Dr. Starner Jones (More Healthcare debate)

[hiwaygal]

LOL!!! I knew if I provided links you would not leave the thread as you "threatened". Interesting how I can back up my 'vitriol' but you haven't provided any data to contradict mine. Who's being vitriolic now?

Those articles were specifically chosen because I knew you would have no qualms with their credibility. There were more articles to choose from, but you would have most likely dismissed them because of their sources. Perhaps you would like to do some reasearch yourself? Google is your friend.

You seem to think that poverty is a result of a lack of education. I would agree to a point but the reason is NOT because poor children are leaving school to work to help provide for their families. That happened in the 20's and 30's. It doesn't happen anymore. I would say that a significant majority of the poor live in our highly developed inner cities where the opportunity for education is free. These kidsa aren't skipping school to work (hell, we can't manage to employ adults). They are skipping school to do God knows what else. Their parents don't enforce the value of an education and the culture of poverty continues.

The articles on entitlement mentality, I believe show a trend where more and more of the younger generation are EXPECTING to be given what used to be earned. They are former "snowflake" children getting older and entering the workforce. The maturity you claim they get that forces them to lose their sense of entitlement (out of necessity) never really happens. While they inevitably mature, the sense of entitlement is still there.

You got something different from those cycle of poverty articles. Those (and others I read while searching) were seeming to imply that the answer to breaking the cycle of poverty is NOT continuing to throw money at it. That is only a band-aid (at best). Although the original intent of the welfare system was to ASSIST and be a band-aid, it has now become a way of life and an expectation (entitlement mentality?).

We, as a culture and society, need to find ways to BREAK the cycle...not just keep giving money away.

[Crow]

I think you've already made up your mind Legacy and nothing I say is going to have any influence on your opinion.

[Legacy Fan]

No. I posted an article/letter as evidence of a problem. You claim the evidence isn't valid, so I requested you provide an example of evidence you'd accept as valid and you tucked your tail (again).
Posted via Barking Hard Mobile

[Crow]

Originally Posted by Legacy Fan

No. I posted an article/letter as evidence of a problem. You claim the evidence isn't valid, so I requested you provide an example of evidence you'd accept as valid and you tucked your tail (again).
Posted via Barking Hard Mobile

You posted an anecdote from one doctor and applied it too far. It isn't me just poo-pooing your ideology - anecdotes do not prove, as a blanket, how the entire system works. You can say it's illustrative of the culture as a whole, but it doesn't really prove anything on a larger scale.

I would accept evidence from a reputable organization that compiled the data that the system needs to be altered.

I like having casual conversations about these issues. All I have ever said is that your story is an anecdote. From there you have assumed several things about what I think and my character and you pretty much ignored my point. If we disagree on that there's no real reason for us to keep talking and I derive no joy from hostile conversations. One doctor's opinion is one doctor's opinion. If I posted another doctor's opinion who disagreed with yours, it would not make it any more representative of the nation.

It is only one example. From one doctor. It may reaffirm your opinion, but it doesn't mean it has application to the entire nation or anything beyond that's doctor's office.

[Legacy Fan]

What I'm saying is that the only evidence that can be applied to accurately portray the problem is anecdotal. I'm not extrapolating the 1 anecdote as a representation of every patient that has ever set foot in the ER.

You're not going to get accurate date from surveys, polls, and the like.

And I'm attacking or assuming (or whatever it is you're getting defensive about) your immediate writing-off of "the anecdote" as a valid form of evidence. It's arrogant behavior - I'm not questioning your character, just ideas.

[Crow]

If you can't get accurate data from surveys, polls, and the like, that doesn't make it true that you can get accurate data from anecdotes even if it's all you have left. How is that an arrogant position to hold?

Am I misunderstanding you or something? Perhaps we have a communication issue. Has to be a failure to communicate.

(Also -why can't you get accurate data from surveys, polls and the like?)

[hiwaygal]

A thought...since this is a "health care" debate, consider the doctors letter as a symptom of a problem.

Even if it's a small symptom, should it just be ignored?

[Tobalaz]

The system itself needs fixing because of 4 things.
1. People will take advantage of the system
2. Those people taking advantage of the system make it harder for those that really need help to get it.
3. It's impossible to get medical insurance if you have a pre-existing condition that requires constant treatment.
4. The system, as is, forces those that only need a little help to go all in or all out.

1. Yes, we see it everyday. When I went to school, in comparison to middle classed kids, the welfare kids in general had more "bling" and nicer vehicles, but were entitled to free lunches while those making "just enough" brown bagged peanut butter every day.

2. Ever have to get foodstamps or medical while you were unemployed? It doesn't matter if you worked your entire life you're treated like shit by caseworkers that tell you clothing, a vehicle, housing, gas, electricity and water are luxury items.

3. If you're at a job on the lower end of the payscale (and face it, with all the outsourcing that's the majority of what's left) you need insurance to foot a chunk of your medical because if they don't, you can't afford food, shelter, clothing or transportation. You don't get your treatments, you're going to be in and out of the hospital enough where your employer is going to replace you with a healthier individual who is going to be there every day. Failure to receive treatments needed to be healthy enough to work is going to make it impossible to hold down a full time job. And god help you if you're single, then the free clinics won't even see you for free so long as you have some type of income.

4. There used to be partial medicade, where limited income people with pre-existing conditions would get healthcare and medicine through the state, allowing them to continue to work and support themselves. This was canceled (crazy huh? it was a measure to SAVE money! ha right!) so if you've got a pre-existing medical problem you have to go for full out disability for any help and then federal medical doesn't kick in for 2 years after disability is rewarded (which nullifies your state medical) which often leads to a patient degenerating to a state where they'll be lucky to make it back into the workforce, making what could have been a productive individual completely reliant on the government for all their needs.

It's a mess and in need of a complete overhaul.