America's CBA

[Danamal]

Just curious to find out what people think of what is taking place in Wisconsin,are you for or against this state doing a way with a worker or a states rights to CBA?


I completely understand that states are having a hard time meeting any sort of fiscal responsibility but I really don't see taking money away from workers as the answer to them being able to balance a budget,there is plenty of fraud, waste and pork in state spending that could be cut before an employee's job or benefits.

The one thing I have noticed in all of this is most states quit paying into there employee pension programs more than a decade ago and yet dip into those funds to the point of bankrupting the pensions that people paid into and yet nobody is held accountable and they want more?
Pretty soon we will all be working at Walmart with healthcare and pension and SSI a distant memory.
This is not a one sided issue this is our jobs as American's,if you question this how do like calling customer service and hearing an accent you cant understand?
Just my opinion,whats yours?

[Greythan]

I don't think the answer is eliminating collective bargaining.

I think the answer requires a long term perspective and that is something that the American public won't support and hence the politicians are always looking for short-term, quick fixes.

One thing for sure: the current system for public employees isn't sustainable. The next big thing to fall, to which you alluded, is the public pension system. Plans are woefully underfunded and the liability associated with those plans increases every year (as longevity expectations increase). Only two answers: cut benefits or increase funding (i.e., increase spending). Its ugly.

[Danamal]

The Ugliness is in the states inability to create new jobs and to constantly squeeze the workers they do have.

Pension programs as they stand now are not sustainable because states quit contributing there share long ago and have basically emptied out the pension escrow's for state debt without paying any of it back!,with zero accountability for what amounts to massive theft and the best part is they want the workers to contribute MORE of there income to the pension system!

It has been stunning and interesting to watch others claim "sacrifices" needed to be made,when the reality is the only ones that are being asked to sacrifice anything is us while the politicians have sacrificed nothing nor have they stopped or changed there own irresponsible ways of running the states into the ground.

The argument that many don't have a pension or any retirement benefit program to look foreword to at all is sad and a very grim reality.
Rather than think for ourselves and say "hey how come ALL of us are getting screwed?"
The media has us screaming at those who have decent jobs with adequate benefit packages so it becomes ok to strip them of healthcare,pension,rights and everything that used to be part of what a career and living in America is all about.

America used to build things,we don't anymore because it costs to much.
Corporations in the united states are making more than ever before so what has changed?
Longer hours,no benefits,less pay,more taxes,more tolls,more everything and there is no end in site as to what they will take away next and it scares me that these things are happening,not so much for me but for my daughter and my grandchildren.

Atleast corporate executives can afford $11,000.00 umbrella holders for there offices and build golf courses on there own property,funny how nobody has ever held a protest march against shit like that...

[Vegasdogg]

CookEmployees.com
Illinois state government salary - Sunshine Review
Illinois Loop: Salaries and Pensions

No public employee in IL should make more than the Gov (approx $150k/yr in IL) I don't GAS if you have a 200 IQ, an MD and two PhD's and invented the cure for cancer, you want money, get a job in the private sector.

The public sector is for people who want safe cushy jobs with low pay but minimal chance of getting fired.

Somewhere along the line, too many lazy MF'rs got it into their heads they were entitled to cradle to grave care

And, the thing is, I'm not against private sector unions, workers should have the right to organize and employers the right to fire them, but the public sector is a whole different ball of wax.

“Courts across the nation also generally held that collective bargaining by government workers should be forbidden on the legal grounds of sovereign immunity and unconstitutional delegation of government powers. In 1943, a New York Supreme Court judge held:

To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous.”

I hear some of those WIS teachers are using sick time to protest. If I were GOV I would have a film crew there and any POS that showed up there after calling in sick would be fired.

And I hear Obama is getting involved. He needs to remember he is POTUS of all Americans, not just ones that got him elected. If the White House is sticking it's nose into the labor problems of a sovereign state as reported today, it is stepping completely out of it's lane. The issue is between the State of Wisconsin and it' public employees. It's not a federal issue.

Furthermore, if the unions and their democratic collaborators don't face the fiscal facts and agree to give up a little; they may succeed in losing the whole ball of wax, when the state, finding that it is unable to sustain their demands, starts laying off workers. THEN WHAT?

Wisconsin is the tip of the iceberg, more and more States are going to have to take extreme measures just to be able to do balance their budget. The days of freebies and non-sense positions in Govt that get paid 100K a year are over. The President may have declared the recession over but reality is another thing. Many States are going to have to overhaul every aspect of their finances in order to balance a budget that was unrealistic to begin with. Contract negotiations with unions are going to get ugly.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Danamal

The Ugliness is in the states inability to create new jobs and to constantly squeeze the workers they do have.

Since when does government create new jobs?

Originally Posted by Danamal

The media has us screaming at those who have decent jobs with adequate benefit packages so it becomes ok to strip them of healthcare,pension,rights and everything that used to be part of what a career and living in America is all about.

Adequate? Are you kidding me? Have you been reading up on this thing, or are you just railing off the cuff? Adequate? Some of these MF'ers make twice and three times what the POTUS makes.

Adequate? Shit.

[Danamal]

There you go Vegas.
I really appreciate seeing your side on this issue because it couldn't be more different than mine and I love how you throw in all the little jabs,good stuff.

Let me try to explain it to you in a term that might be a little up your alley with a state near and dear to me New Jersey,
Not too much unlike Vegas they have Atlantic city and while it isn't even close in revenue to Nevada it is revenue of staggering proportions.

New Jersey has the highest property taxes in the nation.
New Jersey has the highest automobile insurance rates in the country.
New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the country.
New Jersey has toll roads EVERYWHERE and I mean everywhere.

There are currently 35 states in America currently (Including New Jersey) that are facing budget crisis mode and it hasn't happened overnight and it has nothing to do with state employees,the problem is and always will be human,
Greed, corruption, shady deals no bid deals, horrible spending the list goes on and on but to attack people doing there jobs who have agreed contracts in place just because somewhere along the line you feel it isn't right?
Union workers across the country are under siege right now because the country doesn't produce anything anymore and the deals that were put into place aren't sustainable because we outsourced or privatized all the jobs and revenue that was earned by those jobs is now gone.
The last point I can't stress enough is states don't want pensions to go away,it's the hidden taboo in every states budget because they use the money,they don't put in there agreed share(been more than ten years since Jersey paid any of it back or even the interest on the principal they took) and now when the employees who paid into it and need it the most cant get it because the state just decided to take it what do they blame it on? UNIONS!
It's all bullshit designed to keep us all fighting over the "bloated state worker package",all of our jobs should have some form of benefit package and we should all be allowed to retire with some form of pension/401k package,it is only fair and your watching it being taken away right in front of your very eyes and your arguing that if I want a pension or to retire I need to become a doctor or lawyer?
Absolutely the unions have blame in this and as long as human beings are involved are system will always be flawed and sure there can be negotiation and concession but I'm just saying that what we are seeing before us is the beginning of the end of anyone having anything once they can just arbitrarily take it away and dismiss any form of agreed deal.

Everyone in this country has a right to fair and just compensation rather than hiring and illegal at Home Depot,American's used to have more pride than greed,what happened?

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Danamal

Greed, corruption, shady deals no bid deals, horrible spending the list goes on and on but to attack people doing there jobs who have agreed contracts in place just because somewhere along the line you feel it isn't right?

Feel it isn't right? I thought this thread was about CBA's, PW's, and WIS's GOV removing the CBA rights of the Public Workers? The PW's in WIS basically told the Gov and the negotiator to stick in their asses we aren't giving up shit. So when shit hit the fan the GOV said "f**K you we're taking away everything because we don't have the money anyway."

"Oh that's different," said the PW's, "we will cut pay and pay into our own pensions and a bunch of other concessions." Really now? What changed? Because the GOV is saying today, fine but I want your CBA gone. You're right, this is about what you said it was, all the reasons you wrote are very true -- sadly. (And here in Nevada we are dire. I think out shortfall is $123B. Someone is getting cut.)

But to say this move is about what some "feel it isn't right" completely misses the point entirely. It has nothing to do with what is right or wrong or how one feels about unions, or CBA's with PW's. Economics. Math. Addition and subtraction.

(But let me say this - New Jersey is different. That is one fucked up situation. They need a rewind button. I thought this thread was about CBA's and WIS.)


I hope people know how to stock your home with 6 mos worth of food and potable water. Shit is about to get really bad here in 6-10 mos.

[Danamal]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Feel it isn't right? I thought this thread was about CBA's, PW's, and WIS's GOV removing the CBA rights of the Public Workers? The PW's in WIS basically told the Gov and the negotiator to stick in their asses we aren't giving up shit. So when shit hit the fan the GOV said "f**K you we're taking away everything because we don't have the money anyway."

"Oh that's different," said the PW's, "we will cut pay and pay into our own pensions and a bunch of other concessions." Really now? What changed? Because the GOV is saying today, fine but I want your CBA gone. You're right, this is about what you said it was, all the reasons you wrote are very true -- sadly. (And here in Nevada we are dire. I think out shortfall is $123B. Someone is getting cut.)

But to say this move is about what some "feel it isn't right" completely misses the point entirely. It has nothing to do with what is right or wrong or how one feels about unions, or CBA's with PW's. Economics. Math. Addition and subtraction.

(But let me say this - New Jersey is different. That is one fucked up situation. They need a rewind button. I thought this thread was about CBA's and WIS.)


I hope people know how to stock your home with 6 mos worth of food and potable water. Shit is about to get really bad here in 6-10 mos.

Ok Vegas I get your point,let me clarify my position.
The run up to this taking place in Jersey has been The governors attacking the teachers union here and making the teachers out to be the bad guys,just like in Wisconsin it's the state workers.
The airwaves and media are rallying behind the governors and the people are cheering the losses of the workers without realizing there fucking themselves longterm,follow?

The unions got fat and happy and as corrupt as any state but you just don't go from having a job a home a mortgage and health insurance to homeless and destitute in a day,without serious repercussions felt throughout the country,and if you do God help us all.

[Danamal]

YouTube - Gordon Gekko - "I create nothing, I own."

[Brown Warrior]

I'm probably being a dick in some way, but...

At the same time we're trying to rationalize that people making over 250,000 are NOT rich... we're going after teachers? Really? This doesn't bother anybody?

We're concerned with the tax rate for the rich... knowing that GE not only didn't pay taxes last year but got a credit... but we're okay with making a case that teachers are lazy and overpaid?

We're cool with this narrative? We don't wonder who is driving all of this? We seriously don't say, "Hey! I think maybe the rich and big business own government, and the carefully crafted tale we're hearing is so absurd we should probably start getting pissed?"

Just wondering.