Quarterbacks Drafted by Holmgren

[Shep]

Originally Posted by samoth

I'm all for open discussion, but Shep all you ever do is parrot whatever the guys at OBR say and then tear down the people making the real decisions. You backed Joey Harrington, you backed Brady Quinn, but you don't back Holmgren who actually has a track record with training QBs? Sometimes I think you are just trolling the hell out of this forum (and if you are, good work because it seems pretty effective) but the rest of the time I think you really do consider yourself some sort of guru when in reality you don't know shit about quarterback analysis, but continually throw your ever-changing opinions against the wall until one sticks.

Well... I'm not sure how to respond to something that just isn't true. The only point of this post was to insult, and you didn't challenge yourself to even stick loosely to reality.

For starters... c'mon. You don't really think I'm the parrotting type. You might think I'm an arrogant ass, but you don't think I lack for opinions or thoughts. This thread, the one you're talking about, has absolutely nothing to do with the OBR, right? So can you see how right off the bat, you made a sort of bitter, strange assertion that was obviously and completely extracted from your ass?

And then you close with a string of bile that, unfortunately, again makes no sense. This isn't an opinion based thread. It starts with a list of quarterbacks Holmgren was involved in drafting -- facts -- and opens it up to discussion.

It makes you mad because you don't like the list, I guess, so you throw a childish tantrum and attack somebody who didn't attack you first.

Again... at least know that says absolutely nothing about me... but a lot about you.

Try harder. Focus. Concentrate. We're playing at a higher level than stomping our feet and crying that you don't like Shep. We've moved way past that. If you really don't have anything else to say, just don't.

[Shep]

Originally Posted by Alo

Holmgren gave up his GM duties after the '02 season.

What was his role after that? Just coaching? Who became the GM?

[mz.]

YouTube - WORST! COMMERCIAL! EVER!

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Inspecta

Nobody deals in absolutes around here, yes the prevailing opinion is that Mike can find good QB's in the later rounds, that does not mean his judgment is absolute. However can you name me one football guy who is active today who you'd rather have than Mike Holmgren when you want to find a good QB period.

Fixed.

[Inspecta]

Originally Posted by Shep

I'd have to think about it.

I'd look around at the top young QBs and start with that. I like the move the Jets made to get Sanchez. I like the Aaron Rodgers pick, made even though Favre was there.

I don't think FINDING good quarterbacks after round 1 has been the Holmgren strong suit you want to make it. As a GM, his best was Seneca Wallace.

Along with Wolf, he had more misses than hits. Overall, I say Holmgren was 2 of 11 finding future starters for other teams in later rounds.

I don't think Holmgren has ever been accused of being a personnel guru. His claim to fame is developing quarterbacks.

My concern with the McCoy pick is that Holmgren asserted one of his lesser skills, his personnel acumen. If the whispers are true, Heckert wasn't on board.

2 of 11, and how much dedication, how much film study you think he performed on the other 9 guys while he had Favre and Hasselbeck? Probably not THAT much. Again, he took fliers on late round guys and ended up never needing them. I don't see how that's an indictment on him as an evaluator of talent. Especially where we got Colt, I mean at that pick you'd have to be fucking retarded to pass on him at that point. Nearly 0 invested in that QB, and Holmgren and this part is key THE REST OF THE BROWNS FRONT OFFICE did not see ANY QB in the 1st round they wanted in the fold. I'm sure they made a play at Bradford and he was the ONLY top QB worth a 1st round pick.


But again we're back to you slowly developing a antagonistic position against Holmgren because he didn't take the QB you fell in love with. That's basically where we're at right now.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Shep

Two things:

1. If you don't like QB threads, why are you such a regular? Is it that you like discussing quarterback threads more than quarterbacks? Is it me (duh)?

2. Why is your participation in every discussion entirely beside the actual point, and more about the poster and the merits of the thread?

3. Why do we keep pretending that quarterback threads AREN'T the most popular ones on this site? The market decides... and over and over it decides that quarterback threads rule.

That is three things.

1: Look at the front page. Eight QB related threads on the front page alone. Yeah, I clicked on the first one available to comment about it. It is fucking ridiculous Deal with it. Or not.

2: It isn't. Nice try(not really). I, as well as numerous others, have already discussed Holgren and his track record in NUMEROUS threads now. There is nothing more for me to add to the discussion. I've said what I wanted to say.

3: Whose pretending? Of course they are. They always end up calling someone out as that someone makes three posts to every other persons one post. They also, ironically, usually have numerous people inadvertently making them appear popular by complaining that the board for whatever reason MUST revolve around all QB, all the time.

[mz.]

Originally Posted by Inspecta

But again we're back to you slowly developing a antagonistic position against Holmgren because he didn't take the QB you fell in love with. That's basically where we're at right now.

I don't think that's it, Sean. I'd wager that it's way less about Holmgen not drafting a guy he loved but rather Holmgren drafting a guy he didn't love. The former has no room for debate whereas the latter we can debate all day.

I mean, that's where I sit, so perhaps I'm just projecting.

[Shep]

No! You're misrepresenting me.

This thread isn't about McCoy. It's about Holmgren as a talent evaluator, something he's taken plenty of hits on over the years.

If you want to lead it back to McCoy, I certainly see the link because McCoy is Holmgren's pick, not Heckert's.

To make it absolutely clear: I like Holmgren. I was happy when he was brought on. I was even happier when Heckert was brought in because I've always felt that Holmgren isn't a star as a GM.

I agree on drafting backups. That makes Hasselbeck and Brunell happy accidents that gave Green Bay good return on investment... not calculated brilliance. Unlike McCoy, they were never really in a position to start for their original team.

Holmgren has had a hand in acquiring three starting QBs so far -- Favre, Hasselbeck, and Delhomme. Favre is often credited as Wolf's master stroke. I'm not sure whether to include McCoy yet, but he is drafted into a situation that at least gives him the opportunity to become a starter.

I think Holmgren missed on Clausen and I don't have a high degree of confidence in McCoy as an NFL starter. I'm not frothing at the mouth and i do see the logic of it as a value pick.

Those are my real opinions. Most of what's applied to me is only done so because the real opinions are pretty smart and tough to go all batshit over.

Originally Posted by Inspecta

2 of 11, and how much dedication, how much film study you think he performed on the other 9 guys while he had Favre and Hasselbeck? Probably not THAT much. Again, he took fliers on late round guys and ended up never needing them. I don't see how that's an indictment on him as an evaluator of talent. Especially where we got Colt, I mean at that pick you'd have to be fucking retarded to pass on him at that point. Nearly 0 invested in that QB, and Holmgren and this part is key THE REST OF THE BROWNS FRONT OFFICE did not see ANY QB in the 1st round they wanted in the fold. I'm sure they made a play at Bradford and he was the ONLY top QB worth a 1st round pick.


But again we're back to you slowly developing a antagonistic position against Holmgren because he didn't take the QB you fell in love with. That's basically where we're at right now.

[Inspecta]

Originally Posted by Shep

This thread isn't about McCoy. It's about Holmgren as a talent evaluator, something he's taken plenty of hits on over the years.


If you want to lead it back to McCoy, I certainly see the link because McCoy is Holmgren's pick, not Heckert's.

Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't anybody? I mean, you have posted a thread obviously calling into question Holmgren's ability to pick a good QB, and the only way that relates to the Cleveland Browns is in the Colt McCoy pick as you only posted Holmgren's draft picks, not his FA or trade acquisitions.

Those are my real opinions. Most of what's applied to me is only done so because the real opinions are pretty smart and tough to go all batshit over.

Wanted to throw a lil' bit more raw meat in the thread there?

Let other people tell you your opinions are smart, when guys tell everybody they're smart it never endears them to anybody.




And to MZ, your assertion may be correct on the inverse being true that it's more about hating the McCoy pick than missing on the Clausen pick, but it's still all the same. Holmgren did not behave as Shep wanted him to behave and now he's the mortal enemy of shep (hyperbole fellas)

[Sez.EJ]

Originally Posted by Inspecta

So what exactly is the point of the thread?

Are you asserting that Holmgren is indeed NOT perfect when it comes to picking QB's?

If that was your entire point, then we might need to file this thread in "D" for "Duh"

Shep, we are all well aware that you don't like the McCoy pick. We get it, trust us. WE GET IT.

I just don't understand why you feel the need to tear down the most established, respected and decorated football guy we've had running our team since we came back. And the sole reason this thread exists is because he did not pick the QB you wanted him to pick.

So let's see, who do you think knows more about QB's. Shep or Mike Holmgren?

I'm not trying to bust your balls too much fella, but you create these types of threads then look around bewildered when you get negative push back. It's a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts "Everybody attacks me all the time" then you go and throw pieces of raw meat out there like this thread to ensure exactly that happens.

So to go back to the thread topic, yeah Mike took a lot of shots in the dark in later rounds on some guys that didn't rise to the top, but during his entire coaching career, how many seasons did Holmgren spend looking for a QB? Not many, if any at all. He always had one. Kinda hard to crack the starting lineup when you have a perennial starter in front of you that never goes down with injury.

WOW.. could not have said it better myself..This has been said to Shep dozens of times..he just doesn't get it.. people get tired of the same thing from him over and over.. But HE IS THE VICTIM....or should I say..he plays himself as the victim.. Shep.. He's right...you bring this on yourself..it's a broken record, my man.. We love ya.. but if you don't have anything new.... why start a thread on a topic you have made yourself plainly clear about 500 times in the past 3 months.

Perhaps Danimal has it right..take a month off and see what is really happening during training camp.

[Shep]

Three whiffs. And uninspired swings, at that. The last one is downright laughable.

I'm feeling like I overrated you. You're just stuck on one note: Bashing me and bashing threads. I would LOVE to see you talk about the actual topics, just to see if you can be interesting.

But I've asked for that before... and this seems to be your thing.

Originally Posted by King of Kings

That is three things.

1: Look at the front page. Eight QB related threads on the front page alone. Yeah, I clicked on the first one available to comment about it. It is fucking ridiculous Deal with it. Or not.

2: It isn't. Nice try(not really). I, as well as numerous others, have already discussed Holgren and his track record in NUMEROUS threads now. There is nothing more for me to add to the discussion. I've said what I wanted to say.

3: Whose pretending? Of course they are. They always end up calling someone out as that someone makes three posts to every other persons one post. They also, ironically, usually have numerous people inadvertently making them appear popular by complaining that the board for whatever reason MUST revolve around all QB, all the time.

[Shep]

Oh, lord, Sez, come on already. These kinds of posts are just idiotic. Either you have something to say on the topic of Holmgren as a QB talent evaluator (based on his record) or you don't.

You waste WAY too much time repeating the same old shit about me, over and over and over. I'm oddly flattered by the attention, but I'm not the topic here.

Let it go. There are like two people left who feel obsessively inclined to turn every discussion I start into a discussion about me. It's stale and lazy.

C'mon, man. Either get into the discussion or skip it in protest.

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

WOW.. could not have said it better myself..This has been said to Shep dozens of times..he just doesn't get it.. people get tired of the same thing from him over and over.. But HE IS THE VICTIM....or should I say..he plays himself as the victim.. Shep.. He's right...you bring this on yourself..it's a broken record, my man.. We love ya.. but if you don't have anything new.... why start a thread on a topic you have made yourself plainly clear about 500 times in the past 3 months.

Perhaps Danimal has it right..take a month off and see what is really happening during training camp.