Quarterbacks Drafted by Holmgren

[Shep]

Sooooo...

Okay? I'm not sure where you stand on the discussion at this point. I'm only seeing you trying to tell me how I really feel (!).

Evs. It's cool.

Originally Posted by Inspecta

Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't anybody? I mean, you have posted a thread obviously calling into question Holmgren's ability to pick a good QB, and the only way that relates to the Cleveland Browns is in the Colt McCoy pick as you only posted Holmgren's draft picks, not his FA or trade acquisitions.




Wanted to throw a lil' bit more raw meat in the thread there?

Let other people tell you your opinions are smart, when guys tell everybody they're smart it never endears them to anybody.




And to MZ, your assertion may be correct on the inverse being true that it's more about hating the McCoy pick than missing on the Clausen pick, but it's still all the same. Holmgren did not behave as Shep wanted him to behave and now he's the mortal enemy of shep (hyperbole fellas)

[YtownBacker]

What's laughable about this whole thing is the fact that Holmgren learned from a guy in San Fran that gave him his start and Wolf in GB. He was taught to take a QB about every year. Fact is while Shep tries to tear the guy down he was drafting QBs late in the draft while he already had a proven pro bowl starter running his teams.

They were guys that showed potential and mostly long shots but guys like Brunnel and Hasselback were developed and brought the team some quality draft picks.

Shep makes it sound like the guy was taking 1st rounders and the teams were sinking while he couldn't develop a guy to perform under center.

Bottom line is this is all because he ignored Clausen and said he wished he liked him more then turned around and took McCoy. While Shep thinks Clausen will be the next coming for some reason he feels he must tear down McCoy and attack Holmgren.

Personally, I love having a guy who will draft QBs late in the draft every year and hope to find a diamond in the rough.

How serious can you take a guy who tried to sell us all on Harrington, Quinn and Smith as top first round guys. Also a gu who wanted us to take Jimmy fucknuts at #7 when every GM in pro football passed on him.

[Inspecta]

My stance is this.

Mike Holmgren is the most legitimate football mind we've had since our return.

Mike Holmgren has a history of success with QB's. He's never floundered around for several seasons trying to find one.

Mike Holmgren loved Colt McCoy at 85 and pulled rank to draft him.

A pick at that stage of the game is relatively low risk

Because it's a low risk pick it's not that important of a pick in the grand scheme of things.

If Colt pans out he looks like a genius again, if not then it's no big deal.

That's where I stand.

And since you started the thread shep, you are completely open for people to disceminate what your opinion is, or your motivation for starting the thread. That's the price you pay when you start a thread.

[samoth]

Ok Shep, by your own admission Holmgren picked McCoy and Heckert dictated the rest of the draft. So shouldn't you be more upset with Heckert for not picking Clausen? Heckert only has a decade of solid drafting experience for a consistent playoff team to fall back on, so surely he knows not what he does.

[Legacy Fan]

I think attacking "Holmgren's record" or "pointing out his dings" or whatever need to have a serious disclaimer before them. He's currently in an entirely different situation than he was in GB or SEA.

I mean, if we are sticking to the "if you don't have a franchise quarterback, then you are looking for one" line of thinking, that's the lens each selection in that list needs to be looked at with. Favre, then Hasselbeck pretty much had the starter roles locked up during each of those drafts.

I don't even really see how this is anything more than looking for more names to add as faux data to support an imaginary point.

[Alo]

Originally Posted by Shep

What was his role after that? Just coaching? Who became the GM?

Haskell became the GM. Holmgren certainly had input, but he wasn't the Decider.

Earlier this year, Daniel Jeremiah tried to make the case that Holmgren would love Tebow, based on how he drafted a very successful college QB in David Greene.

ESPN's Mike Sando & others responded that the Greene pick was made by Haskell, who loves drafting high character, highly productive college players, even if they lack great physical tools. Greene is one example of that. Lofa Tatupu is another.

[Alo]

Originally Posted by samoth

Ok Shep, by your own admission Holmgren picked McCoy and Heckert dictated the rest of the draft. So shouldn't you be more upset with Heckert for not picking Clausen? Heckert only has a decade of solid drafting experience for a consistent playoff team to fall back on, so surely he knows not what he does.

Yep. Passing on Quinn in favor of 2nd rounder Kevin Kolb was an unpardonable offense.

[Greythan]

Added the round the QB was selected:

Green Bay
1992, Ty Detmer (9th round)
1993, Mark Brunell (5th round)
1995, Jay Barker (5th round)
1996, Kyle Wachholtz (7th round
1997, Ronnie McAda (undrafted, according to NFL.com)
1998, Matt Hasselbeck (6th round)

Seattle
1999, Brock Huard (3rd round)
2001, Josh Booty (6th round)
2002, Jeff Kelly (7th round)
2003, Seneca Wallace (4th round)
2005, David Greene (3rd round)

Let's break this down.

Green Bay
Holmgrem's team drafted/acquired 6 QB's on Shep's list. They spent no more than a 5th round pick on any of these six. Of the six, Brunell and Hasselbeck went on to pretty productive careers for a 5th/6th round pick respectively. Considering Brett Favre was starting a HoF career during this period as the starter, I'd call this track record nothing short of sterling. Truly top notch.

Seattle
In Holmgren's first year (1999), the team went 9-7 with Kitna as the starter. The team made the playoffs and lost in the first round to Miami 20-17. Respectable. Seattle fans might have felt they had their guy in Kitna. A reasonable assumption.

However, Holmgren must have had reservations about Kitna. He spent a 3rd round pick going into that year on a QB in the '99 draft (Huard). This proved prophetic as the 2000 team struggled to a 6-10 record and Kitna gave way to Huard for the last four games. Huard must not have shown enough, so...

... in 2001 he acquired a former draft pick (Hasselbeck) and drafted a late round QB (Booty). It worked pretty well as the 2001 team, led by Hasselbeck, posted a 9-7 record just missing out on the playoffs. He had found his starting QB.

In 2002, he spent a 7th round pick on Kelly (depth/developmental pick). In 2003, he proceeded to go on a consecutive playoff run lasting 5 years. During that time he drafted two more later round QB's (following his pattern).

Holmgren has coached/GM'd teams to consistent playoff berths and a Super Bowl victory. He did all this never spending more than a 3rd round pick on a QB.

I'm trying to figure out how you can look at this through a lens of failure (i.e., "only" 2 for 11 became productive, Pro Bowl caliber QB's.) I actually see this as an exemplary level of success.

You say tomato, I say ..... well ... however that goes.

[lemosley01]

That list makes me apprehensive.

2 out of 11 players that he drafted turned out to be 'good', not great.

Holmgren did develop Favre, but Favre was a near 1st round pick, not a gem he found in the 6th round.

How much work did he do with Montana? I'm not familiar with that part of MH's history. Montana was later pick, though.

The point I see is we're putting an awful lot of (IMO blind) faith into a guy who has a spotty track record as of late. AND he won't be the one developing our QBs.

[Danamal]

Shep post's all day long.
Shep loves QB's.
I have no problem with any of this ,I just find it comical that out of everything the Browns have done people still continue to engage Shep on his Gay man crush on QB's,(not that theres anything wrong with it...)

[Greythan]

Hasselbeck and Brunnell are 3 time Pro Bowlers. They're just "good"? Can you remember the last time we had a QB with 3 Pro Bowls? (I don't even know the answer to that, did Kosar?)

Here's the list of 11 prior QB's drafted by New England before the struck gold with Brady and went on a tear:

Michael Bishop
Jay Walker
Drew Bledsoe
Scott Zolak
Tommy Hodson
Rich Gannon
Walter Lewis
Tony Eason
Tom Ramsey
Steve Sandon
Brian Buckley

A few first rounders in there too. (Eason and Bledsoe)

Acquiring and developing QB's is hard. Don't read too much into this "2 for 11" stuff?

[DeadWombat]

Shep, you seem to be attacking Holmgren very unfairly. Just for shits and giggles, lets take a look at all the amazing QBs that Jerry Jones (GM of the Cowboys and one of the most well respected GMs of all time) has drafted since he first took the GM spot in 1989. EDIT: Damn, Greythan came up with a better example than me.


1989: Troy Aikman
1989: Steve Walsh
1991: Bill Musgrave
2001: Quincy Carter
2003: Tony Romo
2007: Isaiah Stanback


Gosh..... he didn't draft as many QBs as Holmgren did (I doubt anyone drafts as many QBs as Holmgren, lol).... but he only found 2 good QBs out of the 18 years he's been the GM! Aikman we all know is an HoF'er and Romo is great as well, but otherwise you have a list of mediocre QBs. Carter had one good year under Parcells, but otherwise sucked. Think of all the great later round QBs Jerry Jones has passed on! Brett Favre! Tom Brady! Kurt Warner! Matt Schaub! All the others I don't care to name!

This guy must suck horribly at judging QB talent.


Or maybe he just drafted project QBs because he was set at the position with Aikman for what seemed like forever.... Almost like how Holmgren likes to draft project QBs as well. Most of Holmgren's QB picks come from the 5th or 6th rounds. Kind of hard to consistently post a great QB track record when you're scrapping the bottom of the barrel in every draft. You'll find a Romo or Brady every once in a while, which is exactly what Holmgren loves to do.