On the Positive Side...

[ramrod]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Ramrod, you always present your arguements extremely well. The first time I saw you debating people there were about 20 different fans thinking they'd straighten you out. At the end of the thread - I was really impressed with how you backed every statement you made and sold your arguement.

Here's where I'm at about this QB thing. Alex Smith and Jamarcus Russell were #1 overall picks of the litter and it didn't work for either franchise.

If Flacco went to the Lions instead of the Ratbirds, he'd be on shoulder seperation #2 already just like Matthew Stafford. Mark Sanchez looks to be heading into the same direction DA headed with his fanbase regardless of his record the first year starting. And I think we won MORE because of the QB in 2007 than the Jets just did in 2009.

How many of these 1st round gotta haves are pannign out even in cities where there's TONS supporting cast and margin of error allotted from the defense? Honestly, has Joe Flacco or Matt Ryan progressed or regressed?

What I'm getting at here is not everybody joins rosters loaded with playoff talent the way Ben and Rivers did or Dan Marino did some 20 years earlier.

Holmgren TRIED to make a trade for Bradford but St Louis knew they were never gonna get a better opportunity to snag their version of the right QB. We COULD tried to sign Drew Brees when Dr Andrews gave him a great prognosis for returning to form. Who here was posting let's go get Drew Brees? New orleans didn't have to compete with 1 team to sign him when Miami lost interest.

We HAVE signed 2 first round QBs. Couch got Klinglered the way Stafford is right now. And Quinn was Savage knee jerking to say he drafted a QB in round 1 even when no other franchises looked interested in him for that round.

I TOTALLY understand we need the RIGHT guy at QB. However, if you don't have the people to protect such an expensive investment - what good is having a Matthew Stafford? You not only have to pick the RIGHT guy - but you gotta have somethign better than Jeff Backus protecting his blind side or you 2 consecutive seasons of shoulder injuries. I haven't really been wowed by ANY QBs coming out of the draft as round one prospects. Which recent first round QB can carry their team to victory besides Philip Rivers or Aaron Rodgers (who took 4 years to start game 1)? That reminds me they're not exactly growing on trees. It's also why we firmly understand the next Tom Brady and Peyton Manning don't come around every draft.
- Tom F. (And on behalf of Grimmreaper3)

Mr. Tom,

Very ver good stuff sir, as usual. Here is where Im at on this thing.

I know this, you HAVE to have a franchise QB in *todays* NFL to have any shot at winning. There is no Trent Dilfer scenarios that would work today. The ONLY thing I can see is maybe just maybe the Jets. That defense is unreal and Sanchez is just terrible. So when I speak on this subject, I come off shep like and know we will not do shit until we get a franchise QB. My philosphy has always been shoot until you make it, period.

Franchise QB's dont grow on trees and the odds are you will miss on that franchise guy that you thought was the guy. But drafting them in the first round and early gives you the best chance to hit on one. So if we want to contend for a super bowl, year in year out we shoot until we hit. If we want to squeak into the playoffs only to lose in the first round and thats our only goal then thats fine.

I agree with you have to have a team around him for him to be successful. No doubt. But its easier to get a good LT or RT and wr's and a RB or any position for that matter than a good QB. And thats a fact. I really think its that easy. Plus we already have our QB's blind side protected pretty good with Joe Thomas. Unless of course our frachise QB is a lefty. If your guy is not there in the draft when you pick it comes down to this......
A.) trade up and give up whatever it takes to get him or
B.) draft the best player available and start building that team and hope that next year you get you guy.

But the fact of the matter is Browns football will not change until we get that guy. It is what it is and I want our team to be competing for a super bowl every year. I want the playoffs to be a no brainer every year. Thats when Ill be REALLY excited on Sundays. Right now Im just excited.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Shep

I think we have a team that's a pretty damn good "cockpit" for a quarterback and will be even better by next year with another lineman added. With Lauvao healthy and Pashos back in, we'll have a Top 10 line. Next year, it could be Top 3. LT and C are cornerstones and we're really good there.

Of course you do, you've convinced yourself of it because you want that sexy pick so bad you can taste it.

Anyways, i'm still awaiting the explanation of how an O.L. featuring an average 31 year old LG likely to be replaced by Lauvao and a bad right side of the line featuring "depth" of a bunch of guys on the wrong side of 30 is a "top 3 line". We either need a RG and RT or a LG and RT. There's no amount of wishing it away. Tony Pashos-31 years old next season, St. Clair-34, Womack-33 at the start of next year, Billy Yates-31 and STILL a backup.

Tony Pashos is on team #3 in the last four seasons. He's never been a longterm answer and at 31 years of age he is not going to just morph into that top notch answer at right tackle. Shit so far he can't even beat out Johnny St. Turnstile for the job.

Originally Posted by Shep

I like our running backs and tight ends a lot. We need a faster scarier receiver. We have a defense that isn't a sieve and can keep us in games.

You like a RB who has been plagued with knee injuries his entire College career, currently on I.R. for... A knee injury, an 28 year old after this season career backup, a short yardage RB/FB combo and an unproven 6th rounder? Great. We still need our longterm bellcow.

I just schooled you on our defense two days ago. You're really going to go there again?

ONCE AGAIN: Eric Barton-34 next season, David Bowens-34, Scott Fujita-32, Sheldon Brown-32, Kenyon Coleman-32, Derreck Roberston-29(and STILL a backup, he isn't good), Shaun Rogers-32, Robaire Smith-33, Nick Sorenson-33(and STILL a backup AFTER a decade in the league), Brian Schaefering-28(And a career Practice squad/backup).

Myself and others are still awaiting your explanation of how seven starters on the wrong side of 30 are going to defy nature and reverse the aging process. Since you're back to Wednesdays mantra, tell us HOW it is going to happen. Tell us HOW a below average D run by greybeards is going to suddenly turn good. How 28-33 year old career backups are going to morph into the elite starters we need.

Originally Posted by Shep

It's not all that complicated, no matter how much shit Veg or Danamal tries to throw my way. If you want to be honest and accurate about the state of the Browns? That's it. We're really weak in the passing game. It has to be fixed. We need a #1 QB and a #1 WR.

No, it really isn't complicated at all. We have an old right side of the O.L. getting older, we lack an elite bellcow RB and our defense is bottom 25, old and quickly getting older.

Originally Posted by Shep

Accept it or live a lie. Your call, guys.

The only one living a lie is you. So are you going to address what I continually bring up and explain your conclusions or are you going to ignore it a fourth time and return to this "guys all we need is a QB" mantra?

Come on dude, you keep telling us we're "living a lie" and all we need is a #1 WR and 1st round QB then we'll be this uber elite team so give us specifics. Let's hear it, in depth WHY we are liars and wrong. Explain it to us. Going quiet and popping up talking about QB's isn't doing that.

[Shep]

No, K, my opinion is not brain masturbation to service my zombie-like need for a QB. I we didn't need one, I wouldn't feel this way. We do, obviously... so I do.

If we didn't have a great center and a great left tackle, I wouldn't feel this way. But we do... and I do.

You're trying to apply absurd mental process to me when it's really pretty simple and tough to disagree with my assertions. We're strong at other places on the team... but we suck at QB and WR.

I think that would be the prevailing global opinion. One doesn't really have to do much brainfuckery to get there. Sky's up, water's wet, shit like that.

And you last "challenge" was laughably inappropriate given that I've pointed out many areas of the team I think are strong and would be even stronger with a really good quarterback and a legit WR. I think we'd win 10-12 games. We have a great set of DBs, an excellent line, strong and versatile backs and TEs, a pack of decent 2nd and 3rd WRs, and a defense that's look pretty damn strong overall.

We're really weak at one thing: Passing the football. And it's because we don't have a top 25 QB or a top 25 WR.

It's not tough to understand.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Shep

No, K, my opinion is not brain masturbation to service my zombie-like need for a QB. I we didn't need one, I wouldn't feel this way. We do, obviously... so I do.

Sure it is, you've rewritten the fantasy as reality over and over trying to pain it like we're the New England Patriots with Trent Dilfer at QB and no WR to throw to. It's been brought up in depth over and over and over and now how we're NOT okay and still have ALOT of rebuilding to do.

Originally Posted by Shep

You're trying to apply absurd mental process to me when it's really pretty simple and tough to disagree with my assertions. We're strong at other places on the team... but we suck at QB and WR.

Dude myself and anyone who has spent a month posting with you knows your mental process. All QB, all the time. Fuck everything else go get the hyped up QB and watch him lose.

It isn't hard at all to disagree with you. I've done it. In depth as a matter of fact. We're not a great team missing two key pieces. We're a rebuilding team missing about 5 or 6 key pieces. Key pieces preventing the team from being built how Holmgren wants it built.

Originally Posted by Shep

And you last "challenge" was laughably inappropriate given that I've pointed out many areas of the team I think are strong and would be even stronger with a really good quarterback and a legit WR. I think we'd win 10-12 games. We have a great set of DBs, an excellent line, strong and versatile backs and TEs, a pack of decent 2nd and 3rd WRs, and a defense that's look pretty damn strong overall.

It isn't laughable at all. You sit around pontificating on all things QB all the time while proclaiming everything else is fine. Just because you SAY "hey the D and RB's and career backup/fill in Tony Pashos are aces" doesn't make it true. I've been respectful enough to go into the WHY I say what I am saying and the HOW these things AREN'T "just great." If you want to debate it and shit, i'm just asking for some reciprocation.

I wat to know the why's and how's you've come to the conclusion 31 year old Tony Pashos is going to morph into an answer at right tackle. Team #4, the 3rd one in four years and he hasn't yet. So, how is he going to do it now that he's at the age 300+ pound Olinemen start winding down?

You keep saying in absolutes, as if it's a fact that we have a top 10 offensive line, top 3 potential with old players. As i've stayed we have a few issues with that. Eric Steinbach is also on the wrong side of 30. As we are aware from last year he's bulked up, something he has had an issue with his entire career. As part of the aging process carrying excess weight, especially weight that takes alot of hard work to keep on becomes more difficult. He's been a solid but unspectacular LG his entire career which is going on what, year #8 as a starter? Year #9? So what do we do with that? There are three crucial positions on the offensive line: Left tackle, left guard and center.

So knowing that he's getting long in the tooth and already struggling to carry the weight needed to play left guard how our Front office wants him to play, and really kinda needs him to play at in the AFCN what do we do? Do we put Lauvao there, which he'd be great at? Okay, so we do that. Then what do we do with the right side of the line? The current options are Pashos, St. Tunstile and Womack. All three are old, Turnstiles downward slide already started before he got here, Womacks started as well just not quite as bad. As everyone knows when players crash? They crash. It comes on quick. So what do we do? How is this the makings of a top 10 O.L., and how is there potential for it to be top 3?

I figure we'll start with the O.L. and go from there. Fair enough?

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Masters

Tom, great Sutff.

Two prime examples where there were few pieces around those players. I mean sure SF has Gore, but that was the only piece they had on that team. Of course I never thought Alex Smith would pan out no matter where you put him.

At least DA could pass for more TDs than INTs that year. Heck, DA could at least pass on something other than a PA pass where the D totally sold out on the run. Sanchez is looking like an example of having all the pieces in place to ease the the burden on a rookie QB and it still not working due to grabbing a QB in the 1st round because you felt you had to.

I'd say last season Flacco progressed, by seasons end. He took his lumps early on when teams made adjustments after getting more and more film on him. It's the way of the NFL, adjustment, counter adjustment, counter counter adjustment.....

Matt Ryan I did not really see progress from him last year. We'll have to see how it goes. It is entertaining, at least to me, to see all the hoop-la people and media were making of him after his rookie year all but dry up after last season.

Let's be fair, we think CLE tried to trade for Bradford. None of us really know for sure.

Philip Rivers got to sit for 2 years before being put into action, on a team that had LT, Gates, and a solid D. Of course unfortunately for SD, their GM isn't always the sharpest and he kept the wrong QB, while getting nothing for the SB winning one.

Thanks Masters! Well done! Some very good points especially about the trade effort for Bradford thing. Like Golfer added - you never know if it was just a quick passing question or what. And you're right on the money about Sanchez. Make no mistake, the NY media will emphasize there's 3 fifferent first round picks stating on the oline, their TE Dustin Keller is a 1st round pick (and a good one IMO), Edwards is a #3 overall pick and Santonio Holmes will soon join the mix as another 1st round pick. Brian Schottenheimer's future rides on the development of Sanchez. He's either gonna get a Head Coaching gig if successful or he's gonna get demoted to Broom Closet Coordinator. Not only that but the Rex Ryan honeymoon might lose the word honey real soon. Isn't wonderful how helpful Braylon was to another struggling passing game Monday Night?

Here's the scary thing about TRYING to find the right guy as early as the pick of the QB litter:
Drew Bledsoe or Rick Mirer,
Tim Couch or Donovan McNabb or Akili Smith,
Alex Smith or Aaron Rodgers,
Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf,
Jamarcus Russell or Brady Quinn (ECSTATIC we took Joe Thomas at #3 overall),
Vince Young or Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler,

SOME of those years were WONDERFUL choices IF you made the right one. However, some of those years SUCKED to be in such desperate need with the pick of the litter but there wasn't anything there for that particular team. We OFTEN excuse Couch as getting Klinglered (Riff's term); BUT how much better off was Philly for McNabb when you really think about it? If we weren't RE-entering the league who would have drafted first? Philly, and their level of suckage at the time earned them that spot.

The year I moved to Nashville - TN was taking a TON of flack for daring to draft the non-prototypical QB to get them out of the funk of capped out football performance. Lucky for him, Kerry Collins had a passer rating of approx 42.7% as the team started 0-4. VY enters the starting lineup and wins 8 of the next 12 while erasing seven 2nd half deficits. Do you know what his critics asked about the rookie? Oh yaaa, what's his passer rating? It was 25% higher than the veteran WITH the NFL gun. I don't care if the dude was throwing sky hooks down the field when he only had Bobby Wade and Drew Bennett to throw to and they continued to win in spite of it all. Alot of people choosing to see only the head condom & Wonderlic score never to recognize that GREAT vision at the speed of the game does MORE for a split second decision than an analogy using cats and dogs as well as a #2 pencil.

And then we have to ask ourselves - just how necessary was it for SD to use their #1 overall pick on a QB when it was gonna be the season Bress was ready to breakout? They were 1 big play shy of VERY big things that post season. Can a #1 overall or a trade down for other gems at other skilled positions have provided that 1 play their season was shortened by? I gotta think so. And without excuses, what QB has won a Superbowl between Brees and Rivers at this time? And he did it with New Orleans for those of you that don't believe in voo doo.

We ALL want a great QB because our history reminds us of how fun the football was that came with that kind of leader. However, I don't want the Browns to suck bad enough to draft the first QB next year. AND haven't we seen countless good QBs come from very unpredictable backgrounds ranging from grocery stores, Arena Leagues, NFL Europe or the CFL? SOME guys weren't even drafted. Some came from utopian college environments where going to a bad NFL team is quite a culture shock.

I'm not SOLD on the criteria they assess all these QBs on because it's scripted to the strengths usually; and there's NO time constraints, bad protections (we always see from BAD teams like Mr Stafford can assure us), or tight coverages with closing speeds of an NFL corner. Some of these are indoors with NO climate or wind. Don't get me wrong it was nice to see that Kyle Boller could throw a football 65 yards further from 1 knee that he could from his back. I was impressed he could actually keep the ball in bounds when he threw from a knee; because I haven't seen it since when he's getting paid and using both legs. That's why you gotta hire an agent that can hypnotize people.
- Tom F.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Prophet King just made a post about chasing the Dragon, I think that applies to QB's in general, not just Derek Anderson or South Park related drug references. Every team that doesn't have their solution at QB in place already is effectively chasing the dragon as well.

Here's the scary thing about TRYING to find the right guy as early as the pick of the QB litter:
Drew Bledsoe or Rick Mirer,
Tim Couch or Donovan McNabb or Akili Smith,
Alex Smith or Aaron Rodgers,
Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf,
Jamarcus Russell or Brady Quinn (ECSTATIC we took Joe Thomas at #3 overall),
Vince Young or Matt Leinart or Jay Cutler,

You could've gone either way on a lot of those scenarios and many teams did. It's hard to know if a guy is the real deal coming out of college. I think the pro game offers a lot of pressure in contrast to the college game. In College, it seems like the games are still 'fun' but once you're in the pro's theres a real serious vibe to the NFL that I think a lot of players, QB's esepcially, have a tough time adjusting to.

I figure we'll start with the O.L. and go from there. Fair enough?

KoK this goes back to what Holmgren said in one of his earlier press conferences, he said youi build teams from the point of attack (AKA: The Lines) and grow outward. It makes sense, those guys are down in the trenches and they do the ugliest work in football, you need to know the guys you have on the line are going to get the job done, that allows the rest of the team to run smoother.

We have issues on BOTH sides of the ball, and look at our team's play as a result. I think there's a lot of merit to this argument.

Lastly, Shep, I like that you're sticking to your guns. I agree that we NEED our QB of the future in place and I will always agree with you on that front until we have a long(er) term solution in place. The thing I don't agree with is our "need for a top #25 WR" it would be nice to have but WR's are not a rare commodity. New wide-out's break out of the fold and emerge as potent threats every single season, why not us?

It's the QB play...

[Tobalaz]

What's the biggest difference in KC this season?
Did they turn over the roster?
No.
They just brought in experienced and intelligent coordinators.

Sometimes it makes me think, do we have the right guys running the show?

[Shep]

The Cheifs lack the quarterback to be a series contender. Period.

[Tobalaz]

Dear god....
Everything is a qb thread.
All I was saying is KC went out and got a good oc and a good dc, both who had recently failed as head coaches but both knew their jobs well.
Why can't we do that?

[hammertime]

KC looks to be our competition in finding a franchise qb also.

Matt Cassell is gonna fool anybody.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Originally Posted by Tobalaz

All I was saying is KC went out and got a good oc and a good dc, both who had recently failed as head coaches but both knew their jobs well.
Why can't we do that?

This is something I have wondered as well. When we last cleaned house, I thought it would be a great opportunity to bring in some coaches with a bit of a winning pedigree, to help change the mind set then. Well now that we've got Holmgren and Co. running the show, we have that.

Daboll will either turn it around or he will probably lose his job it's as easy as that.

Ryan isn't a good DC in my books, he's not a bad one either. He'll probably always have a job in the NFL because of his name, his intelligence and his enthusiasm as a coach. I don't know if he'll find his groove here in Cleveland or if he'll get another shot on another team should he not pan out for us.

I don't think it's entirely the coaches, or the QB or any one area of our team that needs to be improved. That's what the 2010 season is about, our team growing together and improving over the course of a season.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Tobalaz

Dear god....
Everything is a qb thread.
All I was saying is KC went out and got a good oc and a good dc, both who had recently failed as head coaches but both knew their jobs well.
Why can't we do that?

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