Shaun Rogers for picks for Vincent Jackson

[Greythan]

I love the idea of taking advantage of the market with guys like Rogers.

So, if the Jets situation tipped the supply/demand curve for Rogers our way.... we should strongly consider pulling a Pats/Eagles move and cashing in Rogers.

Now, the second question is what to do with the asset (i.e., whatever we'd get from the Jets)? I don't know Jackson enough to have a good opinion, but I am hesitant about making moves for any high end WR. My diva radar is overly sensitive.

Also, on the QB position in next year's draft I would not bet against our selecting a QB with our first pick. Its just too damn important a position. If Holmgrenn (and Co.?) still like McCoy we'd STILL consider drafting an elite QB prospect. If they both pan out, viola, we're in the Charger's phat seat with one elite QB to trade. If one works out, you simply call the other well-spent insurance.

If neither works out, we'll be firing Holmgrenn and Co. and starting over...... again.

[Shep]

Great stuff, Grey. It's been made crystal clear: You can't compete for very long in this league without a high-end quarterback you keep in the fold for a very long time. We don't even disagree on that here.

I'm not sure what McCoy's ceiling is, but I don't think it's as an elite, long-term starter like a Favre, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, or Brady. I think his dream upside is Garcia, but he's more likely the backup for the Jets, the guy from Oregon.

[Greythan]

Yeah, I'm not predicting top 10 QB status for McCoy. I was good with the pick because a) I presume Holmgrenn saw something there and b) it was a round 3 flyer. My instincts tell me that Holmgren is too old and wizened to "fall in love" with a third round prospect. If we're drafting high next year and there's a QB the organization thinks could be elite..... we'll draft him. Write it down.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Danamal

Normally you play out the current season then assess weakness verses need and compare that to whats available then make your decisions based upon that.
Since we are heading into week two of said current season this conversation is slightly premature,is it not?

Of course it is, but we have to hear how we MUST continue drafting the same way as Policy, Davis and Sewage. Fuck building a team let's just keep using our early picks on QB's and WR's. We've already done it with zero success so why not continue?

Originally Posted by Masters

When some place out side of the Cleveland Browns official website (and no Grossi and Mary K don't count) starts talking about Benard as an emerging star, I will start buying it. He has "emerged" as much as Alex Smith has. He's recorded 2 sacks this season against TB & Josh Freeman. Last year he got 2 on Big Ben (the most sacked QB on a team that had OL issues) and 1 sack of whom ever OAK trotted out (yes, OAK).

Eh, we're just rewriting history to justify the QB fetish. Benard isn't impressive and doesn't stand out. None of our linebackers do. Yay, we traded for a bum, signed a 35 year old Fujita and have Benard and Roth making a couple plays against shit offenses. Yay. *Yawn*

Oh, as for this rewritten history that "you don't take 3-4 linemen in round one(no no, you take WR's and QB's exclusively)"........

2009(In overalls):
KC(4th ov): DE- Tyson Jackson
GB(8th): NT- B.J. Raji
Pit(32nd): DE- Ziggy Hood

2008:
49ers(29th): DE- Kentwan Balmer

2006:
Balt(12th): NT- Haloti Ngata

2005:
DAL(22nd): DE- Marcus Spears
SD(28th): DE- Luis Castillo


But hey, who cares if Clayborn or Cameron could help our D.L. or if Hightower, Galippo, Quinn, Crawford or someone else could solidify the LB's for us? We already have a bunch of guys on the wrong side of 30 alongside a bunch of UDFA's. That'll be fine. It's not like you need a defense to win games.

Originally Posted by Masters

Mark it down now that I said this. CLE will not be drafting a QB in the first round next season.

Why not? We'll magically start winning and be a S.B. contender. It's the only position that matters. I'm sure he'll be able to overcome a mediocre run game, shit right side of the O.L. and a poor defense. I mean Manning and Warner did it, why can't someone else just because nobody but those two have ever done shit with only a passing game doesn't mean others can't.

Anyways I hope you're right. I really really do. This team has a shitload of holes and they won't suddenly just go away because some wide eyed kid from California is making 50 million dollars to throw a ball.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Shep

Great stuff, Grey. It's been made crystal clear: You can't compete for very long in this league without a high-end quarterback you keep in the fold for a very long time.

Yet it's been made even more clear defense and a strong run game wins championships. But I forgot, you disappear whenever those facts are put out there.

[Shep]

I think everything matters on a team, K. Quarterback and the passing game has just mattered way more, especially in the recent past.

Did you see the 3-4 DL you noted? Not much of a case and I suspect that's why you won't see it increasing any time soon. Later in the round, sure. But Tyson Jackson isn't going to bump their value much.

The Browns defense played pretty damn well last Sunday. We lost a game 17-14... and you think our offense is set and our defense needs work?

Uhm... okay.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Greythan

If they both pan out, viola, we're in the Charger's phat seat with one elite QB to trade.

I don't think anyone ever wants to be the Chargers since they
a) Gave up on a franchise QB and drafted one.
b) Let the franchise QB they had walk as a FA for zero in return.
c) Chose the wrong guy (guy they let walk has a nice pretty ring now).

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Greythan

My instincts tell me that Holmgren is too old and wizened to "fall in love" with a third round prospect.

I don't buy that he's changed from the man he's always been (Brunnel, Hasselbeck, Wallace, Frye - he traded for him, Ty Detmer, etc.).

[Shep]

But Holmgren never started Brunell, Wallace, Frye, Detmer, etc.

He only started Favre, acquired with a first round pick, and Hasselbeck, who'd already shown off as Mister August. That's really his body of work as far as choosing starters from a position of power.

Neither really aligns with picking a guy in round three to be the long-term starter.

Guess you could make a case that Wallace fits the mold better than anyone else on the roster.

[Masters]

I'd like a team that can actually compete with the rest of the NFL in any phase of the game, outside of ST, before I start worrying about this team competing for very long. As KoK said, when one half of your OL is an issue (or at least your RT), a mediocre to poor D, a mediocre rush attack, and average adding some rookie potential top flight QB is not going to make up for those issues, and you aren't going to be competing still, let alone "for long".

[Shep]

I think our defense played really well and we're close to having a very good offensive line. I think our backs and TEs look really promising.

We could use some youth on the DL... but we're even more obviously deficient at QB and WR. How long can you keep saying we'll get a good, long-term quarterback and a 21st century passing game when everything else is perfect before you realize you're architecting a perpetually shitty-to-mediocre team?

But we're talking about Holmgren here. He said you can't win in this league without passing really well. He'll take care of it.

[Masters]

The D played.....Tampa Bay. They rolled over against the run from the 6 minute to 2 minute mark in the 4th QTR (as usual not getting a key stop), they easily could have been burned twice in man coverage on blitzes if Josh Freeman was 70% of the other starting QBs in the league, they allowed TB to convert numberous 3rdn and 6+ yards, and the biggest receiving threat was Winslow and a rookie.

Color me unimpressed that the D held TBs offense, lead by a man with a broken thumb on his off hand, in week one mind you where every NFL offense isn't fully in sync, to their averages from last season (pts, rush yards per game, and pass yards per game).