A Challenge For The Negative Nancy's...

[nickers]

Originally Posted by Crow

If you need emotional relief and want to bitch, well then, you're a cynical disillusioned Browns fan who needs to emote in a plea for help.

If you want to have fun with the team and not be realistic and try to get excited and rally around the team in spite of circumstances with sheer hope...well, you're just a Browns fan too. There's no difference in "fandom" (seriously if you post here, you're diehard_

No "fan" is better than any fan. Fans are relativists, you see. They just take things differently.

Besides it's not like I voted Mangini in as coach...

Crow I totally agree...Im pretty much in MZ's camp and Im tired of the bullshit this team has and gets...I want a coach who is innovative...not some retread like EM...I want a coach who has the balls to think outside the box and instill a ..WE WILL IN THE GODDAMN GAME Mentallity on our football team not..."uhh were gonna TRY to win" attitude...EM and his stupid scowl on the sidelines is not gonna bring us victories...EM is probably a better position coach than a HC. Thats just the way I see him. I would rather have Sam Wyche...atleast Wyche thought outside the box despite his short commings. I mean its 10 yeas later and our best players is our Kicker,return Man and left tackle. Thats pretty sad when you think about it. Then Sez tells Me Im not a Browns fan just because I say what HE does not want to hear...Well sorry Im not gonna bow down to some of you folks' opinion of what you think...Right or Wrong Im entitled to an opinion just as the rest of the posters here. Too many of you get your panties in a bunch if someone says anything that goes again your idea or what YOU think is right...Sorry it dont work that way...You folks seem to forget that you can disagree without being petty...Then when I posted "Im Predicting a Blowout" some of you bought the farm and tried to make me out like I was a lunatic...SHAME ON YOU!...Then I was accused of knocking the coach and the team but its ok if you folks knock other posters or a PLAYER YOU DONT LIKE!...Some of you need to grow up...your all not bad people...stop the whinning already!

[hiwaygal]

Originally Posted by nickers

I want a coach who is innovative...not some retread like EM...

Name one who ISN'T a re-tread...

Not really picking on you for your opinion, but...in reality aren't they ALL re-treads of some form or another?

Or do you really want someone who has never coached before?

Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the whole "re-tread" thing...can you explain?

[Danamal]

Originally Posted by hiwaygal

Name one who ISN'T a re-tread...

Not really picking on you for your opinion, but...in reality aren't they ALL re-treads of some form or another?

Or do you really want someone who has never coached before?

Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the whole "re-tread" thing...can you explain?

What we need it seems is a better turd polisher?....

[hiwaygal]

Originally Posted by Danamal

What we need it seems is a better turd polisher?....

YouTube - Mythbusters Polishing a Turd

[Enigmatic Evil]

Originally Posted by nickers

Crow I totally agree...Im pretty much in MZ's camp and Im tired of the bullshit this team has and gets...I want a coach who is innovative...not some retread like EM...I want a coach who has the balls to think outside the box and instill a ..WE WILL IN THE GODDAMN GAME Mentallity on our football team not..."uhh were gonna TRY to win" attitude...EM and his stupid scowl on the sidelines is not gonna bring us victories...EM is probably a better position coach than a HC. Thats just the way I see him. I would rather have Sam Wyche...atleast Wyche thought outside the box despite his short commings. I mean its 10 yeas later and our best players is our Kicker,return Man and left tackle. Thats pretty sad when you think about it. Then Sez tells Me Im not a Browns fan just because I say what HE does not want to hear...Well sorry Im not gonna bow down to some of you folks' opinion of what you think...Right or Wrong Im entitled to an opinion just as the rest of the posters here. Too many of you get your panties in a bunch if someone says anything that goes again your idea or what YOU think is right...Sorry it dont work that way...You folks seem to forget that you can disagree without being petty...Then when I posted "Im Predicting a Blowout" some of you bought the farm and tried to make me out like I was a lunatic...SHAME ON YOU!...Then I was accused of knocking the coach and the team but its ok if you folks knock other posters or a PLAYER YOU DONT LIKE!...Some of you need to grow up...your all not bad people...stop the whinning already!

I agree and disagree with some sentiment here.

We're all Browns fans, we're here talking about this team and nobody should be questioning the pedigree of one's fan strength. I think that EVERY coach is a re-tread of other coaches in a sense. Coaches earn their bumps in this league just like everyone else, they learn from their mentors and eventually grow into their own jobs and begin to craft their own legacies with their own pupils, it's like the "circle of life" for coaches.

We got a defensive minded head coach (the last couple HC's now) because our defense has sucked, the only problem is this hasn't really done anything to change matters. If Mangini doesn't pan out, we will bring in a new coach. Somebody who appeals to what Holmgren wants running this team on the field as I cannot see Holmgren taking the team under his own wing and coaching it, but you never know.

Nickers, stick to your guns. I can't speak for everyone but I respect everyone's opinion no matter how often they re-iterate it in numerous threads or miss the point someone else is making to establish the point they want to make.

When we are friends of such a tumultuous team everyone is bound to have gripes. The TEAM is what brings us all together and we sometimes forget that. We are ALL fans and I don't think any one of us have the pull to question another's pride in the team or faith in the team.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by mz.

He's "good cop" to my "bad cop." That's the game we're playing here. Crow/PK/grimm plays the damsel in distress.



No, for the third time (reading comp. again), it isn't "anger" or "bitterness." It's that I want something better while you don't. You're fine with the shit we watched Sunday. I'm not. There's the difference.

A pretty simple statement, I think. Yet I'm anticipating you somehow misreading it.

First of all, this isn't just aimed at you Mz. And YES I really do understand people's frustrations. BUT, I've seen the SAME problem solves year after year after year after year since Marty Schottenheimer left town. Do we keep hiring NEW GMs, new Head Coaches and new Offensive Coordinators because we're just so spoiled with all this alleged talent nobody has known how to use?

OR, is it possible we keep getting impatient with roster turnover going on like 8 new starters on offense in 2009 to say we needed to clean house with OC and Head Coach again? Is the fix THAT simple? We couldn't get to Jeff Davidson fast enough the year Mo Carthon got chased out of town. We handed off for 1 week and the temporary results earned Davidson parades all around the fanbase. 3 weeks laters he was perceived as shoegum and people wanted him gone too. SAME guy went 12-4 with Jake Delhomme battling through the elbow injuryi Carolina. They had 2 first round RBs and 2 first round OTs and a first or 2nd round Center plus Steve Smith on the perimeter. Did he just wake up smart enough to call plays because he was breathign Carolina air?

I mean can we count HOW MANY draft picks Savage left us scheduled for in 2009? Can we count how many KEEPERS he left us from the 2008 draft? And didn't some people promise Martin Rucker was gonna be a great player eslewhere? Can I just ask where elsewhere is today?

I think we needed to see a turnign point in 2009. Did we or didn't we? I think Holmgren KNOWS that not having the RIGHT QB may not be an accurate reflection of a coach's ability. For instance, what did the GREAT Bill Belichick accomplish when he left us watching the Todd Philcox football follies on Sundays? And does anyone realize NE started off either 0-3 or -0-4 the year Bledsoe lacerated hius kindey and Tom Brady led that same team to SB Sunday?

If you want to be popular all you gotta do is type "Daboll sucks" and the NY Jets look so much better today than when Eric Mangini had them 10-6 with Chad Pennington. I mean a passing game that can't get 50 yards with a first round QB is much greener grass right? And look how much Braylon did with the RIGHT Head Coach and OC.

Let me ask this question: did Lindy Infante become stupid the day he took over the Packers as a Head Coach? Isn't it funny how Sterling Sharpe used to call out his PLAYCALLING at every opportunity? Would the Cleveland fanbase agree that he didn't have the first clue about how to call plays OR did he lack alot of the key ingredients to success that he had in Cleveland? BEFORE we could translate Mack and Byner's collect success at going over 2000 yards rushing in 1 season to more complexities at the passing game - didn't Bernie Kosar have to be READY first? That being the case, we had to go 8-8 before we could take a giant step to 12-4 with the next year. You don't just go from bad team to 12-4 without logical stepping stones. I'm frustrated too but some people were chanting "fire the Head Coach" and "fire the OC" as early as week one last year. And the SOLE reason RAC got chased out of town was his preference in QBs. I'm gonna include myself in this lesson - how much better did our passing game get with Quinn? And how many of us thought that was the BIGGEST change needed besides getting the 1st coach WILLING to make that change?
- Tom F.

[mz.]

I apologize and never meant to question anyone's fandom (Vegas et al.) because, except for Lumbergh, we all want what's best for this team or we wouldn't be here arguing about it all the time.

I just, for the life of me, cannot understand why some people accept what we're given, and go out of our way to support, something we know to be inferior just because it wears our colors. That's all.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Originally Posted by mz.

I apologize and never meant to question anyone's fandom (Vegas et al.) because, except for Lumbergh, we all want what's best for this team or we wouldn't be here arguing about it all the time.

I just, for the life of me, cannot understand why some people accept what we're given, and go out of our way to support, something we know to be inferior just because it wears our colors. That's all.

I get this, and (since I started the thread this may seem a bit contradictory to what I've established) I don't think any fans should settle for less. It's not the mark of any fan to be complacent with what is established.

To relate it to Hockey, I think of Toronto Maple Leaf's fans, now I hate the Maple Leafs but since the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup last year, the Maple Leafs are now the team that's gone the longest since winning the Stanley Cup last, it's been over 40 years and their fans are bitter.

They have had some serious up's, and serious downs and they aren't always happy with their team but their fans are DIE HARD. Nobody questions the Leaf's fans and even if the shit stinks they're still bleeding Blue and White.

As a Browns fan, I want more for the team and I want more from the team. When somebody around here disagrees with me with how they feel about the team, that's fine. I think we do manage to get out of hand defending our opinions and we do get out of hand when it comes to finding justification from others opinions as well.

For me, it's not about "accepting" what we're given so much as it's supporting what we have. I don't have any power over who is on the team or who coaches or runs the team. I can only support the team, and question the team when something off happens.

I think I lost my point somewhere in there but I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning the team, or wanting more from the team. I think some people stick by their guns a little TOO aggressively and doubly so, I think some people are very quick to chastize the opinions of others.

It's not a kumbayah and it's not an ultimatum, just more calling it as I see it. I think this place should be more about sharing what brings us together, and that's a love for a Football team for Ohio, rather than arguing about what we may disagree with. That's what debates are all about, people disagree ,when two mature people with differing opinions are having an engaging discussion regarding that differing opinion rather than just attacking, that's what makes a good conversation and that's what keeps people coming back.

I definitely spiraled that but whatever. I think I made my point.

[hiwaygal]

Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil

For me, it's not about "accepting" what we're given so much as it's supporting what we have. I don't have any power over who is on the team or who coaches or runs the team. I can only support the team, and question the team when something off happens.

This!

The fact is, many of us don't really "support" the team (in a financial sense). We're not all going to the games every week or buying all kinds of team jerseys or whatever. And even if we were, I'm sure it's a very small percentage of the amount of money the team brings in as profit to the owners.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Flugel

First of all, this isn't just aimed at you Mz. And YES I really do understand people's frustrations. BUT, I've seen the SAME problem solves year after year after year after year since Marty Schottenheimer left town. Do we keep hiring NEW GMs, new Head Coaches and new Offensive Coordinators because we're just so spoiled with all this alleged talent nobody has known how to use?

OR, is it possible we keep getting impatient with roster turnover going on like 8 new starters on offense in 2009 to say we needed to clean house with OC and Head Coach again? Is the fix THAT simple? We couldn't get to Jeff Davidson fast enough the year Mo Carthon got chased out of town. We handed off for 1 week and the temporary results earned Davidson parades all around the fanbase. 3 weeks laters he was perceived as shoegum and people wanted him gone too. SAME guy went 12-4 with Jake Delhomme battling through the elbow injuryi Carolina. They had 2 first round RBs and 2 first round OTs and a first or 2nd round Center plus Steve Smith on the perimeter. Did he just wake up smart enough to call plays because he was breathign Carolina air?

I mean can we count HOW MANY draft picks Savage left us scheduled for in 2009? Can we count how many KEEPERS he left us from the 2008 draft? And didn't some people promise Martin Rucker was gonna be a great player eslewhere? Can I just ask where elsewhere is today?

I think we needed to see a turnign point in 2009. Did we or didn't we? I think Holmgren KNOWS that not having the RIGHT QB may not be an accurate reflection of a coach's ability. For instance, what did the GREAT Bill Belichick accomplish when he left us watching the Todd Philcox football follies on Sundays? And does anyone realize NE started off either 0-3 or -0-4 the year Bledsoe lacerated hius kindey and Tom Brady led that same team to SB Sunday?

If you want to be popular all you gotta do is type "Daboll sucks" and the NY Jets look so much better today than when Eric Mangini had them 10-6 with Chad Pennington. I mean a passing game that can't get 50 yards with a first round QB is much greener grass right? And look how much Braylon did with the RIGHT Head Coach and OC.

Let me ask this question: did Lindy Infante become stupid the day he took over the Packers as a Head Coach? Isn't it funny how Sterling Sharpe used to call out his PLAYCALLING at every opportunity? Would the Cleveland fanbase agree that he didn't have the first clue about how to call plays OR did he lack alot of the key ingredients to success that he had in Cleveland? BEFORE we could translate Mack and Byner's collect success at going over 2000 yards rushing in 1 season to more complexities at the passing game - didn't Bernie Kosar have to be READY first? That being the case, we had to go 8-8 before we could take a giant step to 12-4 with the next year. You don't just go from bad team to 12-4 without logical stepping stones. I'm frustrated too but some people were chanting "fire the Head Coach" and "fire the OC" as early as week one last year. And the SOLE reason RAC got chased out of town was his preference in QBs. I'm gonna include myself in this lesson - how much better did our passing game get with Quinn? And how many of us thought that was the BIGGEST change needed besides getting the 1st coach WILLING to make that change?
- Tom F.

And just out of curiosity, where are all these greener grass coaches hiding? Last I knew, Marty Schottenheimer and Bill Cowher wanted nothing to do with this Head Coaching gig.

A great candidate (Kirk Ferentz) that wins in the corn fields of Iowa got mocked out when I saw him mentioned in recent past. He was the oline coach HERE when we ran through, over and around Philly's respectable defense the year we had Vinny T QBing us to 11-5. Leroy's Hoards emerged as the surprising hero when BB's Tommy vardell's football career flat lined.

Truth be told, we chase 1 more Head Coach outta here prematurely or we decide to boycoitt games on Sundays - there's other markets especially out in the LA area that the NFL wants to take advantage of. Even though LA never seems to work, we keep hearign about it don't we?

I don't know HOW to tell people how to root for their teams but I DO know I've worked in positions that required patience and learning curves depending upon the challenge presented. I'd say not having a REAL QB here presents a challenge as well as some skimpy recent drafts inherited. As of 2009, we have added some talented YOUNG prospects in a variety ways which includes the names: Hillis, Moore, Benard, Mack, Trusnik, Haden, Ward, Lauvao, etc... AND some young players are indeed getting coached up right like Rubin and Benard and Mack.

Let's hope we improve because I'm not as excited to go back to the re-hiring process that hasn't seemed to benefit us yet in spite of all the reassurances it was the simplest fix. If that was the case, our dream candidates wouldn't be saying "thanks but no thanks" all the freakin time.
- Tom F.