Blowing sunshine about the Browns

[Shep]

Originally Posted by Alo

Notable 2011 free agent WRs:

- Randy Moss (not coming here)
- Vincent Jackson
- Santonio Holmes
- Steve Smith (NYG)
- Legedu Naanee
- Terrell Owens
- Jacoby Jones

Drafting a WR may not be an absolute necessity.

I'd say Jackson is a true #1... but that's it.

I would also say not drafting a WR very high is at LEAST counterintuitive. But the Browns have shown a penchant for that.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Gotta agree with Sez here. In order to stick up for the defense - I also gotta bring up who made their challenge alot tougher.

The score was 7-6 at half, which is pretty good defense right? And to be honest, the D gave our offense the football inside the 10 yard line. What defender should I blame for Jake throwing what was supposed to be handoff into Hillis' chest on 3rd and 1 yard away from the goal line? THAT, my friends, was absolutley brutal. Sorry! I ain't gonna do the nice-nice tap dance here. This team won't win with that and it's just too Philcox-level repetitive from a lack of poise preventing the ability to be prcise. The injury prevents the mechanics from allowing him to be precise and even decisive. You're only gonna set up bigtime disappointment thinking this injured retire should be leading this offense to places he is no longer capable of.

I think if you look at the point volume surrendered by our defense this year - the defense has kept us in alot of ball games (EXCEPT Baltimore). At 1 time Matt Ryan, was 1of 7 passing. I'm not gonna blame a defense that was on the field all day; because the offense couldn't get first downs when Jake wasn't just giving Atlanta the football OR the gift wrapped TD. We've have a pic 6 in 2 of those games and Ronde Barber was tackled at the 3 yard line so that's pretty freakin close to a 3rd one in close ball games. When KC couldn't put together 1 offensive TD scoring drive - that pic 6was the difference between winning and losing. Hard to pin that on the defense as well. If you're expecting the Pittsburgh Steelers Defense this early in the new regime - then you should be disappointed. That said, these guys are playing hard and they wear down when their efforts get supported by turnovers, pic 6s or 3 and outs.

And what's with NOT being able to hold Jake Delhomme responsible when his body language told us the entire time he didn't want to be out there. He was frantic pre-snap so expecting poise post snap was a little unrealistic. His mechanics were terrible. There's nothign heroic about playing so injured that your petrified to take the snap. Rewatch that game if you have the stomach and tell me he should have remained in the game.

We've talked about this folks - if he's not healthy he either needs to be HONEST about it or have us witnessing the return of Todd Philcox of Ken Dorsey (take your pick) while the opponents get their picks. He gave the home fans nothing football follies and reminders that they have the right to boo the entertainment value provided.

If you watch that game with honesty, you just saw the wind going out of the collective sails when Jake was just awful. And I liked the idea of Jake coming here. Unfortunately that comes from a homer mentality that wants every offseason decision to be right. I was thinking experience, new setting and rejuvenated health would work. He's not healthy and his confidence is shotso. High ankle sprains don't gel well with convenience. Wallace had us in the lead while Jake Delhomme was ready to play Santa Claus. Our options are prayers, rookie QB or football follies.
- Tom F. (The QB-induced Bi-polar Basterd!)

You and I both know the score doesn't always tell the true story. By half time ATL had close to 90 yards on the ground on something like 12 carries. If not for bad play calling early on from their OC (he must have channeled his inner Daboll) it could have been worse early on. I mean who goes to 2 straight passes after running it down a teams throat for 6 yards. And who goes to 3 straight passes after running over a team for 4 straight carries and 2 first downs. But I digress by going on a tangent regarding ATL play calling. But I won't assume it would have, just that it could have.

All that has nothing to do with the part where the D gave the O the ball inside ATL 10. That happened at the start of the second half with CLE trailing by 6. The fumble occurred on 3rd down with 2 to go. You are leaping to the assumption that if that hand off isn't fumbled CLE gets a TD. I am not going to leap to that being 6. From the stack up at the line that play looked like it was going to be stuffed at the line or behind it. Even if Hillis wasn't gimpy, which is he was, I don't think he plows through. It all has little to do with how the D simply got manhandled in the trenches.

I'd sooner argue other teams offensive ineptitude and being teams marginally better than CLE has kept CLE in the ball games, than CLE's D has. TB and KC are one dimensional teams (TB can't run and KC can't pass). I feel like I am reliving RAC's first few years, and reading things I might have once wrote myself to defend the D hanging in there and keeping the score close. This D is bad as a collective unit. There are personal upgrades, sure, but as a whole, they are terrible and it starts at the DC. As I worried this team can't generate a pass rush without a serious blitz (the sacks yesterday were coverage sacks) and they cannot stop the run when facing a team that actually commits to the run (KC ran over this team to the tune of 140 yards and 4ypc).

Jake body language showed he was hurt and that the shot he got before kick off had worn off. But this again has nothing to do with the D. You could see the collective wind come out of the sail right about when Turner ripped off that big run, and when the D started getting repeated stupid penalties for unnecessary roughness.

That homer mentality you mention in the end of your post is applying to the view of this teams D. I know all of us want something to point to and say "we are at least good at X", but its not D. They are still at the bottom of the league in rushing and creating turnovers. The passing numbers will probably drop as they play better passing teams.

[Shep]

Browns are 13th in scoring defense... which is kind of the bottom line. I may be mistaken, but I don't think they account for our offense's turnovers and we've had a lot at all the wrong times. We're right in the middle of the league with 10 sacks.

Our defense has kept us in every game.

[Masters]

The Browns are 13th in scoring (the total of 10 sacks in 5 games isn't that good and really puts them muddled in the middle to bottom with a lot of teams). The O has on occasion put the D in bad spots, but that's true of every team.

Let's put this in a little perspective, CLE is giving up 19 points a game. That's the average points per game the O's they have faced are putting up. So basically teams are hitting their average against this D. Sure it could be worse, but letting teams hit their average, or actually do better than their average is hardly something to prop up. Especially when that average being allowed isn't just the points per game, but across all the offensive stats.

The only truly two dimensional offense they have faced is BALT, and we saw what happened in that game. RAC D's kept the Browns in games. That's hardly improvement as a unit. Especially when this CLE team is not getting destroyed in the TOP, but rather running even in it.

[Shep]

I don't think we're that far apart, M. I'm not saying the Browns defense is awesome... I'm saying it's average. We have more sacks than 15 teams and give up fewer points than 17.

19 teams give up more yards per carry.

None of that was true last year, at least until the last four games. It seems like Rubin, Roth, Benard, and now Ward, Brown, and Haden have helped the defense become at least "solid" the last 9 regular season games.

Doesn't Benard have like 7 sacks in the last 7 games he was active?

[Shep]

In his last 8 games (4 at the end of last year, 4 so far this year), Benard has 7 sacks.

That's on a pace for 14 in a season.

[Masters]

We aren't too far apart. But imo this D is below average and it's being masked by the O's they have played so far. Yes, CLE has more sacks than 15 teams, but half of those teams are 1~2 behind CLE and several are teams who have faced better offenses so far than CLE.

The yard per game total, as I noted earlier, is because CLE has only faced one O that has both a rushing game and passing game. CLE has been run over by the two teams that are run oriented (KC and ATL). Cincy and BALT passed all over this team, and TB is still a team finding it's way on O, and was faced week one, where even you have said O's are clicking yet week one.

Ward and Haden have helped and been solid, as have the other guys you mentioned. But I won't go to the point of solid as a unit. Some guys playing well doesn't equal a D playing well.

Bernard has 4 sacks this season, with at least 2 being coverage sacks. Sure we can go back to the PIT game last year, but sacking the most sacked QB in the league last year isn't a feather I'd put in my cap.

I hope I am worrying to much, but we'll find out a lot more about this D in next 3 games. Unfortunatly I think week 7 CLE is going to be just what NO needs to wake up that sleeping O.

[Sez.EJ]

The D is better than last year.. We are looking for progress here right? I mean; we all knew we could not fix it all in an offseason.. I think we all recognize there are still significant holes.. Also..we see some young players beginnning to blossom too.. So we are going the right way. Our D is not great..but we are coming along nicely. Without some more talent..there is a limit this season.. But again...going the right direction.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Masters

But imo this D is below average and it's being masked by the O's they have played so far.

I think just the opposite - our D is better than below avg but that is masked by the offense WE have. Those teams we've played so far? Name me one that has struggled this season on O.

[damajuki]

I don't understand Masters' point here at all. Our D is average and that's with a decidedly BELOW average O not helping it at all.

The O's we've faced have put up WAY more points on other teams this year than they did on us. This weekend, TB just won a shootout with Cincy and Baltimore put up 30+ running all over Denver.

KC won a big game last week (I think). Atlanta is a legit offense with stars everywhere -- and we held them in check and didn't lose until the once-in-a-lifetime pick.

So Masters: what else do you want this D to do? Facing some good-to-elite offensive talent with a rag-tag collection of mostly never-beens and some has-beens and some REALLY young guys, they've kept us in games consistently.

I don't see anything negative in their play given their circumstances.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by ramrod

Damn, I knew when I seen a positive thread you would be in here saying something negative. More importantly I knew it was going to be about the defense. God damn, I'm good.

Now, dont you always say (when it works for your conversation) a true defense is measured on how many points they give up? Isnt that the "same school of thought" that you just shared with someone the other day in a different thread? Our D has not giving up more than 20 pints and has kept us into every game. We've had a chance to win every single game that we've played, not because of our offense. Matt Ryan looked confused and if it wasnt for that long touchdown pass to Roddy White, it would have been a terrible game for him and with that big play it was well below average.

Anyhow, the one big run was at the end of the first half. It was for 55 yards. When Rogers got completey schooled and ran it up the middle. Take that play out and Turner only runs for 85 yards. But you cant, so it is what it is. I know you ALWAYS use (again, when it works for you) "well, if a big play wasnt there then" or the "he played terrible defenses" or whatever you want to make up at that time to justify why the person or QB or whatever is not as good as they are. Its convience for you and it doesnt work both ways Mr. Negative.

Good day.

BINGO! Score was 7-6 at halftime. Aside from that our defense gave our offense the football inside the 10 yard line before Jake threw a handoff at Peyton Hillis on 3rd and goal from the 1 yard line.

Even worse? This was the 3rd game our offense gave up a TD (I actually count Ronde Barber's INT return to the 3 yard line a pic 6).

When Baltimore had Kyle Boller starting at QB for them - they counldn't win 8 games. Go look if you think I'm getting Stephen King-level crerative about that. Interestingly enough, they had a diminsished skills Air McNair leading them to 13-3 the year before that and a rookie Gamae Manager leading them to AFC Championship a season after Kyle Boller. What's interesting about this is they still had Ed Reed, Ray Lewis and T-Suggs playign good football. What's even more interesting is that they were all human enough to get tired when the Boller-led offense kept putting them back on the field.

Relating that synopsis to us? Our defense KEPT us in the game that Jake Delhomme personally handed to Atlanta BETTER than he haded the ball to Peyton Hillis on 3rd and 1. Deal with that any way you need to folks because Jake needs to retire. Deep 6 the need to be rright and open our eyes. Everybody is polarizing because God forbid Shep was right that Jake Delhomme isn't capable of HELPING our team win.

And for the record, Joe Thomas does NOT suck. He had a challenging matchup that he didn't have his A game for. EVERYONE on this planet can have a bad day. If he has a cluster-bunch of them in succession then you can hold up your bring back Kevin Shaffer signs. His promotion to startsies in Chicago ended with a Jay Cutler concussion so he'll be available real soon for all our dreamers out there. Joe has 3 Pro Bowls in 3 years punctuating consistency; so don't lose your minds because you're frustrated. Do you REALLY miss Kevin Shaffer and Joe Andruzzi on the left side?

We're a QB away from moving chains and winning games. Wallace wasn't bad IMO; but he's got a bad ankle. Jake is a train wreck where I think there's more than health issues going bad. His pre-snap body language is a frantic "Holy shit I should have retired! What was I thinking? I can't move and here they come again. I'm closing my eyes now!" I'll blame our offensive staff and head Coach sooooo much more for leaving him in than play calling; when 3rd and 2 turns into 3rd and 7 when a PRO can't remember the snap count. Sorry!
- Tom F. (Poor Colt McCoy is gonna feel like a Saddam Hussein Security Guard on the day of capture when he sees Pittsburgh's D wanting revenge.)

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

I think just the opposite - our D is better than below avg but that is masked by the offense WE have. Those teams we've played so far? Name me one that has struggled this season on O.

CLE O hasn't been struggling like years past. The TOP being almost dead even each game shows that. The O isn't filled with 3 an outs. The O isn't great by any means, but it's hardly something that can be used as an excuse for the D.

As to the O's CLE has played so far, they have all had their struggles.

BALT is putting up only 30 more yards per game than CLE, only 20 more passing yards per game than CLE, and 10 more rushing yards per game than CLE. BALT is just starting to round out on their O. Them and ATL are the only two dimensional teams CLE has faced, with ATL at the time having the better rushing game (and we see how that just worked out).

TB is putting up 10 more yards per game than CLE. With that 10 more coming in passing.

KC is putting up 5 more yards per game than CLE. They are passing for 40 less yards a game than CLE, but rushing for 45 more per game than CLE.

Cincy can't find an identity on O, is turning it over, and convert 3rd downs at significantly lower rate than CLE does.

I hope I am wrong, but I think the next 3 games are going to seriously expose this D unit/scheme.