Eric Mangini Press Conference

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Our offense is the most talent deficient offense in the NFL ...period.

We'll continue to cycle through coach after aoch after coach until we give someone the opportunity to build a team. Mangini is doing that, but he's certainly not going to take us from where we were, to the playoffs in two years with the talent deficiency that we have. We can afford to be patient for a Superbowl ...it's been what, since '64? I think we can wait for 2-3 more years to see Manginis plan come to fruition. You may very well be right about Daboll ...but it's a judgment lacking any substance when our coaches are handcuffed by the lack of talent on the field.

[hiwaygal]

I will admit I am concerned about the number of penalties.

I need to do some research to see how we ranked last year in penalties and how we are doing this year. It does seem like there are more.

Some of that (especially in the last game) was maybe the refs watching more closely because of the hit Ward had a couple weeks ago.

But, there could be a lot of factors with that too...maybe the team is being told to play harder and that's why there are more penalties. I don't know.

I think we are too quick to run people out of town based only on what we see on tv or read online. There are many factors playing into everything and I'm guessing we don't see 99% of them.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Our offense is the most talent deficient offense in the NFL ...period.

We'll continue to cycle through coach after aoch after coach until we give someone the opportunity to build a team. Mangini is doing that, but he's certainly not going to take us from where we were, to the playoffs in two years with the talent deficiency that we have. We can afford to be patient for a Superbowl ...it's been what, since '64? I think we can wait for 2-3 more years to see Manginis plan come to fruition. You may very well be right about Daboll ...but it's a judgment lacking any substance when our coaches are handcuffed by the lack of talent on the field.

CLE has enough talent on O to not be telegraphing plays. They have other pieces to actually run the wild cat with Cribbs, which had success last year, yet they rarely run it this year. The WR's are good enough to be runing 5~7 yard quick slants, but we never see them. Blaming the talent for a Techmo Bowl style playbook is a cop out imo.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by hiwaygal

I will admit I am concerned about the number of penalties.

I need to do some research to see how we ranked last year in penalties and how we are doing this year. It does seem like there are more.

Some of that (especially in the last game) was maybe the refs watching more closely because of the hit Ward had a couple weeks ago.

From a league stand point, the only penalty number that is up this year is the number of holds being called, due to the umpire moving to being behind the offense instead of in front of it.

CLE stupid penalties, such as late hits, and bad pass interferences are up by my count.

[Sez.EJ]

This team is still talent poor..everyone is looking for instant gratification..it's our 4th or 5th head coach and just about as many GM's in 11 years.. another new system..it's even hard to say it's in it's 2nd year with holmgren just getting here..So you could argue either way its a first or 2nd year regime... It's not going to happen this year.. this team is so much more fun to watch than last year (the worst ever).. We have a come forward this year.. If we have continue to develop the young guys.. and hopefully as the season progresses some will improve (that's the plan right?).. With a great offseason.. this team can be for real next year.. (If all goes right).. definately 2 good offseasons.. the team will roll.. it's young.. just needs a few more playmakers.. Let's hope Holmgren and Co. can make it happen for us.
But show some patience people.. Hey I'm as frustrated as everyone.. But it's not happening overnight. .. Seriously..some want Mangini gone..does that move us forward or backward??? I am not saying he's the greatest.. but Let's see how the season plays out.. There may be an upgrade out there...but at what cost to the growth of the team?

[Masters]

Sez, I am with you on many points you just made. Where I disagree is that it is still the second year. Holmgren may have come it, but he is letting EM and company continue to run the system they put in place last year, from a football stand point, and getting players that fit it. I think the team could be real next year and have the patience for that. What I am not sold on is that EMs system, and especially that of his coordinators will allow for that reality next year or the year(s) after. You cannot win in the NFL with telegraphed offense and a D which can't stop the run, and gets exposed weekly for big plays.

[Sez.EJ]

Masters: think for the most part you and I are on the same page. However, Don't you think our offense (and daboll) are bit handcuffed with our recieving corps?... I am thinking it would look much different with a true #1 reciever who can force double coverage and still make plays (which we did not get in the offseason). Nearly every team has one..We don't. He is making due and still keeping us in every game. I'm not saying I'm crazy about his offense.. but I think he is a bit handicapped and handcuffed to a point. He seems to be making the most of what he has.

I still think Momass and Robo could end up ok.. but it's hurting us this year as to what we can really do on offense.. Where I do agree..

Mangini has not done well with half time adjustments. This is what the Jets fans told me when he came here and they seem to have been right.

Ryan is a bit too cocky for his own good and hanging our db's out to dry with some of his blitzed.. 3 weeks in a row we've been torched for long td's when we've been caught blizting.. He has some fault here too

Overall I think we agree... There really is no right or wrong.. It's what direction does Holmgren want to go next year. Mike essentially has 3 choices:
1. Go with Mangini and current staff.
2. Mangini and Holmgren forces some coaching changes below Mangini.
3. Bringing in a new head coach and a whole new staff..

That's really what Holmgren needs to asses this year. He's no dummy and I'm sure that's where his head is.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Masters: I'm not in agreement on some points, however, Don't you think our offense ( and daboll) are bit handcuffed with our recieving corps...

Yes and no. For the style they want to run, it's not about a vertical threat anyway. They want to play ball control offense, based on short and intermediate routes (sort of WC style, but with the run setting up the pass). The guys they have can do this. We even saw it in preseason. Yet when the real games came up, gone. You don't need true #1 WR to not be vanilla and predictable on offense. Sure CLE doesn't have world beaters, but there are ways to get guys open. EM should know this as he got production out of the WR he had with the Jets, whom were lacking a true #1. There are lots of teams that get away with it. Remember when CLE #1 was Kevin Johnson? Still found ways to get plays in the passing game. When you are going entire games with your WR's not catching a pass, there is more to it than just the guys on the field. On top of that, if the WR are the issue, why in gods green earth was the game plan against ATL to come out throwing for (60% of the first two drives were passes)? In that game they threw it 38 times compared to 20 rushing attempt. I thought the "identity' was a smash mouth rushing team.

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

I am thinking it would look much different with a true #1 and better supporting cast? (which we did not get in the offseason). He is making due without a real recieving corps and still keeping us in every game. I'm not saying I'm crazy about his offense.. but I think he is a bit handicapped and handcuffed to a point. He's working with what he has.

I don't think a true #1 WR would make a lick of difference. It's not about the players right now, it's about the system they are trying to run, and failing to establish an offensive identity. When you have holes in your talent, you find ways to do what you are good at. Right now it continues to be try to force square pegs into round holes. They also could have improved the WR core in the off season. By all reports the front office is supposedly catering to EM's needs. He chose to go into the season with his two hand pick 2nd round draft pick WRs and Cribbs. He obviously thought he could make due with those guys.

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

I still think Momass and Robo could end up ok.. but it's hurting us this year as to what we can really do on offense.. Where I do agree..

Mangini has not done well with half time adjustments. This is what the Jets fans told me when he came here and they seem to have been right.

Here we mostly agree. I think Momass and Robo are capable of being #2 guys and #3 guys in the league. But you can still create match ups to get them the ball without a #1. Neither guy is drawing a double team most of the time.

The half time adjustments are just terrible. A lot of that to me goes back to a poor game plan to start with (i.e. trying to be NE of 200x) when they adjusted to the opponents strength/weakness. Daboll is no Charlie Weiss and they shouldn't be trying to go with that game plan, when he's not. They also don't have Tom Brady. Then after half time they stick with the same game plan, which by this time the opposing team has figured out.

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Ryan is a bit too cocky for his own good and hanging our db's out to dry with some of his blitzed.. 3 weeks in a row we've been torched for long td's when we've been caught blizting.. He has some fault here too

At least on of those long pass TDs fall's on good old Elam. I don't mind Ryan's cocky attitude. But yeah, his scheme has major holes. He could be getting some pressure with out leaving the DBs on an island constantly. The majority of the time it seems his D is based on selling out on the blitz or a run location. Other teams see it and beat it for big gains. It's all pretty much boom or bust. When your O has it's own issues, you can't play that style. You need an O that puts up NE points to get away with that.

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Overall I think we agree... There really is no right or wrong.. It's what direction does Holmgren want to go next year. Mike essentially has 3 choices:
1. Go with Mangini and current staff.
2. Mangini and Holmgren forces some coaching changes below Mangini.
3. Bringing in a new head coach and a whole new staff..

That's really what Holmgren needs to asses this year. He's no dummy and I'm sure that's where his head is.

Of course there is no right or wrong. We are just two guys on a message board with opinions. If we were anything more, we wouldn't be on this message board

Full agreement on the 3 options this season will present MH with. With the way the season is heading so far, 2 and 3 seem to me the likely directions. I don't think EM will go along with option 2.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Masters

By all reports the front office is supposedly catering to EM's needs. He chose to go into the season with his two hand pick 2nd round draft pick WRs and Cribbs. He obviously thought he could make due with those guys.

Comments like this make me think you have an agenda against Mangini, because this statement is far from the truth. Heckert has said he and Mangini agree about the "type" of player they want on the team, and it's his job to go out and find said players. Mangini does not make the call on what players sign with this team, Heckert does. Mangini will have input like any coach, but it's been made clear Heckert is making the final call.

Originally Posted by Masters

es and no. For the style they want to run, it's not about a vertical threat anyway.

Sure it is, our system uses a ton of play-action to set up the deep pass down field. Without that #1, or at least a true burner, you are most definitely handcuffed in what you are going to call. In 2007, when New England finally landed their true burner #1 in Randy Moss, it amounted to record setting offensive production. We need a burner, but again ...everything is not fixed in 2 seasons when you have as many holes as we do.

Originally Posted by Masters

The half time adjustments are just terrible.

Haven't we been winning like every single game at halftime? What adjustments really need to be made when what you are doing is clearly working? It's the other teams that need to make adjustments. We're not so talented we can stop using guy A. and go to guy B. because there is no guy B.

I just read something recently where coaches were talking about this whole notion of "half-time adjustments" saying basically it's a farce. You have your adjustments long before the game begins, these aren't decisions you make on the fly during your 15 minute halftime. If things are going a certain way, you go tot plan b, plan c, plan d ....etc. The notion that Daboll is just too stupid to brainstorm some adjustments during the half is just silly, it doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted by Masters

At least on of those long pass TDs fall's on good old Elam.

Absolutely, he's not very good ...and we have nobody better or he'd be playing.

Originally Posted by Masters

I don't think EM will go along with option 2.

Why is that? Daboll was Manginis 3rd or 4th choice, he's not going to sink or swim with Daboll, but he is going to give him a fair chance and understand what they are working with.


JMHO

[Masters]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Comments like this make me think you have an agenda against Mangini, because this statement is far from the truth. Heckert has said he and Mangini agree about the "type" of player they want on the team, and it's his job to go out and find said players. Mangini does not make the call on what players sign with this team, Heckert does. Mangini will have input like any coach, but it's been made clear Heckert is making the final call.

I have as much agenda against EM as you have for defending him. Every time someone speaks unkindly or believes they are flaws doesn't mean they are out to get him. Let that stuff go. Yes, it has been made clear Heckert has the final call. I originally defended EM being hired. But after countless questionable decision (be it game day, personal, clock management, hand picking of the last GM, and what not) I just don't blindly support him. But by your scenario (which goes against the reports and a lot of what EM has said himself) Heckert wanted to go into the season with this, what you deem sorry group of WRs? Sounds like you have a media agenda against Heckert (that was a joke to point out the sillyness of trying to twist my opinion into some secret agenda to get EM). About this time last year I had people trying to convince me that Momass was a #1 in the making. Now I don't recall if you were one of the people supporting that notion.

Let me also add on that I find it hard to believe sticking with this group of WR was not almost all EM's choice, when two of the WR were EM's picks in last years draft. I certainly won't by that was all Kokinis, when part of his grievance filed against his firing was that he was supposed to have final say on the roster according to his contract, but wasn't given it. Those guys were all EMs picks. You'll notice BALT quickly hired Kokinis back, so I think the story of his issues in CLE office were a whole lot of smoke and mirrors by CLE's PR and the press

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Sure it is, our system uses a ton of play-action to set up the deep pass down field. Without that #1, or at least a true burner, you are most definitely handcuffed in what you are going to call. In 2007, when New England finally landed their true burner #1 in Randy Moss, it amounted to record setting offensive production. We need a burner, but again ...everything is not fixed in 2 seasons when you have as many holes as we do.

This system hardly uses the PA pass to setup deep passes down field. How many attempts have we actually seen down field? They also poorly use the PA pass. They don't run it when they have the D sold out on the run, then they use it when they have shown no commitment to the run (see last week). Then they don't use advantages, such as Wallace's mobility by running PA bootlegs. The whole offensive scheme they try to run is based on the short and intermediate. We've seen it all season, all preseason, and all last year. It's not a vertical game by design. Which is fine, when you actually run slants, ins, and crossing patterns. None of which do we see.

The going to NE scenario I don't even understand. Last I checked they won 3 SBs without that game and zero with it. They also run an entirely different O, which is more based on the pass setting up the run. A better example, which shows what a good OC can do is look at DET a few years ago when Mike Martz was their OC. They had a top flight pass offense that got DAL into trading for over rated Roy Williams, and made a Jon Kitna a 4,000 yard passer. They had next to nothing on that team for talent, and no run game. NO, who obviously has Brees (which makes a huge different) gets by with no true #1, just like NE did during their SB dynasty.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Haven't we been winning like every single game at halftime? What adjustments really need to be made when what you are doing is clearly working? It's the other teams that need to make adjustments. We're not so talented we can stop using guy A. and go to guy B. because there is no guy B.

When they start giving W's out for leading at half time that will mean something. Haven't we also seen the O all but completely shut down after halftime? You can stop telegraphing plays, you can run plays out of different formations. There are always options. You don't go changing your entire identity at half time (or your entire identity like CLE did in the ATL game from the start), but you do have to mix things up when the D catches on to the obvious.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

I just read something recently where coaches were talking about this whole notion of "half-time adjustments" saying basically it's a farce. You have your adjustments long before the game begins, these aren't decisions you make on the fly during your 15 minute halftime. If things are going a certain way, you go tot plan b, plan c, plan d ....etc. The notion that Daboll is just too stupid to brainstorm some adjustments during the half is just silly, it doesn't work that way.

I have also heard coaches say audibles are over rated and a farce as well. They say all kinds of crap which should be taken with a grain of salt. Teams make adjustments constantly through games based on what an O or D is doing. You're not reinventing the game plan, but when a D starts taking away things, you have to find the weakness they just opened up by doing it (example the D starts loading up one side of the line and killing your RT, you start chipping with a TE, or they load up one side of the line for a run, you bust em with a counter to the other side where there will be a hole). If Daboll can't draw up help when T is getting exploited or a team is selling out, yes I think he must be too stupid. What other answer is there really?

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Absolutely, he's not very good ...and we have nobody better or he'd be playing.

We agree partially. Adams could do a better job. They also could have picked up someone else during camp or before the start of the season. Or is it now Heckert insisted on Elam as the FS?

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Why is that? Daboll was Manginis 3rd or 4th choice, he's not going to sink or swim with Daboll, but he is going to give him a fair chance and understand what they are working with.
JMHO

Daboll was terrible last season but he stuck with him this season. So why should I not believe he'll sink or swim with him. As you just said, he was EM's 3rd or 4th choice, yet he stuck with him after all. So why stick with 3rd or 4th best a second time around when there are other fish in the sea? He knew going in he was not his first choice or second choice, so if he was good, don't you think he'd have been the first or second choice.

[Sez.EJ]

Masters: I gotta disagree on the #1 wr...I think having a guy who can command double coverage would make huge difference in what this offense looks like.. But.. we wont find out who's right or wrong this year.. but if a defense must 2 guys to cover our #1 reciever.. it opens up other players.. and if the #1 guy can beat 2.. the offense changes dramatically.. it just opens everything up.. run and pass.. it also keeps 8, and in our case, sometimes 9 out of the box.. so.. I must disagree on that point. You can say our scheme does not play that..but it's not true...when braylon was here at the beginning last year... we were trying to go downfield a lot more. when he left.. a whole lot changed

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Masters: I gotta disagree on the #1 wr...I think having a guy who can command double coverage would make huge difference in what this offense looks like.. But.. we wont find out who's right or wrong this year.. but if a defense must 2 guys to cover our #1 reciever.. it opens up other players.. and if the #1 guy can beat 2.. the offense changes dramatically.. it just opens everything up.. run and pass.. it also keeps 8, and in our case, sometimes 9 out of the box.. so.. I must disagree on that point. You can say our scheme does not play that..but it's not true...when braylon was here last year... we were trying to go downfield a lot more.

I think if there was a true #1 and a completely different offensive philosophy it would make a difference. But not with the current philosophy and O EM/Daboll want to run. I have pointed to NO who has no true #1, NE during their hay day and now again will have no true #1 (bet they don't lose a step), DEN, and many other teams. It's a nice luxury but not a must to get something out of your passing game. There are always other ways to skin the cat (rub routes, slants against man, crossing patterns, etc.). You can create match ups and open open receivers. You can beat 8/9 in the box with quick 3 step drop slants, quick outs, and numerous other ways. When you have 8/9 in the box, that means you have man on the outside and man on your TE. Look at what the Jets would do last year when their O was run, run, run, run, pass. They got success out of PA pass bootlegs when the D was loading the box, by bring the TE across the filed. You could do that all day with Moore

Last year CLE also had DA whose only skill was going down field. That all but stopped when BE was traded away as well (as did the hype after one good game of Momass being a #1 in the making).

My point is you don't need a deep vertical threat to have a successful passing game. A recent example, PHI pre-TO. They had no one at WR yet could move the ball mostly on passing. You have to create when you don't have a guy whose just going to go out and beat double teams.