Cribbs defends Harrison

[Fan Of STEEL]

Try not to talk about real football, these Cleveland folks have been watching their team play touch football for too long. They went to the dark side long ago.

[Fan Of STEEL]

Originally Posted by Legacy Fan

James Roidface Harrison LEAD WITH THE CROWN OF HIS HEAD TO MAKE THE TACKLE. IT HAS NOT, NOR WILL EVER BE THE PROPER WAY TO TACKLE. IT'S NOT SAFE FOR EITHER PARTY, AND IS JUST POOR TECHNIQUE.

That is what the fuss is about. Not trying puss out the game or whatever talentless roidneck's are fearing.

100% wrong. Nobody lead with their head and the videos show exactly that. In fact the hit the NFL fined Harrison for was not to the head but was because of what they are calling a "hard violent hit" . It's not about a hit to the head, it's about the NFL changing the game fudementally to something it was never intended to be.
No offense but football is not safe for either party and never has been. It's a physical game with violence intended. I hope it always stays that way. I have to laugh at you guys always talking about roids as the reason you are losing or the reason people play violently in a violent game.

[jason j]

Originally Posted by Steeler SChuck

Just my objective opinion, and some stains outsiders would agree, but Cribbs is the face of the stains.

There's a lot of back-and-forth on this issue. The flow of the issue is ebbing and we're seeing football purists now challenge the NFL's hasty tactics. It's not just Steeler fans or the Rooneys, it's now the players stepping up and questioning these questionable moves.

Anyone who caught Jason Taylor's segment on ESPN will know what I'm talking about.

Or Steve Young - the poster boy of concussions who suggested that football as we know it is dead and should be referred to as "rugby with helmets".

If you saw that ESPN segment where they showed the Harrison hit, they broke it down to show that massafuckwhatever ducked at the last second which made the hit look worse than it should be.

Taylor stated that the game is played at full speed, decisions are made in a fraction of a second and you can't easily determine intent based on the outcome.

They then went on to show a hit from Ray Lewis on a player that was touted as "here's how you hit a guy" and pointed out that he left his feet and hit a basically undefended WR and should have been flagged/fined based on the NFL's interpretation of the rules.

No, this isn't an issue about Harrison - it's a bigger matter. One that isn't decided in a few days.

I just want to address the difference between Ray Lewis' hit and James Harrison's hit. The fact that Massaquoi ducked is Harrison's problem. This is a bit of a cut and paste from elsewhere but it's the same argument over and over around here these days.

The difference between the two is simply that Harrison has lousy tackling fundamentals. Rather than close the gap on Massaquoi, Harrison stops and sets up for a kill shot. The problem is that in his haste to land his knockout blow, he sets up too far from the receiver. He miscalculated how much time would elapse between the ball arriving and his macho flex move.

If he would've continued toward the receiver, or (God forbid) played the ball instead of the man, he would've arrived sooner. Massaquoi would've still been airborne and had an open target at his midsection. The problem is, he got lazy. He wanted to land the big blow. He gave too much clearance, and by the time he uncoiled, the receiver was halfway into a protective crouch. His hit landed right at chin level with the shoulder pads and helmet.

You get no free passes for making a mistake. He screwed up.

If you screw up and hit somebody's car, you don't get a free pass. The same thing is true in the NFL. Unless you're absolutely sure that you can land your shot legally, you don't do it... or suffer the consequences.

He could've taken another step and a half, been in good tackling position, and taking a short burst at Massaquoi's midsection - easily separating the ball from the receiver and making a monstrous impact... and nobody has to go have the "how many fingers am I holding up" test.

Call it an accident all you want. It doesn't relieve Harrison of the liability. It was still his careless play that caused the injury.

-jj

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by jason j

I just want to address the difference between Ray Lewis' hit and James Harrison's hit. The fact that Massaquoi ducked is Harrison's problem. This is a bit of a cut and paste from elsewhere but it's the same argument over and over around here these days.

The difference between the two is simply that Harrison has lousy tackling fundamentals. Rather than close the gap on Massaquoi, Harrison stops and sets up for a kill shot. The problem is that in his haste to land his knockout blow, he sets up too far from the receiver. He miscalculated how much time would elapse between the ball arriving and his macho flex move.

If he would've continued toward the receiver, or (God forbid) played the ball instead of the man, he would've arrived sooner. Massaquoi would've still been airborne and had an open target at his midsection. The problem is, he got lazy. He wanted to land the big blow. He gave too much clearance, and by the time he uncoiled, the receiver was halfway into a protective crouch. His hit landed right at chin level with the shoulder pads and helmet.

You get no free passes for making a mistake. He screwed up.

If you screw up and hit somebody's car, you don't get a free pass. The same thing is true in the NFL. Unless you're absolutely sure that you can land your shot legally, you don't do it... or suffer the consequences.

He could've taken another step and a half, been in good tackling position, and taking a short burst at Massaquoi's midsection - easily separating the ball from the receiver and making a monstrous impact... and nobody has to go have the "how many fingers am I holding up" test.

Call it an accident all you want. It doesn't relieve Harrison of the liability. It was still his careless play that caused the injury.

-jj

There was a Safety for Oklahoma trying to tackle like James Harrison last night. He actualy got flagged unlike the Steelers ever do. Anyway, because he doesn't have Jame's Harrison's 36 inch neck circumference - he injured his neck and missed part of the game for tackling with his head instead of his shoulders.

JJ, I think you've shared with our board that you coach or did coach at 1 time. When you teach kids to tackle - do you teach them the way James Harrison said he was taught or do your teach them to initiate contact with the SHOULDER?

I know the way it is supposed to be taught. I know a ton of us prolly attended at least 1 football camp in our lives during playing days and added that to more than 1 year of experience playing some sort of organized football. I'm not asking for resumes here as much as I'm askign where in American they teach tackle through the head.

It feels like it was just yesterday that 100% of the Steeler fans were crying about the way Jack Tatum and George Atkinson were tackling their pretty little Lynn Swann. Then they'd be proud Jack Lambert needed to hit a 170 pound Brian Sip 10 yards out of bounds about 5 seconds after the whistle. Should it have ever had to come to Turkey Jones thinking: "if the refs won't handle this - I will?" What comes around - goes around.
- Tom F.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Fan Of STEEL

100% wrong. Nobody lead with their head and the videos .

Maybe you should WATCH the Cribbs hit before you comment on it like we all did. I've seen it about 20 times and the only way I don't see head to head contact is if I close my eyes or I refuse to see it.

You're editing FOS because you can't stand what you're lookign at. Put the crackpipe down and watch the video or simply lose 100% of your credibility - self-indiuced.

You haven't even convinced yourself that wasn't head to head contact. Watch what is specifically nudgingCribbs' head sideways. It's a yellow helmet. It couldn't be any more clear than that.
- Tom F.

[jason j]

Originally Posted by Flugel

There was a Safety for Oklahoma trying to tackle like James Harrison last night. He actualy got flagged unlike the Steelers ever do. Anyway, because he doesn't have Jame's Harrison's 36 inch neck circumference - he injured his neck and missed part of the game for tackling with his head instead of his shoulders.

JJ, I think you've shared with our board that you coach or did coach at 1 time. When you teach kids to tackle - do you teach them the way James Harrison said he was taught or do your teach them to initiate contact with the SHOULDER?

I know the way it is supposed to be taught. I know a ton of us prolly attended at least 1 football camp in our lives during playing days and added that to more than 1 year of experience playing some sort of organized football. I'm not asking for resumes here as much as I'm askign where in American they teach tackle through the head.

It feels like it was just yesterday that 100% of the Steeler fans were crying about the way Jack Tatum and George Atkinson were tackling their pretty little Lynn Swann. Then they'd be proud Jack Lambert needed to hit a 170 pound Brian Sip 10 yards out of bounds about 5 seconds after the whistle. Should it have ever had to come to Turkey Jones thinking: "if the refs won't handle this - I will?" What comes around - goes around.
- Tom F.

We've covered this at some length in another thread. But the short answer is we teach players to see what they hit. Ideally you will make contact with the shoulder first. But, in reality, the facemask may get there first. That said, the brunt of the force should be delivered with the shoulder.

If you have your head up and eyes open, your body's natural electronics will minimize the amount of force you take with your head. It's instinct. The way guys overcome this instinct is to look away or close their eyes. That's where the injuries happen.

More important is directing the contact to the right target. The rectangle between the top of the thigh pads through the base of the shoulder pads.

Further, you have to teach when to initiate burst. When do you fire through the opponent? You can't load up 7 yards away and come flying in out of control. You're probably going to miss; and if you don't, you're probably going to hurt someone - probably yourself.

Likewise, you can't plant yourself where you think a receiver is going to end up, just so you can take a kill shot at him. The likelihood that he'll be where you expect him, in the position you expect him is very low. You're much more likely to hit him in the head - because usually that's the last thing to come down - or miss him altogether.

Great players can generate an amazing amount of force in a very short distance. If you're in good football position and have good muscle control of your quads and glutes, you can really deliver precise, destructive impact at close range.

Those are the things I teach.

-jj

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by jason j

We've covered this at some length in another thread. But the short answer is we teach players to see what they hit. Ideally you will make contact with the shoulder first. But, in reality, the facemask may get there first. That said, the brunt of the force should be delivered with the shoulder.

If you have your head up and eyes open, your body's natural electronics will minimize the amount of force you take with your head. It's instinct. The way guys overcome this instinct is to look away or close their eyes. That's where the injuries happen.

More important is directing the contact to the right target. The rectangle between the top of the thigh pads through the base of the shoulder pads.

Further, you have to teach when to initiate burst. When do you fire through the opponent? You can't load up 7 yards away and come flying in out of control. You're probably going to miss; and if you don't, you're probably going to hurt someone - probably yourself.

Likewise, you can't plant yourself where you think a receiver is going to end up, just so you can take a kill shot at him. The likelihood that he'll be where you expect him, in the position you expect him is very low. You're much more likely to hit him in the head - because usually that's the last thing to come down - or miss him altogether.

Great players can generate an amazing amount of force in a very short distance. If you're in good football position and have good muscle control of your quads and glutes, you can really deliver precise, destructive impact at close range.

Those are the things I teach.

-jj

Thanks Jason! I've taught tackling at the high school level but I wanted someone else that had a similar role to explain it so it didn't sound so rivalry-induced by me being upset the league never flags Pitt for these hits. I also like the way you articulate things where I would require a visual aide of demonstration volunteer to show kids as I'm explaining a text book form tackle. We started all teachings with a demonstration with explanation. Then we partnered players up for a walk through whether it's fitting the block or fitting the tackle. They when do it in slow motion with form tackling straight ahead and via pursuit angles. It always seemed to be a good habit forming drill before we went full speed with everything.

In football, as you've alluded to. Defenders get so many different opportunities in space. Open field tackling with a shifty runner requires a defender to need to square up instead of go for the kill. Going for the killshot with the head down takes their eyes off of a runner with great field vision who may see them. On the other hand, there's offensive guys getting the ball in situtations that require them to slow down to make the catch, come back to the ball or turn around and adjust on a poorly thrown ball that gets them decleated by cheapshots from guys like Harrison. When adefender lines up a guy in that vulnerability and he knows they don't see him - then he knows ha can do exactly what harrison enjoyed doign last Sunday. Head down with a 5-10 yard head start on the collision.

When rule changes to promote more scoring are increasing the frequency to put the football in the air - I expect the tendency to continue with these killshots and head shots UNLESS the NFL starts suspending players from games. The OTHER option is for the NFL to go back to what it was before the rule changes made this league all about the passing game. This pretty much puts more guys in space with blind eyes to defenders coming at them with full heads of steam.

Why do we suppose the college game is less frequent with these violent hits? They're using more spread offenses where they run at the defense and not the other way around. I don't think we ever saw replays of the Packers in the 60s losing 2 starters to concussions while they were running at and through defenses. At least smashmouth football is all taking place infront of the eyes which enables those in the collision to prepare for the hit rather than being defenseless for it IMO.

I'm old school so I never even liked the changes that took place when blockers could extend their arms because now holding can get called whenever an official wants to throw a flag. And a pet peave of mine is a pancake block is NOT holding even though I've seen it flagged way too much.
- Tom F.

[Legacy Fan]

Originally Posted by Steeler SChuck

Now you're getting it.

Ever play football?

If you have, even in the slow-mo version that schlocks like us have played you might appreciate that you can't react on a split second when someone equally reacts on that same split second.

When you start to insert your opinion of intent on close hits like this - and it's truly a close hit, then you start to venture into that gray matter area that becomes very subjective.

Flagging/fining a guy who spears a guy with his helmet from behind is a slam dunk. Others, it's a different perspective.

Fining Harrison $75k for that hit was a joke and purists are clearly making the case.

Look - I understand your bias, but regardless if you believe me or not - if the same thing happened to Hines Ward, I wouldn't be shitting the bed over the issue.

I don't post here much, but I'm an honest, objective guy. For what it's worth.

Post of the year. This is hilarious. I'm biased and you're objective. If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit. We get it.

Look - not surprisingly - you've missed the point. James Harrison's shitrod tackling technique is independent of all other variables in this equation. THAT is my point.

The version of football you & I played doesn't matter. Reaction times don't matter. How/Why/When MoMass crouched doesn't matter. Farrior (I think) tackling Cribbs 1st, therefore altering his plane doesn't matter. Harrison's roid problem might matter, but probably doesn't.
James Harrison lead with the crown of his helmet to spear his opponents in each scenario. THAT is what matters. THAT is the issue. I'd be saying the same thing even if Harrison ran on the field in a fit of HulkRoidRage and speared your Rapist Quarterback.