Can we fire Brian Daboll now? Please?

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Soooo.....you think Daboll created this offense around a deep threat we don't have?

You only read what you want to read. I'm not going to state for the 10th time the type of offense that we run. We need a deep threat to make this offense complete. Is this not obvious? Daboll didn't "create" this offense, he runs it.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Dabolls playbook is designed to take what the defense gives you.

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

If this offense was really and truly built off what the defense gives you, then we'd have more quick hitters to take advantage of the rush coming at the rookie QB.

You only throw to those who are open.

[DeadWombat]

Oh come on TBPP.... don't do the "I'm going to quote and separately argue every single point you make" route....

Now I'm going to have to do the same and it's just gonna get into one huge mess of an argument.



I want proof that our WRs suck this much. Really. I find it hard to believe that each one is more sucky than some of the worst secondaries in the league and never gets open. Cause if I remember correctly, our WRs DO get open.Hell, sometimes Colt throws to our WRs even when they're closely covered, and he makes the pass anyway, which is awesome. The problem is we're too busy calling Hillis up the middle, or passing to Hillis or Watson to give the WRs the ball more. I'm not saying that our WRs are wide open on every pass play here, but you make it sound like we have paraplegics for receivers.

How is this offense built around a deep threat? I don't see us sending MoMass out on a fly very often. Maybe I'm missing it, I dunno. I will tell you though, that whenever it's 3rd and +10, we run a draw play to Hillis. Yes, we call a rushing play on the one time we really, really, really would want to throw the ball. To me, that says the opposite of having a gameplan built around a deep threat. Plus, you are directly contradicting exactly what Holmgren gave in his press conference during the bye week when he was talking about how little the WRs are featured in the passing game.

“Let’s not jump on the receivers too much here,” Holmgren said. “ "I think they're OK. I think they're better than OK. Honest to goodness, I think they’re pretty good, but their numbers just haven’t been very good. Last year for obvious reasons, I think. This year for the reasons I stated. The emphasis seems to be Watson’s catching more passes, Stuckey’s catching more passes, our backs are catching more passes. I would like to see, as you would, our wide receivers catch more passes, but it’s not happening

You give our WRs no credit, but say the defense has to account for Cribbs by putting a man on him. What, do they not do that for our other WRs? Is Cribbs the only one being defended out there? What you said about "our receivers are never open" applies to Cribbs also. If he's not being thrown to, is it because he's never open? Does Cribbs suck as much as everyone else?


And finally, how can you call the Wildcat a dead gimmick? That's just a pure biased statement. You offer no proof or evidence, or even reasoning as to why.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

You only read what you want to read. I'm not going to state for the 10th time the type of offense that we run. We need a deep threat to make this offense complete. Is this not obvious? Daboll didn't "create" this offense, he runs it.

Dude this is the OC we are talking about. He runs and creates the offense. Period. If he is dumb enough to run an offense with no deep threat in the starting rotation, and then depends upon the deep ball off playaction, he is dumber than I thought. That is crazy talk and I don't believe it for a second, but this is your thesis of the offense so I am just trying to poke holes in it. You cannot tell me you think what you wrote. That he wants to throw deep with a starting WR corps of no deep threats. You can't -- I don't believe you.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

You only throw to those who are open.

Really? I am not dumb dude. My point is he doesn't know how to get guys open quickly to take advantage of the blitz. His offense may have these built in checks, but his QB's don't run it well, and that cannot be all on them.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

Oh come on TBPP.... don't do the "I'm going to quote and separately argue every single point you make" route.... Now I'm going to have to do the same and it's just gonna get into one huge mess of an argument.

How else do I argue each one of your "points" coherently then? Sorry I didn't follow your methodology of Debate 101.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

want proof that our WRs suck this much. Really.

I want proof that our WRs are as good as you are claiming them to be. Really.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

I find it hard to believe that each one is more sucky than some of the worst secondaries in the league and never gets open.

It's real easy to understand. They are playing out of position, and they may not even be very good while playing their true positions.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

Cause if I remember correctly, our WRs DO get open.

I don't remember this being the case at all ...ever.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

Hell, sometimes Colt throws to our WRs even when they're closely covered, and he makes the pass anyway, which is awesome.

Only awesome because he has no other choice. It's either throw to the WRs when they are covered, or don't throw to them at all ...ever.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

The problem is we're too busy calling Hillis up the middle, or passing to Hillis or Watson to give the WRs the ball more.

Hillis is our best player. Let's all fault the OC for giving the rock to our best player, and letting him do what he does best ...RUN UP THE MIDDLE. Watson is our BEST RECEIVER. Time to fault the OC again because it MUST be his fault the Ben freaking Watson is the only guy who can get open to save his life.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

How is this offense built around a deep threat? I don't see us sending MoMass out on a fly very often. Maybe I'm missing it, I dunno.

You're missing it because MoMass has proven THIS YEAR he IS NOT CAPABLE of getting open down field. We've given him DOZENS of opportunities DEEP down the field. Again, only seeing what you want to see.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

will tell you though, that whenever it's 3rd and +10, we run a draw play to Hillis. Yes, we call a rushing play on the one time we really, really, really would want to throw the ball. To me, that says the opposite of having a gameplan built around a deep threat.

LMAO These WRs can't get open when the defense is expecting a RUN let alone a PASS. You have got to be kidding me with this stuff. To me, that says the coaching staff, and the QB know what they have in our WRs. A bunch of 2's, 3's, and bench players ...playing out of position.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

You give our WRs no credit, but say the defense has to account for Cribbs by putting a man on him. What, do they not do that for our other WRs? Is Cribbs the only one being defended out there? What you said about "our receivers are never open" applies to Cribbs also. If he's not being thrown to, is it because he's never open?

When Cribbs is in the backfield, it adds a new dimension to the offense that a D has to account for. Cribbs isn't very good at WR, but he's an OK 2 or 3. Out of the backfield however, he commands 2 players. There is not a single WR on our team that commands more than 1 player on defense.

Originally Posted by DeadWombat

And finally, how can you call the Wildcat a dead gimmick? That's just a pure biased statement. You offer no proof or evidence, or even reasoning as to why.

You offer no proof or evidence or even reasoning as to why it's not a gimmick. Why do I have to live up to standards you yourself don't find the need to live up to. Apparently the guy calling for someones head doesn't bear the burden of proof, or evidence.

To me it's common sense why the Wildcat can't work on the regular in an NFL offense. Some teams will always use it from time to time as a change of pace, but the talk of it "revolutionizing" the NFL was comically overblown in the first place. Once defenses figured out that the threat of a pass is just very vague they crowded the line of scrimmage and that basically takes away the benefit you gain. Defenses in the NFLhave too much speed for it to work if you use it as a power run formation exclusively.

Guess what defenses already routinely do to us? 8 in the box. How often are we relying on Cribbs arm?

[Alo]

Yeah, I find these pick-apart posts very hard to read.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Really? I am not dumb dude. My point is he doesn't know how to get guys open quickly to take advantage of the blitz. His offense may have these built in checks, but his QB's don't run it well, and that cannot be all on them.

He doesn't have the players.

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

If he is dumb enough to run an offense with no deep threat in the starting rotation, and then depends upon the deep ball off playaction, he is dumber than I thought.

Maybe I need to clarify to make you happy. This offense will not be as good as it can be without a deep threat. Does it make you feel better when worded like that?

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Alo

Yeah, I find these pick-apart posts very hard to read.

I find them easier to read than 1 large lump of a post. Easier to read counter-points. To each his own.

[Vegasdogg]

If he is running an offense in the hopes that we'll add some pieces next season, than how the hell does he expect to score points now to keep his job?

I don't think anyone can deny that ANY offense in the NFL runs better with a deep threat, I mean come on dude. LOL. This just in -- Water is Wet.

He doesn't have the players to execute his offense? Oh great, I guess we should just start punting on 1st done because Brian cannot move the ball down the field with the players and system he has.

He needs to work with what he has, not wish for what he doesn't. That is how and why you lose the OC position.

[DeadWombat]

Originally Posted by Alo

Yeah, I find these pick-apart posts very hard to read.

Exactly. Plus, its a really conceited way of debating someone... at least IMO. Its like a way of saying "every single word you wrote is WROOOOOOOOONGGGGGGG and here is why" Now TBPP, don't take that the wrong way.... that's just how it comes across, at least to me.


Look, TBPP... starting with the first post of this thread, I backed my argument with stats from the last game and even quotes from Holmgren himself in my last post. Don't pull the "I don't need proof because you have no proof" card. All you are doing is telling me our WRs are the worst players in the NFL again and again.


And sorry... yes I will fault Daboll for giving the rock to our best player, when he's been repeatedly shut down play after play. Peyton hillis had a freakin 2.3 yard average on rushing last game. The Jags jumped on him because they expected us to run it. We needed to try something different when our current gameplan wasn't working. But we didn't.

Look: if they're rushing 8, that means they only have 3 men in coverage. Even if they have 3 CBs that can perfectly cover our receivers (if this were true MoMass and Stuckey would have 0 receptions instead of 4), how hard is it to run a 4 reciever set with Evan Moore and Ben Watson out there and make a play? How hard is it to run a bubble screen to MoMass wide right and let him run down the sideline? You're acting like we need 3 Randy Mosses to have a passing game, but we don't. This is where creative playcalling would come in to play. But we don't try new and different things. We just run the same damn plays over and over again and expect things to change.

[DeadWombat]

edit: double post, somehow.

[Vegasdogg]

I am not trying to be a dick TBPP. I am just frustrated as fuck right now.

[golfer704u]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how throwing the ball 18 times and running it 11 in our first three offensive series equals that we were trying to establish the run too much and not mixing in passes enough.

To me it was clear, the orginal game plan was to pass more, however it became clear that our turnstiles...errr I mean offensive lineman... were not able to protect our rookie QB. Our rookie QB hurt his ankle, and our defense gave us the lead.

It was ONLY THEN that the game plan went more conservative, and we still drove for the go ahead score at the end of the game.

And then our defense that everyone wants to crown let the other team drive the length of the field and score a last minute TD for the second game in a row.

But I don't blame the defense for this loss either. There is enough blame to go around. But to start a "FIRE DABOL NOW!!!!!111" thread after every loss is starting to get old.