Cleveland Browns Head Coach Eric Mangini: Should He Stay or Should He Go?

[Jax Dawg]

Originally Posted by Masters

Tom, you can draw parallels for EM to as many coaches that washed to the side as you can the Parcells and BB. For both of those guys, how many good HC's have come from those trees to date? Not any I can think of.

Um, where did Bill Belicheck come from when he was hired by the Browns? Oh ya, from his long stint as Parcells' Def Coordinator with the NY Giants, remember? I guess he was one Parcells disciple that turned out OK.

[Sez.EJ]

Originally Posted by Masters

Heckert has in his contract control of the 53 man roster. GMs with that power don't just get players because the HC came in and said go get this guy. They don't answer to the coach, the coach answers to them. I have not said EM has no input. He's a voice at the table. What I am challenging is the implication that EM is making the final decision or making the call to go after guys. EM had significant input, if not control last year and we saw what we got out of that.

Which guys Golfer? The Heckert players are Hadden (1st round pick that was advertized as shut down corner by just about every draft review of him), Ward was advertized as a hard hitting solid saftey whose draft stock dropped only due to injury, Hillis already showed him self in DEN when he was given a chance. There is not a guy in that lot that required "coaching up" to play at the next level. For Colt, MH is already on record as saying that pick was his call. I'll certainly agree there is speculation on my part. But DawgFan put those up as if fact that it's EM's doing and giving the sole credit to him.

Rubin is one under RAC, and so was Wright (he played better under RAC and EM's supposed to be the DB guru). Who are the guys under EM that have improved significantly from when he first came on the job? Again though, HCs don't sit and work with individual players day in and day out. Their position coach does. I have not said players have not improved under EM. What I challenge is giving him all and sole credit. How many players from EM's draft last year have improved?

As for Mangini coaching guys to get better individually.. maybe not so easily seen....but what about as a team???.. Mangini has them playing better as a WHOLE.. and that is what it's about. That is the goal.. teamwork... I don't think that can be denied. This team is playing better as a team and fighting every game under Mangini.. This team gave up in games under RAC (IMO). We have been in pretty much EVERY game this year with a brutal schedule. Mangini has done a good job. There are other coaches that may need to go.. I'm not in love with Mangini..but I think overall he had done a good job.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Once again, I can speculate that Mangini and his staff have Haden and Ward playing better than they would have as just plain raw rookies coming in and you can say they are playing as you expected them too and there is no coaching involved at all.

REALLY??? RUBIN? Had we heard much of ANYTHING about Rubin under RAC? or has Rubin actuallly flourised in the LAST TWO YEARS? Yeah I know I know, it's all coincidence, he was coached up by RAC and is now just getting better naturally over time. Mangini and Ryan have nothing to do with i.

as for the player decisions. I think you are exxagerating what other people are saying while downplaying things you have said in the past.

The facts are Mangini DOES have some input into the player acquisition process. ANd I think it's good that he has less than he did when he tried to do it all. But he has some input. and he has helped make this team better in each of these years.

And again, how much of that is EM? He isn't their position coach. He isn't working with those players every day. I have said before coaching has helped them. What I won't do is lump all their success at the feet of Mangini.

Rubin started to come on at the end of 2008. He's continued to grow and show up when he got chances. He was project coming. Point being, it's not all EM. A big difference is playing time. As well, last I checked EM isn't his position coach. As far as I am concerned the continued improvement of Rubin rests with Bryan Cox. I suspect if you asked Rubin, he'd tell you the same.

I have said Mangini has input. I have said it multiple times. What I refute is the implication that he's the brains behind the operation, which is what crediting him for every guy added and their success is doing.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Jax Dawg

Um, where did Bill Belicheck come from when he was hired by the Browns? Oh ya, from his long stint as Parcells' Def Coordinator with the NY Giants, remember? I guess he was one Parcells disciple that turned out OK.

Poorly worded by me. You have BB from the Parcells tree. After that.....

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

As for Mangini coaching guys to get better individually.. maybe not so easily seen....but what about as a team???.. Mangini has them playing better as a WHOLE.. and that is what it's about. That is the goal.. teamwork... I don't think that can be denied. This team is playing better as a team and fighting every game under Mangini.. This team gave up in games under RAC (IMO). We have been in pretty much EVERY game this year with a brutal schedule. Mangini has done a good job. There are other coaches that may need to go.. I'm not in love with Mangini..but I think overall he had done a good job.

For the team play, I give him that credit and said it in another post. Give EM the credit for what he has done, not create other things to prop him up, when what his effort on those actually was is unknown.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

There have been quite a few players Mangini has has buy into the system and grow as players. We wouldn't have got what we did out of Wimbley without Manginis coaching him up. How's he doing now, anyone know?

Technically Wimbley had his best season as a rookie. Long before EM. Now last year EM and staff used him much better. He's on pace this year to have more sacks with OAK than he did for CLE last year.

[MackTruck]

Give me a break about Wimbley Masters. The guy was a turd in this defense. He struggled against the run and was bleh........as a pass rusher. Mangini did everything in his power to get something out of him and did. On pace to pass his sack total? Mumbling to the extreme.

Marcus Benard is a better OLB in the 3-4 than Kam and he wasn't even drafted for crying out loud.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Masters

And again, how much of that is EM? He isn't their position coach. He isn't working with those players every day. I have said before coaching has helped them. What I won't do is lump all their success at the feet of Mangini.

Rubin started to come on at the end of 2008. He's continued to grow and show up when he got chances. He was project coming. Point being, it's not all EM. A big difference is playing time. As well, last I checked EM isn't his position coach. As far as I am concerned the continued improvement of Rubin rests with Bryan Cox. I suspect if you asked Rubin, he'd tell you the same.

I have said Mangini has input. I have said it multiple times. What I refute is the implication that he's the brains behind the operation, which is what crediting him for every guy added and their success is doing.

SO the guy that hired Cox, is the guy responsible for the final outcomes and the guy you want to blame when bad things happens, gets no credit for the fact that the coaches HE HIRED are developing players?????

I never said he was the brains and I don't believe other people have either. But every time we want to show that this team is getting better, you want to give the credit to ANYONE but Mangini. Heckert, Holmgren, Cox, the rookies themselves coming in and playing well....Football is a TEAM game. and this TEAM is miles better than it was 2 years ago. if you want to continue to point to all the places where Mangini isn't directly involved in that, I get it. The fact is, MANGINI'S TEAMS have improved each year, why anyone would want to change that and not see if he can continue that trend one more year is beyond me.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

SO the guy that hired Cox, is the guy responsible for the final outcomes and the guy you want to blame when bad things happens, gets no credit for the fact that the coaches HE HIRED are developing players?????

I never said he was the brains and I don't believe other people have either. But every time we want to show that this team is getting better, you want to give the credit to ANYONE but Mangini. Heckert, Holmgren, Cox, the rookies themselves coming in and playing well....Football is a TEAM game. and this TEAM is miles better than it was 2 years ago. if you want to continue to point to all the places where Mangini isn't directly involved in that, I get it. The fact is, MANGINI'S TEAMS have improved each year, why anyone would want to change that and not see if he can continue that trend one more year is beyond me.

Out come is team. Individual players I don't, unless EM is working with them daily. I can give EM credit for hiring Cox as his DL coach.

I didn't say you specifically. Others have seemed to imply that when pointing to aquisitions of players and those individuals specific play and giving the credit to EM, right in this thread. The team is improved and I have given credit to EM for the teams over all improved play (better prepared, less mistakes, etc.). Which is why I said, point to that if one is going to make a case for EM, not individuals. I have also said I currently leaned to giving him another year to see if he gets them to the next step, and the next 5 games would still sway that. Today swayed it further to EM should stay.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Masters

Out come is team. Individual players I don't, unless EM is working with them daily. I can give EM credit for hiring Cox as his DL coach.

I didn't say you specifically. Others have seemed to imply that when pointing to aquisitions of players and those individuals specific play and giving the credit to EM, right in this thread. The team is improved and I have given credit to EM for the teams over all improved play (better prepared, less mistakes, etc.). Which is why I said, point to that if one is going to make a case for EM, not individuals. I have also said I currently leaned to giving him another year to see if he gets them to the next step, and the next 5 games would still sway that. Today swayed it further to EM should stay.

Fair enough my friend! Always good to debate with you, we can get a bit heated but not too personal.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Fair enough my friend! Always good to debate with you, we can get a bit heated but not too personal.

We are just two guys discussing the team we love. The only thing missing is a bar and a beer

[Sez.EJ]

Didn't Mangini bring in all those position coaches and coordinators.... That is a credit to EM.

Ok so he has Daboll.. can't win them all..but again.. He is doing a lot of things right with poor a talent pool, revolving QB's, WR's who are virtually invisible.. and 2 rookies in the secondary. Injuries..well every team has that.

I think Mangini has done a very good job this year.. My biggest criticism is his halftime adjustments have never been very good. But I don't fire him for that.. That can be worked on.