How does this poorly coached team keep winning ball games?

[Flugel]

Masters,
The AFC Championship Game was played in Oakland when they lost to Baltimore meaning they had homefield advantage throughout the playoffs. Here's all you need to see to understand where it was played so you can understand I didn't invent anything here:

"OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) -- Defense isn't boring. Not the way Baltimore plays it. The Ravens made it to the Super Bowl on Sunday, beating Oakland 16-3 in the AFC championship game. Ray Lewis, Jamie Sharper and Duane Starks stopped the Raiders and the offense made the one big play it needed. "

Losing HOME games in a Championship is an epic disappointment. Scoring more than 3 points in that situation is a GREAT opportunity to prove you're a great Head Coach not just a good one. Is this where I hear TALENT matters just as much as calling the Xs and OS? Hmmmm, could have sworn I tried to articulate this when the offense had 9 new faces and backup caliber QBs in Cleveland last year. But Mangini wasn't from Sandusky Ohio so it was blast away at him and the OC and man did people ever! Unfortunately, when it comes to freak plays that benefitted dynasties like NE or Pittsburgh vrs the Raiders - we can't erase the Immaculate Reception or Tuck Rule any more than we'd love to. I'm with you there. But just like in boxing - if you don't knockout the Champ, then nobody remembers you except those clinging to sour grapes.

Can we get back to the context of I'm not sold Gruden is this "can't miss upgrade" to Mangini on the roster the Browns had going into 2009, not to be confused with the TB team that was only missing Brad Johnson as the final piece of the puzzle?

It's way different. In 2009, this is actually what Mangini added BEFORE Holmgren and Heckert:
1) Brian Schaefering - was there a more silent transaction made than this guy that is so helpful on gameday? There can't be!
2) David Bowens - he may be old, he may be tired but that doesn't mean he's unispired...
3) Marcus Benard - Ummmm, who gives a shit about Veikune when this guy is everythign we wanted Veikune to be at less cake.
4) Alex Mack - Quietly one of the reasons our running game became unstoppable near the end of 09 and helps Hillis this year.
5) Kenyon Coleman - Was having one of his best years prior to a high ankle sprain.
6) Matt Roth - you want sic em, sock em & sack em? The former DI wrestler epitomizes playing with leverage & removing an OT's legs.
7) Evan Moore - I like the way Evansville Central gets stealthed into the lineup for big plays.
8) Reggie Hodges - STs player of the month leading the NFL with punts inside the 10 yard line
9) Derreck Robinson - solid rotation guy
10) MoMass - Let's see what he looks like when we add a #1 WR or ex-factor next year
11) Chansi Stuckey - I see enough improvenet in him to wonder why they don't start him over Robo
12) Abram Elam - Count the big plays and turnovers since the NE game and/or the absence of Eric Wright
13) Blake Costanzo - was a STs ace until injury
14) Jason Trusnik - good backup that can play inside or outside
15) Eric Barton - Not one of my favorite ex-Jets here; but D'Qwell is injured again so the staff thinks enough of him to start him.

I thinks it's a better head start for a team with only 1 keeper from the 2008 draft, plus only 4 draft picks scheduled for 2009 + expensive roster plaque like Donte Stallworth, Braylon Edwards, Shaun Smith, Dave Zastudil, Corey Williams (another 4-3 scheme one gap defender overpaid for 2 gap football he had no business playing here), Jamal Lewis (who didn't want to work more than 2 hours a day for a few million $). Mangini inherited that instead of created it. Some of the BEST moves made were pink slips to overpaid malcontents, misplaced talents (in wrong schemes) and oft-injured. Unfortunately, there's a reality that implies you have to take a major step backward before the first step forward is possible with this type of environment. When there's 9 new faces in the offensive huddle and they finish 4-0 in spite of it - it's a trend I can confidently call progress. When we understand there was no front office in tact above the Head Coach at the time of hire - I saw the following choices:
1) Give us an ostrich pose placing head in the sand and keep all the Savage stiffs while adhering to just the 4 draft picks scheduled.
2) Understand the coaching tree of Bill Parcells and BB likes to be actively inviolved in GETTING the ingredients their performance is going to be evaluated by.

If we got the wrong guy - he chooses choice #1. But we got the right guy; so there was quite a foundation in place to make Heckert's and Holmgren's first year with us MUCH more ergonomically easier. Alot of the stiffs were already gone for H&H; and we had a winning streak in the process. I'm surprised there's so many critics that think this team is as unwatchable as they were in 2008. Not even close. I'm gonna swim against the currents of popular opinion and say Mangini's 2009 moves actually made life in 2010 considerably easier for Heckert & Holmgren than what Mangini walked into in 2009.

[DeadWombat]

After all that running we attempted in the game, I was just pissed off and frustrated. We've seen this too many times...

However, I am very surprised that we suddenly started passing in the 4th quarter..... and almost as surprised that it was working.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looked like it was a..... a.... a gametime adjustment by the coaching staff!

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Masters,
The AFC Championship Game was played in Oakland when they lost to Baltimore meaning they had homefield advantage throughout the playoffs. Here's all you need to see to understand where it was played so you can understand I didn't invent anything there:

"OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) -- Defense isn't boring. Not the way Baltimore plays it.
The Ravens made it to the Super Bowl on Sunday, beating Oakland 16-3 in the AFC championship game. Ray Lewis, Jamie Sharper and Duane Starks stopped the Raiders and the offense made the one big play it needed. "

I thought you were referring to the last season Gruden was in OAK, which following that season is when what's his name (the no name coach you followed your home field advantage statement with) got them to the SB after Gruden left (notice what happened to that team and that coach the next year when he could no longer ride what Gruden created). My bad, we just weren't talking the same games

The one you mention above was before the NE AFC title game, and two years before OAK made it to the SB w/o Gruden as the HC (so Gruden had OAK in back to back title games). The game you are mentioning featured Gannon going down with an injury early in that game on cheap hit that got Goose fined 10K. Not many teams win a title game when their starting QB goes down with an injury early in that game.

Originally Posted by Flugel

Unfortunately, when it comes to freak plays that benefitted dynasties like NE or Pittsburgh vrs the Raiders - we can't erase the Immaculate Reception or Tuck Rule any more than we'd love to. I'm with you there. But just like in boxing - if you don't knockout the Champ, then nobody remembers you except those clinging to sour grapes.

Very true. But when trying to knock down the accomplishments of Gruden those factors do matter and are not sour grapes. They are realities of the history.

Originally Posted by Flugel

Can we get back to the context of I'm not sold Gruden is this can't miss upgrade to Mangini on the roster the Browns had going into 2009, not to be confused with the TB team that was only missing Brad Johnson as the final piece of the puzzle?

Don't disagree with you on not being sold Gruden is some can't miss upgrade to Mangini (again, I am not saying hire Gruden, I am simply debating the knocks on Gruden as a HC in general). I don't know what 2009 has to do with anything, as most people that are talking about Gruden replacing EM are talking next year and going forward, not Gruden could have done better starting in 2009.

TB was more than Brad Johnson away from the SB. They were having an offense in general away from getting to a SB. Those TB teams under Dungy were one dimensional, D only. Which is why they couldn't win outside of warm weather or get further in the playoffs.

Originally Posted by Flugel

It's way different. In 2009, this is actually what Mangini added BEFORE Holmgren and Heckert:
1) Brian Schaefering - was there a more silent transaction made than this guy that is so helpful on gameday? There can't be!

Over valuing the guy. He's a back up and nice depth, but nothing more. He's not a significant contributor to this team.

Originally Posted by Flugel

2) David Bowens - he may be old, he may be tired but that doesn't mean he's unispired...

A nice vet to have on your team, who after having one career day fans now want to over value.

Originally Posted by Flugel

3) Marcus Benard - Ummmm, who gives a shit about Veikune when this guy is everythign we wanted Veikune to be at less cake.

I very nice find as an undrafted player. EM gets kudos for that. But does not erase Veikune at all. As Browns fans we should know what wasting high draft picks does to a team. What CLE should have ended up with is this great find and solid player from that 2nd round pick.

Originally Posted by Flugel

4) Alex Mack - Quietly one of the reasons our running game became unstoppable near the end of 09 and helps Hillis this year.

A very good pick. Problem here is the value EM got from his trade backs in the draft, including his trade of the 5th pick to the Jets, who were going to use it on Sanchez.

Originally Posted by Flugel

5) Kenyon Coleman - Was having one of his best years prior to a high ankle sprain.

Over valuing. A nice back up player to have and depth, but that's it.

Originally Posted by Flugel

6) Matt Roth - you want sic em, sock em & sack em? The former DI wrestler epitomizes playing with leverage & removing an OT's legs.

A very good player. But let's not make a lot out of making a waiver claim on a guy at a position of need and CLE only got him because they had the crappiest record of any team that made a claim on him.

Originally Posted by Flugel

7) Evan Moore - I like the way Evansville Central gets stealthed into the lineup for big plays.

Again, a nice depth piece that was added off of GBs practice squad after a TE went down with an injury.

Originally Posted by Flugel

8) Reggie Hodges - STs player of the month leading the NFL with punts inside the 10 yard line

A very nice signing after an injury. Still a punter though.

Originally Posted by Flugel

9) Derreck Robinson - solid rotation guy

Hardly. Guy is barely seeing the field and CLE is playing Adams in the dime again because this guy has done zero. Of course he was a pick up this year, not last so no an EM find or pick up. Guy didn't play a down in 2008 or 2009.

Originally Posted by Flugel

10) MoMass - Let's see what he looks like when we add a #1 WR or ex-factor next year

He'll still look like a guy who can't run routes, doesn't know the plays, and can't track the ball. You don't take a guy in the 2nd round in hopes he might be a decent #2 after you go find some other guy to take coverage away from him. Not like teams are doubling MoMass now, so what does a #1 even do for him? Nothing.

Originally Posted by Flugel

11) Chansi Stuckey - I see enough improvenet in him to wonder why they don't start him over Robo

He's a slot player and two small to get off bump coverage. A nice guy to have, but his type is, to use a Rich term, a dime a dozen.

Originally Posted by Flugel

12) Abram Elam - Count the big plays and turnovers since the NE game and/or the absence of Eric Wright

That total would be 3. Count the number of big plays he's given up the last two seasons and you will need your fingers, your toes, and someone else's too. Guy is a back up player. A nice depth piece to have, but that's it.

Originally Posted by Flugel

13) Blake Costanzo - was a STs ace until injury

Replacing one special teams ace CLE had with another. If we need to point to a ST guy we are grasping.

Originally Posted by Flugel

14) Jason Trusnik - good backup that can play inside or outside

I'll agree a back up. But not on the good part. He comes in opponents run all over the Browns.

Originally Posted by Flugel

15) Eric Barton - Not one of my favorite ex-Jets here; but D'Qwell is injured again so the staff thinks enough of him to start him.

Who else they gonna start? Another guy that is a nice depth piece.

Most of that list is made up of back ups. EM found some nice depth pieces, but wiffed on getting starter quality players out side of Mack. Which simply further illustrates his actual involvement in the Jets drafts. They weren't wiffing on trades or picks in the first couple of rounds where you find your starters and future. It's not a knock on EM as a coach. He's good at coaching. Drafting, scouting, etc. is a totally different animal. There are less than a handful of NFL coaches who can coach and evaluate talent.

Now look at what this past off season and draft netted CLE with Heckert at the wheel. Haden, Ward, Colt, Hillis, Gocong, Watson, and Fujita. That's 7 guys who are starting or will be starting going forward, with 3 being from the top of the draft.

[Masters]

So far the Parcels coaching tree success story is made up of BB and no one. That's not a tree, that's barely a branch. The BB tree success story is made up of zero success stories.

Parcels and BB want total control of getting the ingredients, not just actively involved. They happen to be two of the less than handful of guys in the NFL who can do both roles well.

And again, I am not saying EM has not done a good job of coaching the team. He has. There has been progress for the start of 2009 to today.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Masters

So far the Parcels coaching tree success story is made up of BB and no one. That's not a tree, that's barely a branch. The BB tree success story is made up of zero success stories.

Parcels and BB want total control of getting the ingredients, not just actively involved. They happen to be two of the less than handful of guys in the NFL who can do both roles well.

And again, I am not saying EM has not done a good job of coaching the team. He has. There has been progress for the start of 2009 to today.

Regarding Bill Parcells: -just off the top of my head without looking: Tom Coughlin or Sean Peyton?

As for BB, Kirk Ferentz and Nick Saban have done pretty well for themselves.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Ever hear of Tom Coughlin or Seth Peyton?

As for BB, Kirk Ferentz and Nick Saban have done pretty well for themselves.

Who is Seth Peyton? If you mean Sean Peyton, he's not from the Parcels tree. He started in college, his pro coaching career came in Philly as QB coach hired on by their OC in 1997, Gruden. Then went to the Giants under Fassel and didn't work under Parcels until 2003.

Coughlin I can almost see, but he worked under Parcels for only 2 years after having coached for 10+ years in the college ranks and 2 years for two different NFL teams.

Saban a guy who quickly washed out of the NFL (no points from me for having success at the college level). He also coached for 20+ years at the college level before he ever worked under BB (which was for only 4 years).

Ferentz has only had success at college, and limited at that. I'll never understand why this guy gets so over rated. He has had 4 really good seasons in 12 seasons at Iowa (unless being 7-5 is considered doing well). From 2004 until last season his teams went 7-5, 6-7, 6-6, and 9-4. Last year they went 11-2 and this year the dropped back down to 7-5. Guy is only 22 games over .500 at Iowa. Another guy who also coached for almost 20+ years at the college level, including a HC gig, prior to ever working for BB.

Looking for a successful coaching trees, you have to look to Walsh (who is from the Paul Brown tree) and one of his disciples, Holmgren. Walsh gave the NFL Holmgren he then gave the NFL Reid and Gruden,

[Solon16]

Masters Quote"Considering the Jets didn't lose a step drafting (or swindling EM/Kokinis last year) after "

I took 8 or 9 pages of shit (you included) when I stated that we got Schooled by the jets and others the day of the draft....hmmmmm

[Riffer X]

Originally Posted by Masters

Ferentz has only had success at college, and limited at that. I'll never understand why this guy gets so over rated. He has had 4 really good seasons in 12 seasons at Iowa (unless being 7-5 is considered doing well). From 2004 until last season his teams went 7-5, 6-7, 6-6, and 9-4. Last year they went 11-2 and this year the dropped back down to 7-5. Guy is only 22 games over .500 at Iowa. Another guy who also coached for almost 20+ years at the college level, including a HC gig, prior to ever working for BB.

Ferentz is a damn good coach because he doesn't get the kind of big time recruits in Iowa that others do, yet always plays with a smart and tough team. This is the main reason he is so respected. He also makes quality pro players for the ones who make the league.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

Ferentz is a damn good coach because he doesn't get the kind of big time recruits in Iowa that others do, yet always plays with a smart and tough team. This is the main reason he is so respected. He also makes quality pro players for the ones who make the league.

Not saying he isn't a good coach, but I don't put that guy on the pedestal the media wants to put him on. To me, he is over rated, as far as the media hype he gets.

I can go up and down the college ranks and find guys who don't have the big time recruits, as well as always have teams that play with a smart and tough team.

[Riffer X]

Being a good looking guy helps him like it does with Gruden, although Chuckie is much more personable.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

Being a good looking guy helps him like it does with Gruden, although Chuckie is much more personable.

hahahaha.....That could be it

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Masters

Who is Seth Peyton? If you mean Sean Peyton, he's not from the Parcels tree. He started in college, his pro coaching career came in Philly as QB coach hired on by their OC in 1997, Gruden. Then went to the Giants under Fassel and didn't work under Parcels until 2003.

Coughlin I can almost see, but he worked under Parcels for only 2 years after having coached for 10+ years in the college ranks and 2 years for two different NFL teams.

Saban a guy who quickly washed out of the NFL (no points from me for having success at the college level). He also coached for 20+ years at the college level before he ever worked under BB (which was for only 4 years).

Ferentz has only had success at college, and limited at that. I'll never understand why this guy gets so over rated. He has had 4 really good seasons in 12 seasons at Iowa (unless being 7-5 is considered doing well). From 2004 until last season his teams went 7-5, 6-7, 6-6, and 9-4. Last year they went 11-2 and this year the dropped back down to 7-5. Guy is only 22 games over .500 at Iowa. Another guy who also coached for almost 20+ years at the college level, including a HC gig, prior to ever working for BB.

Looking for a successful coaching trees, you have to look to Walsh (who is from the Paul Brown tree) and one of his disciples, Holmgren. Walsh gave the NFL Holmgren he then gave the NFL Reid and Gruden,

That's new criteria to me but I guess I can hold you to it.

Before Holmgren won a Super Bowl, he lost 22 straight high-school games in San Francisco. Before people called him a genius, he actually taught one, a Rhodes Scholar who went to MIT and sometimes corrected him during economics class. And before he could stretch a defense, he first had to stretch the truth. Lou Meyer interviewed Holmgren in 1972 for a teaching position at Sacred Heart Cathedral Prep in San Francisco. Holmgren desperately needed a job. His dim prospects of playing in the NFL were over, dashed twice in training camps, and his wife was pregnant with twin daughters. He had been a substitute teacher and an assistant coach the year before at his alma mater, Lincoln High School in San Francisco.

Bill Walsh's career NFL career began in Oakland per this article:
Bill began his head-coaching career at Stanford in 1977. He experienced good success coaching at Stanford and was highly coveted by the 49ers two years later. In 1979, the 49ers hired Walsh to take the team from ruins to success. Bill's coaching career had begun much earlier though. He was an assistant for the Raiders in 1966, a Q.b. coach in Cincinnati in 1968 - under coach Paul Brown, and worked in San Diego for a while.

Now, getting back to the way Bill Walsh does this coaching tree credit thing. Yes, he gave Paul Brown the credit much like Tom Coughlin does this with Parcells and the same holds true with Peyton. And who is the new Head Coach for St Louis? Didn't he come from Coughlin's staff?

Rule of the thumb the way I've seen it most consistently applied is the last Head Coach these guys worked under BEFORE they became the Head Coach elsewhere is usually deemed their most applicable training for the head coachign job.. Tom Coughlin was Parcells WRs coach. Coughlin's first head coaching gig was actually in Rochester, NY coaching Club Football at the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT). That's some back pocket trivia for anyone that wants it. They no longer have the program.

For what it's worth, guys don't often get first coaching gigs in the pros. Mangini's was in Australia during college.
- Tom F.