Mangini makes case for firing

[Sez.EJ]

Mangini is only allowed credit for the bad stuff.. any of the good stuff are due to his coaches or the upper management...or maybe just luck. His scouting Hillis must have been luck. along with Alex Mack, Haden,Ward, McCoy.. Elam, Barton, Rubin Stuckey,.. and getting rid of all the dead weight.. a lot of dead weight and head cases.. Mangini is not allowed any positive accolades for any of that..

If it's negative..it's Mangini..if it's positive.. He didn't do it.

[nickers]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Mangini is only allowed credit for the bad stuff.. any of the good stuff are due to his coaches or the upper management...or maybe just luck. His scouting Hillis must have been luck. along with Alex Mack, Haden,Ward, McCoy.. Elam, Barton, Rubin Stuckey,.. and getting rid of all the dead weight.. a lot of dead weight and head cases.. Mangini is not allowed any positive accolades for any of that..

If it's negative..it's Mangini..if it's positive.. He didn't do it.

Lets not forget Heckert had his eye on Hillis also so they both get a pat on the back

[Danamal]

Originally Posted by nickers

Lets not forget Heckert had his eye on Hillis also so they both get a pat on the back

Uh how about NO.
Mangini says I want then Heckert works his magic to get it.
Sure there are round table discussions as to what needs verses availability are and as a group they target specific things but as far as the job is concerned Mangini asked for Hillis and Heckert delivered.

[Masters]

Except that is not the story we have been given on Hillis. The story, from Holmgren's mouth, was that EM heard from McDaniels that Hillis, and several other guys were available. That's not scouting. That's not asking for a guy, or any of that. Do I think EM liked the guy? Yes. Do I think EM would have liked for CLE to go get him if they could? Yes. Does EM get what ever he wants/asks for ? No. They have said time and time again it's a group decision on all the personal moves.

EM didn't scout Haden, Ward, or McCoy. The Browns scouting department scouted them. EM's a little busy coaching during the scouting season.

EM gets credit from me for the good moves he's made and fault for the bad ones he's made. I certainly question throwing a bunch of credit on him for moves made after MH/Heckert took over control of the roster/personal. That's a team/group decision these days, not EMs.

[Danamal]

Does Mangini get any credit then for us going into the 2009 draft with 11 picks verses the three we had when Savage was done with us?
We can play this tit for tat bullshit all day long,just ask your self a very basic question are we better?
Or are you just emotionally invested in Gruden?

[Masters]

I certainly give EM credit for turning the three or 4 picks into 11 picks. But doesn't he deserve heat for subsequently doing nothing with those 11 and basically blowing all but 1, including 3 in the 2nd round where your future starters are found?

[Danamal]

Like I said to you before,if you want to blow out every coach who whiffed on a draft pick you wouldn't have a league.

[Masters]

A draft pick (singular)? Last year was plural. So people should praise him only for gaining more picks but not criticize him for subsequently doing nothing with them? He's not above criticism by fans, media, or anyone. It's fans prerogative to criticize. They are paying for the product.

I haven't said EM should be fired, so I don't even follow your blow out ever coach line. But if you look at the history, coaches (who normally don't control the draft and EM no longer does) who wear both hats like EM last year generally do blow out quickly and there is still a league. There is pretty much only two guys that have had success wearing both hats, Belichick and Shanahan.

While I think EM has done a pretty good job with the team from when he walked in (wasn't a team with no talent, but he shipped off a lot of talent because they weren't "his type" of players) to today, it doesn't mean as a fan I have to be satisfied with still losing. I keep seeing people talk about how at least his year the games are watchable or enjoyable. The team is still losing. When as fans did we lower our expectations/standards to the point that being competitive or watchable is good enough, and above critic?

[BernietheKid]

Originally Posted by Masters

Except that is not the story we have been given on Hillis. The story, from Holmgren's mouth, was that EM heard from McDaniels that Hillis, and several other guys were available. That's not scouting. That's not asking for a guy, or any of that. Do I think EM liked the guy? Yes. Do I think EM would have liked for CLE to go get him if they could? Yes. Does EM get what ever he wants/asks for ? No. They have said time and time again it's a group decision on all the personal moves.

EM didn't scout Haden, Ward, or McCoy. The Browns scouting department scouted them. EM's a little busy coaching during the scouting season.

EM gets credit from me for the good moves he's made and fault for the bad ones he's made. I certainly question throwing a bunch of credit on him for moves made after MH/Heckert took over control of the roster/personal. That's a team/group decision these days, not EMs.

Bingo! I would rep you more Masters but I can't! That's the point I was trying to make earlier. Do you think Mangini came to the conclusion on his own to draft Haden, Ward, and McCoy? That is most likely not the case but like you said I will give him credit for turning four picks into 11 and getting some key role players back. I also give him credit for finding UDFA like Bernard and Schafering. Like you I just question throwing blind praise at him especially after how last year's draft compares with this year.

Also good debate everybody it's nice to have a healthy conversation without it getting too personal!

[Sez.EJ]

I'm still not sure why all the manlove for Gruden.I don't get it. I think the more I see him on MNF the less I like him.. he's a terrible announcer..maybe that's clogging my brain a bit.. .. He's a decent coach I admit..seems to fit a west coast type system.. but we don't really run a west coast offense.. ...and more importantly... We have a coach already.. but for those who are Mangini haters.. what about the other 99 coaches out there. Why is it Gruden Gruden Gruden??? I have never been overly impressed.. He's just ok.