How long are you willing to wait...

[nickers]

How long are you willing to wait for Mangini to "BECOME A GREAT COACH" as one poster suggested may happen over time...whats the acceptable amount of time your willing give him provided that this could happen. Do we count the time he spent in NY for surely this is what his 5th or 6th year as a HC in this league?...Paul Brown,Vince Lombardi and Papa Bear Halas along with Bill Walsh were "Great" from the start...So whats the measuring stick? Someone said said in chat yesterday "He needs time to become a great coach" Im just not buying into it...Sorry. Great coaches get the best of thier talent no matter what level of talent they have on thier squad...Lombardi took a cast of basically nobodys and willed them to greatness. Shula did it with a weak armed QB and a no name defense. So Im curiouse to see what your spin on this is...I think Mangini has been given enough rope, If they win out ok give him one more year...But if they implode against a 2-11 bungles team that is talent laden hes done as far as Im concerened...And Im pretty sure Marvin Lewis is done too and hes had how many years with them?

[hiwaygal]

Here's the thing...alot of those greats from years past need to be put into historical perspective. They were great because they were innovative in a 'relatively' young sport. The game is different now. So much is different now.

This is the way I see it (and I'm comparing to BB for several reasons; 1-because Mangini worked for him and 2-because I know that history a bit better).

BB came here, didn't do so well, we fired him. He went on to become one of the best coaches in the game today. How long did it really take for people to recognize his talent? It certainly wasn't his first, or even his second coaching job.

People learn. And there are so many variables that effect the success of these guys that you can't really judge them when so many things are changing around them. The stability will show the true potential.

I think Mangini deserves at least 1 more year here. At this time last year we were 2-11. We are now 5-8. We have more than doubled our winning percentage. That's a vast improvement!

With all the changes in the FO and everything else, I believe Mangini deserves one more year. Not so sure about Daboll. But if Holmgren determines that Daboll is simply doing the best he can with the talent he has, then I trust he and Heckert will attempt to get us the tools we need to really be what some folks apparently think we should be right now. But I also think it's possible that Holmgren does not like the offensive playcalling and may just cut his losses there.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by hiwaygal

BB came here, didn't do so well, we fired him. He went on to become one of the best coaches in the game today. How long did it really take for people to recognize his talent? It certainly wasn't his first, or even his second coaching job.

BB came to CLE and had one winning season in 5 years. The most games he ever lost in one season was 5, which was the season the move was announced. BB was never fired. He resigned following the 1995 season when the team was relocating to BALT. BB had a 4 year gap between his HC gig with the Browns and his next gig with NE. That was 4 years to learn while not being on the spot as the HC and realize the things he'd do differently.

NE was his second HC job. In between he went back to work for his old boss Parcells.

BB was viewed as a defensive master mind before being the CLE HC and during his 4 year gap as a HC. EM has never even established him self as a great coordinator. So the two guys are completely different imo. By the logic being used here, RAC, McDaniels, and Weiss will all become great HC's in their second HC'ing jobs

[Enigmatic Evil]

Mangini has turned me this season. He puts in the work, he game plans. I've read more than enough questionable quotes from players on this team regarding what's practiced, or more importantly what's not practiced. Will Mangini ever become a great head coach? How long am I willing to wait?

I'm losing confidence in him, and it's because all we ever seem to see him doing DURING a game is standing on the sideline scowling. You don't have to bark at your players, you don't have to scream at them but I'd love to see a little passion rather than EM looking like a child who didn't get his favorite chocolate bar while he's at the store with his parents.

This team has UNQUESTIONABLY turned around under Mangini's coaching leadership. The team, with the exception of the game versus the Bills, is playing consistent football and playing with real dicipline. Our D is much improved but I'm more inclined to place that praise on Rob Ryan than I am on Mangini.

As it stands, if we can end this season on a strong note. I give Mangini next season to prove he deserves to keep his job, if we can end next season with an above .500 record and the team making a push for the playoffs, showing that he can push this team to continue to improve then he can keep his job. If this team ever wants to win in the post season. Mangini better take some motivational classes and learn how to get the most out of his players not just on the practice field but during game time if he ever wants to win a Super Bowl. As it stands, that's his main flaw as a head coach.

[hiwaygal]

Originally Posted by Masters

BB came to CLE and had one winning season in 5 years. The most games he ever lost in one season was 5, which was the season the move was announced. BB was never fired. He resigned following the 1995 season when the team was relocating to BALT. BB had a 4 year gap between his HC gig with the Browns and his next gig with NE. That was 4 years to learn while not being on the spot as the HC and realize the things he'd do differently.

NE was his second HC job. In between he went back to work for his old boss Parcells.

BB was viewed as a defensive master mind before being the CLE HC and during his 4 year gap as a HC. EM has never even established him self as a great coordinator. So the two guys are completely different imo. By the logic being used here, RAC, McDaniels, and Weiss will all become great HC's in their second HC'ing jobs

There you go, bringing up a bunch of facts... lol

It's more than just saying that RAC, McDaniels, and Weiss will all become great HC's in their second HC job. Certainly, there are people out there who think that of McDaniels.

RAC has proven himself as a very good (great?) coordinator. Unfortunately he had the Opie show to derail him as a HC.

Not sure about Weiss.

IMO none of it matters. I just believe that it's too soon to decide Mangini's legacy.

[nickers]

BB was nothing before Brady...And he'll be nothing after Brady...bank on it.

[Enigmatic Evil]

I also want to note, as a player on the sideline. You look over at your coach and he's standing there like so... that's got to affect your morale as well. I mean it's one thing to have the coach fired up, feeling negative and taking that to the players and another to see your coach a statuesque figure of uncompromising negativity... I just don't know how a player can self-motivate themselves to play for a coach like that.

NOT trashing Mangini, I'm just saying he needs to work on the scowl and learn to motivate his players DURING games.

I am in the camp with Hiway, it's too early to finish writing the book on Mangini. Guaranteed if we close the season with a game like we played yesterday, the fans will be out with their torches and pitchforks and all the Mike Holmgren interviews in the world where he says that Mangini is staying for next season wouldn't turn those opinions around until the product on the field justified it.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by nickers

BB was nothing before Brady...And he'll be nothing after Brady...bank on it.

Explain the 11-5 record in 2008 with Matt Cassel at QB (a guy who hadn't taken an real game snap since HS)?

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil

I also want to note, as a player on the sideline. You look over at your coach and he's standing there like so... that's got to affect your morale as well. I mean it's one thing to have the coach fired up, feeling negative and taking that to the players and another to see your coach a statuesque figure of uncompromising negativity... I just don't know how a player can self-motivate themselves to play for a coach like that.

NOT trashing Mangini, I'm just saying he needs to work on the scowl and learn to motivate his players DURING games.

I am in the camp with Hiway, it's too early to finish writing the book on Mangini. Guaranteed if we close the season with a game like we played yesterday, the fans will be out with their torches and pitchforks and all the Mike Holmgren interviews in the world where he says that Mangini is staying for next season wouldn't turn those opinions around until the product on the field justified it.

It's similar to the CAR game, when CAR marched right down the field in the final 2 minutes to get in range for the game winning FG. You could see on the players and EM's face that "here we go again look".

[nickers]

Originally Posted by Masters

Explain the 11-5 record in 2008 with Matt Cassel at QB (a guy who hadn't taken an real game snap since HS)?

Didnt we go 11-5 with Vinny?...nuff said...sometimes you get lucky.

[Mywarrior]

Let me start by saying I have not been impressed with Mangini from the day they announced him as head coach. That being said, I will add my 2 cents here. My first thoughts were this. Since Holmgren came on board and decided to keep Mangini I was less than thrilled, but trust Holmgren enough that he saw or heard something when evaluating Mangini he felt like Mangini could actually give Cleveland a real powerhouse team for years to come with Holmgren's mentoring. With Mangini's ego put in check and given clear boundaries and guidelines, I think Mangini has proven that being HC ONLY he could do a better job. He has made many mistakes this year that has left me scratching my head thinking, "what the heck was that"? I have seen a few glimmers of brilliance just to be consistently followed by absolute boring and dismal play calling. This leaves me with a few questions.

1. How much input does Mangini have over play calling (both sides of the ball)?
   
2. I see him carrying a play sheet. Can someone tell me what he does with that?
   
3. Does Mangini just give "big picture" type guidelines to the OC & DC such as don't let anything behind you on the D (play off the receivers not aggressive) and for the O, protect the lead at the start of the 2nd half (non-aggressive extremely conservative play calling) and let the OC & DC call the individual plays?
4. Is it Mangini that has left Haden sit the bench while Wright continued to play horribly (until the JAX game when Wright got hurt)?
5. Is Mangini, in his role as HC only, allowed to change his staff such as fire or demote Dabol? (I think he is personally)

What I am getting at here is this. IF Mangini is holding Dabol back and controlling what he can & cannot call, then Mangini definitely must go, that is IF Dabol actually called all the plays against the Saints & the Pats and has been directed on how to call the other games. If Dabol is given a free hand and is this inconsistent in his play calling then he should have been replaced at least during the bye week. If the later is true then is this Mangini's call or Holmgren's?

As for the Haden example. If Mangini is dictating who plays then someone needs to explain Haden sitting out so much while Wright continued to play so badly. Again, Is Ryan allowed to start who he wants or does Mangini have final say?

So I obviously think none of this is so black and white that myself, at least, cannot say I know what is best for the Browns, without a clearer picture of who is actually responsible for what.

If they let Dabol go (and he is really responsible for the horrendous play calling on the offense with very little meddling on Mangini's part) Then I think Mangini gets another year. My gut is telling me though that Mangini is still a control freak, that Dabol is NOT as bad as everyone thinks he is but lets Mangini dictate too much to him (yes, I blame Dabol each week for the blah play calling and right now am not so sure who to blame. I mean somebody did great during the Saints & Pats game). I think Ryan either fights Mangini to retain as much control as he has over the D and doesn't take his crap or Mangini respects him and is a little afraid of him...lol.

What I THINK will happen is this, Mangini is a goner and so is Dabol. Ryan stays on as DC, Holmgren steps in as coach/GM. My reasoning behind this is Holmgren has taken this year to set up the front office the way he needs it. He has learned from his last coaching/GM job that the ONLY way to do both is to set the front office up with your people that you trust to run it your way, putting in good people that think the way you think, work hard and are dependable. This way he can work well with them and depend on them to handle most of the daily stuff during the season so most of his focus is on coaching. He left Mangini & crew in place just for this very reason. He could focus much of his attention on the GM job setting it up to run with him as coach next year. He then looks like the guy that gave Mangini a 'fair" shot, it just didn't work out, while the whole time Mangini was just there to take enough off of Holmgren to allow his focus to be setting up the front office. A new coach this last year would have required more of Holmgren's attention, plus why bother when you know who the coach in 2011 will be. I mean for the new "face" of the organization, I haven't seen or heard much from Holmgren this whole season. I'll bet that changes next year.

Just my babbling & thoughts on my favorite team

GOOOOO BROWNS!!!!!!

Mywarrior

[nickers]

Originally Posted by Mywarrior

Let me start by saying I have not been impressed with Mangini from the day they announced him as head coach. That being said, I will add my 2 cents here. My first thoughts were this. Since Holmgren came on board and decided to keep Mangini I was less than thrilled, but trust Holmgren enough that he saw or heard something when evaluating Mangini he felt like Mangini could actually give Cleveland a real powerhouse team for years to come with Holmgren's mentoring. With Mangini's ego put in check and given clear boundaries and guidelines, I think Mangini has proven that being HC ONLY he could do a better job. He has made many mistakes this year that has left me scratching my head thinking, "what the heck was that"? I have seen a few glimmers of brilliance just to be consistently followed by absolute boring and dismal play calling. This leaves me with a few questions.

1. How much input does Mangini have over play calling (both sides of the ball)?
   
2. I see him carrying a play sheet. Can someone tell me what he does with that?
   
3. Does Mangini just give "big picture" type guidelines to the OC & DC such as don't let anything behind you on the D (play off the receivers not aggressive) and for the O, protect the lead at the start of the 2nd half (non-aggressive extremely conservative play calling) and let the OC & DC call the individual plays?
4. Is it Mangini that has left Haden sit the bench while Wright continued to play horribly (until the JAX game when Wright got hurt)?
5. Is Mangini, in his role as HC only, allowed to change his staff such as fire or demote Dabol? (I think he is personally)

What I am getting at here is this. IF Mangini is holding Dabol back and controlling what he can & cannot call, then Mangini definitely must go, that is IF Dabol actually called all the plays against the Saints & the Pats and has been directed on how to call the other games. If Dabol is given a free hand and is this inconsistent in his play calling then he should have been replaced at least during the bye week. If the later is true then is this Mangini's call or Holmgren's?

As for the Haden example. If Mangini is dictating who plays then someone needs to explain Haden sitting out so much while Wright continued to play so badly. Again, Is Ryan allowed to start who he wants or does Mangini have final say?

So I obviously think none of this is so black and white that myself, at least, cannot say I know what is best for the Browns, without a clearer picture of who is actually responsible for what.

If they let Dabol go (and he is really responsible for the horrendous play calling on the offense with very little meddling on Mangini's part) Then I think Mangini gets another year. My gut is telling me though that Mangini is still a control freak, that Dabol is NOT as bad as everyone thinks he is but lets Mangini dictate too much to him (yes, I blame Dabol each week for the blah play calling and right now am not so sure who to blame. I mean somebody did great during the Saints & Pats game). I think Ryan either fights Mangini to retain as much control as he has over the D and doesn't take his crap or Mangini respects him and is a little afraid of him...lol.

What I THINK will happen is this, Mangini is a goner and so is Dabol. Ryan stays on as DC, Holmgren steps in as coach/GM. My reasoning behind this is Holmgren has taken this year to set up the front office the way he needs it. He has learned from his last coaching/GM job that the ONLY way to do both is to set the front office up with your people that you trust to run it your way, putting in good people that think the way you think, work hard and are dependable. This way he can work well with them and depend on them to handle most of the daily stuff during the season so most of his focus is on coaching. He left Mangini & crew in place just for this very reason. He could focus much of his attention on the GM job setting it up to run with him as coach next year. He then looks like the guy that gave Mangini a 'fair" shot, it just didn't work out, while the whole time Mangini was just there to take enough off of Holmgren to allow his focus to be setting up the front office. A new coach this last year would have required more of Holmgren's attention, plus why bother when you know who the coach in 2011 will be. I mean for the new "face" of the organization, I haven't seen or heard much from Holmgren this whole season. I'll bet that changes next year.

Just my babbling & thoughts on my favorite team

GOOOOO BROWNS!!!!!!

Mywarrior

While I agree in some parts of your logic in Mangini being a seat warmer I doubt MH is gonna coach...I think hes firmly entrenched as the GM...but I wont be surprised if he decides to take the coaching reins. But I see someone more like Gruden stepping in.,