Gruden or Mangini

[Joey]

The only way Holmgren should dump Mangini is if he is guaranteed that Gruden will be our coach. Otherwise we should keep Mangini for one more year and bring in a new offensive coordinator. Period

[Greythan]

THis warranted its own thread? I know you're a limited poster Joey, but this could/should have gone in one of the existing huge threads on this topic.

[PlaygroundLegend]

I think he is playing soothsayer right now

This thread is made for after this Bengals game, he knows the outcome, and he's creating a place for us to vent our frustrations

[DawgFan]

The MIGHTY Jon Gruden

Here is his record guys (and gals):

OAK 1998_Oakland_Raiders_season	1998 1998_NFL_season	8	8	0	.500	3rd in AFC West	-	-	-	-
OAK 1999_Oakland_Raiders_season	1999 1999_NFL_season	8	8	0	.500	4th in AFC West	-	-	-	-
OAK 2000_Oakland_Raiders_season	2000 2000_NFL_season	12	4	0	.750	1st in AFC West	1	1	.500	Lost to Baltimore Ravens Baltimore_Ravens in AFC Championship Game.
OAK 2001_Oakland_Raiders_season	2001 2001_NFL_season	10	6	0	.625	1st in AFC West	1	1	.500	Lost to New England Patriots New_England_Patriots in AFC Divisional Game.
OAK Total		38	26	0	.594		2	2	.500
TAM 2002_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season	2002 2002_NFL_season	12	4	0	.750	1st in NFC South	3	0	1.000	Won Super Bowl XXXVII Super_Bowl_XXXVII
TAM 2003_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season	2003 2003_NFL_season	7	9	0	.438	3rd in NFC South	-	-	-	-
TAM 2004_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season	2004 2004_NFL_season	5	11	0	.312	4th in NFC South	-	-	-	-
TAM 2005_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season	2005 2005_NFL_season	11	5	0	.688	1st in NFC South	0	1	.000	Lost to Washington Redskins Washington_Redskins in NFC Wild-Card Game.
TAM 2006_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season	2006 2006_NFL_season	4	12	0	.250	4th in NFC South	-	-	-	-
TAM 2007_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season	2007 2007_NFL_season	9	7	0	.563	1st in NFC South	0	1	.000	Lost to New York Giants New_York_Giants in NFC Wild-Card Game.
TAM 2008_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season	2008 2008_NFL_season	9	7	0	.563	3rd in NFC South	-	-	-	-
TAM Total		57	55	0	.509		3	2	.600
Total[8]		95	81	0	.540		5	4	.556

Wow, really? 57-55 for at Tampa? That is AMAZING!!! IN fact, take away the 12-4 year he had with Dungy's guys and he was 45-51 with Tampa with only 3 winning seasons in 6 years. Woohoo, sign me up! Oh, and 2 of those were 9-7! So, only ONE 10 game winning season out of his last 6...NOT IMPRESSED.

He won consistently only 1x...and that was with Rich Gannon having pro-bowl years. His Superbowl...and subsequent playoff visits, were built on DEFENSE (we are on our way there) and RUNNING THE BALL (we got that). The QB was a game manager in those years (Brad Johnson) but he had Pittman and Alstott running the ball in 2002 for the SB...then had Chris Simms/Brian Griese in 2005 with Cadillac Williams and Mike Alstott doing the damage.

In other words...this guy is not going to come in here and make us something that we are not already heading towards. A dominant defense with a solid running game and a QB that controls the offense and limits the turnovers.

Gruden does NOT have a history of developing QB's....he just had blazing speed and a strong armed Rich Gannon for a few years that made him look all world....

He DOES have a history of a strong Defense and a strong Rush game....but then again...like I said above...those two things are already seemingly in place here...so why the love affair?

[PlaygroundLegend]

You can look at those stats any way you want, I see only 3 loosing seasons in 11 years

[hiwaygal]

Mangini.

[DaBrowns41]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

The MIGHTY Jon Gruden

Here is his record guys (and gals):



Wow, really? 57-55 for at Tampa? That is AMAZING!!! IN fact, take away the 12-4 year he had with Dungy's guys and he was 45-51 with Tampa with only 3 winning seasons in 6 years. Woohoo, sign me up! Oh, and 2 of those were 9-7! So, only ONE 10 game winning season out of his last 6...NOT IMPRESSED.

He won consistently only 1x...and that was with Rich Gannon having pro-bowl years. His Superbowl...and subsequent playoff visits, were built on DEFENSE (we are on our way there) and RUNNING THE BALL (we got that). The QB was a game manager in those years (Brad Johnson) but he had Pittman and Alstott running the ball in 2002 for the SB...then had Chris Simms/Brian Griese in 2005 with Cadillac Williams and Mike Alstott doing the damage.

In other words...this guy is not going to come in here and make us something that we are not already heading towards. A dominant defense with a solid running game and a QB that controls the offense and limits the turnovers.

Gruden does NOT have a history of developing QB's....he just had blazing speed and a strong armed Rich Gannon for a few years that made him look all world....

He DOES have a history of a strong Defense and a strong Rush game....but then again...like I said above...those two things are already seemingly in place here...so why the love affair?

Funny that you leave Mangini's "winning" history out of this.

The question was Mangini or Gruden. Not is Gruden a good coach?

[hammertime]

Gruden over Mangini??

From all previous reports Gruden could never be trusted by his players.

I don't like the alt. to Mangini, getting rid of Mangini is not going to create talent!!

2 more drafts will though.

[DawgFan]

Originally Posted by DaBrowns41

Funny that you leave Mangini's "winning" history out of this.

The question was Mangini or Gruden. Not is Gruden a good coach?

Exactly my point.

In order to leave a given path, you have to ascertain if the NEW path is SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER.

To me, 3 out of Gruden's last 6 seasons were LOSING seasons....and only 1 was over .500...and that was with a team that he took over that had a 5 year run of over .500 or better under Dungy, a team that had made the playoffs 3 straight years and 4 of the last 5.

In other words, outside of winning when Gannon went nuts for a few years...and with a playoff team he was handed...Gruden has done nothing.

Also, if you look at Mangini, he has had a 'decent' QB 2x...and had winning seasons with both. Hmmm...I see a pattern here.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

IN fact, take away the 12-4 year he had with Dungy's guys

I stopped taking you seriously at that point. Sorry, but it's true. You're parroting the party line and it doesn't matter if it's explained for a 50,0000th time on here, I get the sense you'll continue with the "durrrr Gruden teh sux0rz! Durrrr Dungy's team(someone else built for him and HIS overrated ass couldn't do squat with)" Mangini fanboy shit.

[hiwaygal]

You know KoK...I used to like you. You were funny and sarcastic. You know your shit but you used to be respectful.

I'm not sure what happened (although I have my thoughts and opinions) but you've changed.

DawgFan is no parrot and the whole "Mangini fanboy shit" is, IMO, out of line.

No need to go attacking someone who is bringing stats and his interpretation of them to the discussion.

I don't want Gruden either. I can read all the opinions here, read about his successes and failures and decide on my own that he's not the GOLDEN BOY that many here think he is. That's my opinion. And I doubt there's much that's going to change that.

Mangini has built a winning culture in 2 seasons here. I think he (and the other folks) have got this team on the right track. I don't want to go back to the drawing board with another new system.

[sofakingwhat]

I am a Mangini fag. I do not want to start over again. Eric deserves at least one more year. We were possibly one of the worst teams ever when he got here. I want to see what he can do with some more talent. He owned Belecheat this year. He has the guys playing hard and tough and exactly how I want the Browns to play. With all that said, I am glad he does not have to be GM also. I think the triumvirate did fantastic last year and seem to be able to work together.