Man, do I love some Rizzo, Bentley, and Cherry...

[PlaygroundLegend]

I thought I'd post this because it would interest some. Many of you are going to hate it, because its not the most pro-Mangini thing out there but its interesting nonetheless.

About 15 mins ago on ESPN-850 this morning, the aforemntioned three were having a discussion about Mangini and his future here. All three (even though Cherry leans both ways sometimes), especially Rizzo said that it is his belief (meaning his opinion, not fact) that Mangini will not be back next year, no matter what happens these next three games. He gave a couple of really good reasons, that LeCharles and Cherry agreed with as well, other people on this board have pointed this out (a couple of them are no longer here) and I think its good food for thought.

-They spoke about Mangini, and how many people have the beleif thatthe players "play" for him. LeCharles mentions on the daily that many of our starters are in their contract year, and that they also play for eachother. then they brought up the bills game, and talked about execution. We have more talent (arguably) than the Bills, why diddnt we perform up to par? Why were we lax? We seem to play to the level of our competition. Which makes them worried about cinci today (even though rizzo predicted a 27-7 blowout)

-Probably the most interesting thing they talked about, was Mangini's whole system, from top to bottom. they spoke about how everyone claims Mangini is doing it the Belicheck way, Rizzo said this was true, but with one MAJOR stipulation. He said "Look at New England now, look at the Saints, those teams are offense based and theyre putting up 30 points a game". Mangini has a defense first, run the ball philosophy. Rizzo was speaking about how that was the mind set of Belicheck 8 years ago, and his tactics have since evolved to compete in todays NFL, where you need to put up big points. they said that Mangini's style is outdated. They spoke on how Mike Holmgren has his firm beliefs in offense, and how todays NFL calls for a different type of team, and that because Mangini is "stuck" in those old ways, and refuses to "adjust" that he has no future here with Holmgren.

It was very interesting conversation, now im paraphrasing here from what is on the radio, but here we have 2 former NFL players one a pro bowler, the other a superbowl champ, and a local sports analyst saying that our team is dated, and that we ARE NOT neccesarily headed in the right direction under Mangini....

NOW WAIT, before you flame me here, what i just wrote up there ^ does not mean that Mangini doesn't do things right. Because he does. He is a great secondary coach, potentially a great coordinator. the discipline and tactics he has implemented here have done our team ALOT of good, and it is what we needed, and he is GREAT for that. He really, is, the turnaround is enormous, and I really like what he has done. But I don't think that he can keep up, I dont think its enough.

They said that it makes complete logical sense that Holmgren will either coach this team himself, or bring someone in that is more suited to providing great offense based leadership. Still have our great D, but have an even better Offense. Because that type of passing attack is not what Mangini believes in.

[DawgFan]

I get all the points...and agree with some...but how do you have a passing based system when you are going through QB's like toilet paper in a public outhouse?

Seriously, look at his SYSTEM when he had QB's (Pennington/Favre) and I think you will see a little more emphasis on the passing game.

But hey...why look at inconvenient history?

Besides, NO and NE have arguably 2 of the best QB's in the league...so of course they will lean on the passing game. DUH!!!

[5150k9]

I thinks it's a great post. Very valid points on both sides. I am kinda on the fence when it comes to a coaching change. While I do like some things Mangini has brought, I do believe he needs to look for a new OC, and he may not which will be his undoing. I do not agree with the notion that if we do get a new head coach its another 2-3 year rebuild. The last few coaching changes had been a complete new regime(including GM or they took on GM position).

Holmgren and Heckert are the consistent and will have a 2nd year of drafts to get their personnel they want. The WCO offense if that's the coach we get, isn't to far off our game now. So I don't believe it will be a rebuild if there is a coaching change...IMO

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Rizzo & Bentley 2 of the biggest idiots in sports radio. I like Cherry though.


Sources are saying Manginis job is safe. Who are these sources? I don't know, but they may know the same sources that are saying MAngini is gone.

Belichecks record before Tom Brady was under .500.



Mangini has done a great job as HC here in a very short time.

Couldn't this have gone in the last I hate Eric Mangini thread?

[Danamal]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Rizzo & Bentley 2 of the biggest idiots in sports radio. I like Cherry though.


Sources are saying Manginis job is safe. Who are these sources? I don't know, but they may know the same sources that are saying MAngini is gone.

Belichecks record before Tom Brady was under .500.



Mangini has done a great job as HC here in a very short time.

Sanity is frowned upon when it comes to this subject.
Browns fans calling for a new coach deserve what they get,BB would agree.

[Sez.EJ]

They are forgetting Belickicks system has been in place 10 years... HELLO???? 10 years.. Holmgren and Heckert 1st year.. Mangini..year 2.. revolving QB's.. Patriots.. 2 QB's in that time.. Other than the time Cassel came off the bench for the better part of a season. (Oh..they did not make the playoffs with him)

You cannot expect consistency in an inconsistent situation

[PlaygroundLegend]

The point was that Belicheck realized that he had to change with the times, so he did

Mangini is still using Bill's OLD system, gotta keep up with the league, or get ahead of it all together... like the fricken Eagles right now, holy crap

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend

-Probably the most interesting thing they talked about, was Mangini's whole system, from top to bottom. they spoke about how everyone claims Mangini is doing it the Belicheck way, Rizzo said this was true, but with one MAJOR stipulation. He said "Look at New England now, look at the Saints, those teams are offense based and theyre putting up 30 points a game". Mangini has a defense first, run the ball philosophy. Rizzo was speaking about how that was the mind set of Belicheck 8 years ago, and his tactics have since evolved to compete in todays NFL,

The word you're looking for his Belicheats team regressed. Hmm, three Championships with a top notch D and camera crew..... Zero championships since he decided to copy the Colts. Coincidence? NOPE.

Defense wins championships.

Always has.

Always will.

[Tobalaz]

And ladies and gentlemen, HOW do you provide an environment to develop a qb?
Defense and a running game.
Every single "top" qb started off with a good running game, and all but Peyton Manning started off with a good defense to give him more opportunities to learn.
Brees, Brady, both Mannings, Ryan, Flacco, Ben Rape'n, Rogers, Rivers, they all started off the SAME way, with a back to hand the ball off to while they got up to the speed of the game.

look at the past, Aikman, Montana, Young, Kelley, Kosar, all had backs to hand off to while they came up to speed.

You find a "ready" franchise qb on the FA market once in a lifetime, it's like hitting the lotto. You've got to accept that, for the most part, you've got to groom your own franchise qb.
That being said, franchise qbs all start the same exact way, handing the ball off getting up to the speed of the game, none have ever just come in their rookie season and lit the world on fire.
Is it a passing league?
Yes, it is.
But having a running game is part of the grooming process that helps a young qb become a franchise qb and is therefore in itself, a part of that process.

Go ahead, call me an idiot, do whatever you want to me, I don't care, just read what I've said and think about it, think back to how every one of the current franchise qbs started out and show me where I'm wrong.

[grumpy_dinosaur]

Originally Posted by PlaygroundLegend

The point was that Belicheck realized that he had to change with the times, so he did

Mangini is still using Bill's OLD system, gotta keep up with the league, or get ahead of it all together... like the fricken Eagles right now, holy crap

Hmm that's weird, sure seemed like we were more a passing offense than running yesterday, or maybe you watched a different game than I did.

[hiwaygal]

I'm not gonna flame you PGL!

They spoke about Mangini, and how many people have the beleif thatthe players "play" for him. LeCharles mentions on the daily that many of our starters are in their contract year, and that they also play for eachother. then they brought up the bills game, and talked about execution. We have more talent (arguably) than the Bills, why diddnt we perform up to par? Why were we lax? We seem to play to the level of our competition. Which makes them worried about cinci today (even though rizzo predicted a 27-7 blowout)

Isn't everyone kinda in a contract year with the CBA and all? I would think THAT would have more effect on the players and their dedication than almost anything else right now. Especially if they're not heading to the play-offs.

Re: the Bills game. I'm sure the NO and NE fans are wondering the same thing about the game they played against us. Any given Sunday and all that.

Probably the most interesting thing they talked about, was Mangini's whole system, from top to bottom. they spoke about how everyone claims Mangini is doing it the Belicheck way, Rizzo said this was true, but with one MAJOR stipulation. He said "Look at New England now, look at the Saints, those teams are offense based and theyre putting up 30 points a game". Mangini has a defense first, run the ball philosophy. Rizzo was speaking about how that was the mind set of Belicheck 8 years ago, and his tactics have since evolved to compete in todays NFL, where you need to put up big points. they said that Mangini's style is outdated. They spoke on how Mike Holmgren has his firm beliefs in offense, and how todays NFL calls for a different type of team, and that because Mangini is "stuck" in those old ways, and refuses to "adjust" that he has no future here with Holmgren.

Interesting that they commented about NE and NO. Both teams we beat! Anywho - interestingly enough they have what could be considered the top QB's in the league. Does anyone think that might be why they are more "offense" based?

There's really no indication of Mangini being "stuck" or "refusing to adjust". It's like they took the war cry from the New York media and brought it here. I would say that Mangini has had to be MORE flexible here BECAUSE he doesn't have a strong offense. Perhaps he was more "defense" minded at NY because that's where he felt they needed to focus there, that the offense (with Brett freakin Favre) was more than adequate.

It was very interesting conversation, now im paraphrasing here from what is on the radio, but here we have 2 former NFL players one a pro bowler, the other a superbowl champ, and a local sports analyst saying that our team is dated, and that we ARE NOT neccesarily headed in the right direction under Mangini....

Ummm...yeah, they understand the game but they aren't in the locker room. They aren't with our players or watching every practice. If they were "so qualified" I have to wonder why they are in the media and not coaching somewhere.

They said that it makes complete logical sense that Holmgren will either coach this team himself, or bring someone in that is more suited to providing great offense based leadership. Still have our great D, but have an even better Offense. Because that type of passing attack is not what Mangini believes in.

Dear God, please don't let Holmgren coach. Not that he's not good...but he needs to focus on being the President or whatever. My opinion is he's going to retire again in a few years. If he builds a system the right way, we can expect that what he leaves in place will continue to function on the foundation that he's building now.

I don't want to go looking for a new coach again in 2-3 years. I don't want to keep doing it every 2-3 years. It's time to stop the merry-go-round.

I think if we were to list the pros and cons of Mangini there would be a lot more pros. And I believe that's what Holmgren is doing. If the "pro" list is significantly longer, Mangini will stay. It's not going to be based solely on wins and losses. I think while MH recognizes the importance of that, he also was a coach and knows there's more to the story than that.

Ultimately, haven't we already won more games than we did last year? Depending on how things go, we could end up at what 7-9, or at worst 5-11 (which is where we ended last year). Doesn't seem like we regressed...and we know a lot more this year. We know we have a QB, we had a fantastic draft, we know where to focus our draft and FA strategy for next year.

Oh well, I'm not usually an optimist, but I like where this team is going.

[Greythan]

I love the whole big offense is the way of the modern NFL talk.

We've analyzed this to death and its not true.

Teams that play good defense either traditional or turnover specialists is what seems to win Super Bowls more than leading the NFL in points scored and/or having an epic quarterback. Too many examples of "greatest show on turf" teams failing to win the championship to believe otherwise.

Also, who says Mangini doesn't like to pass?

What, exactly, were we supposed to pass with last year? This year, with the revolving door at QB and our subpar WR corps did anyone expect us to be a high scoring offense?

Regardless of the coaching staff, if we add some right side OL help and a couple upgrades at receiver does anyone think we won't be more formidable on offense? I can't help but wonder how the current club (coaches and all) would look with those key missing pieces. Clearly, QB is a major element but it looks like we might have a solution there (fingers crossed).