Berns on the Outs?

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Wait - are you comparing this FO and HC to Policy and Palmer? Really? No matter how many paragraphs you type you're not going to get many people to buy into that comparison. It doesn't fit and it makes no sense. Holmgren > Policy, Heckert > Clark, Shurmur > Palmer.
.

Is it Cleveland? Did both have SF roots with offensive ideologies? Does our current roster look any different than it did 1 year after Policy and Clark arrived? It's the EXACT same thing only Policy had more experience running a front office without being fired from that role. Did I just praise you for understanding schemes don't mean ski-wat WITHOUT talent in the mock it up thread? And here I thought we were closing the gap on the common ground thing.

Just answer this question: Forgetting hindsight 20/20, were you one of the ones ecstatic when Carmen Policy was hired to deliver what SF got spoiled with? And weren't you one of the ones telling Mz he was being short sighted about Eric Mangini last year at this time? So, in the convenience of your latest wishful thinkings - you've thrown all your previous Eric Mangini defense arguements in the garbage so you can cling to Mike Holmgren walks on Lake Erie so don't miss it folks? Dude, come on now! This isn't about trying to win a debate for cred. It's about GETTING the lack of infrastructure as it pertains to a coach's ability to be successful as well as how long this challenge shoudl take. Jimmy Johnson was 1-15; and his arrival of emergence would have taken LONGER than 3 years without a Herschel Walker trade. That being the case, he would have been considered sucky wihtout the herschel Walker trade via your criteria. My criteria is a coach can't be successful UNTIL there is enough talent to work with. Hence, the Cohwers, Billicks and Grudens of the league gave us a quick "no thanks."

I WISH I could say I wasn't excited about the promises Policy AND Savage gave. But I would have to be dishonest. I saw Mangini step into a batter's box that already had 1 strike on the count. He was booted from the batter's box after strike 2. If you don't understand what working with ZERO good drafts means and inheriting a volume of 4 draft picks WITHOUT a GM in the house - you don't want to. In doing so, I don't think your arguement isn't nearly as strong as you think it is. As I stated repeatedly, this has never been a 1-2 year fix. You think it is or you wouldn't be predicting 10-6 or you're disappointed next year right?

[YtownBacker]

When you think about it, the Policy group, good or bad was the last time before the Holmgren group that we actually had a football structured FO. Butch Davis was just that, Butch Davis and a few yes men. Savage and RAC were oil and water with a non-football president. Mangini was again a throwback to the Butch Davis way of running things. No Front Office support structure.

Even though the Policy group ended up being less then adaquate, they were at least a football structured administration. after that we were total disorganization until they brought Holmgren in.

So, in a sense, they are a bit comparable. Hopefully, Holmgren's group will finally be a front office structure that will work. Not to say that every decision they make will be the best one but , at least, we can know that we have experienced football men making the decisions.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

Flugs, what is your take on Bernie Kosar?

He sounds alot more intelligent than John Elway does lately with his public comments. Then again, Elway was hired to be a GM of his franchise.

Seriously, Dan Marino went on record that the FAKE spike and TD throw to beat the Jets came from the mind of Bernie. I've always seen that mind being the difference between winning and losing. Everywhere he went - his teams were playoff bound. Not only that, he transcended the University of Miami football program to what it became when the WINNER won the 1st National Championship there against all odds. THAT perpetuated more recruits and momentum within the state of FL than anything.

I don't know where all the Bernie negativity is coming from. The last time I heard him do a preseason game, he sounded so much less troubled and easier to follow. Seems to me our biggest problem over the years was how to handle agrressive pass rushes and the blitz. WHY exactly would Bernie working with our QBs or calling offenses suck? Didn't he audiblize perfect problem solves from many brilliant pre snap reads? That's a gift many football minds lack.

The LAST thing I'll offer up in this arguement is that Jim Harbaugh just became the most sought after Head Coaching prospect after taking Lindy Infante's Offense to Stanford to accomplish what the FREAKIN WCO never could there. Guess who enjoyed the best years of his career in that offense featuring the physical backs like Mack & Byner, a great TE and a slew of good WRs? Bernie. Today our backs are VERY similar in build/power with Hillis, Vickers and Hardesty. Watson is a first round draft pick talent looking the part again. I would think this would be as easy as breathing for Bernie to coach up especially if we added a decent WR. Lindy Infante's Offense would be a refreshing innovation to a copycat league exhibiting alot of cheap imitations of the WCO and 3-4 defenses lacking appropriate personnel.

If this new regime is gonna be close minded - then Bernie will go to a place that deserves him. It's amazing that Mike Holmgren has become God while we're 5-11 and looking like an expansion team. Those of us that were here BEFORE Holmgren and that will be here long after him will never forget how wonderful making it to 3 Conference Championships within a 4 year period was. Without Bernie, does Marty and Cowher ever make it to KC as gotta haves? I won't ever forget the golden years Bernie gave me as a fan.

There's an enormous disconnect with the players that brought us a winning tradition. For some reason, we're right back to trying to be the SF 49ers. Let's hope it goes better than the first time we were supposed to trust our SF based leadership.

[Vegasdogg]

Listen Tom you go round and round about talent, lack of drafts, and the inability of this organization to get players for a coach who went 10-6 in NY. I got news for you, based on your argument, if we bring in players - and I assume you understand now that Heckert can do just that - then the team improves. Hell, based on what you're telling me if we just bring in better players the coaches have more to work with and the record improves.

So who gives a shit who the coach is, right? You favorite got booted at the expense of Holmgren and Heckert. I would say they have experienced success in the same system, a system Mangini knows nothing about.

Don't forget one thing: just because I did and do defend Mangini does not mean I have to disagree with his firing. He went 10-6 in NY, but he also alienated a lot of players in the locker room. He learned from it, but he still has a long way to go. Mike Holmgren didn't think he was the guy to get us into the upper echelon of the NFL. You disagree. So what. I think you're wrong about Mike, but I reallty don't care all that much.

What I do know is you don't know what the WCO is if you keep referring to what Policy installed here as the same structure Mike is installing. That much is very clear. I suppose that is your little tantrum for not getting what you want so you attach Mike to the past failures of Policy. Apples and oranges.

[Vegasdogg]

Like I said if talent is the problem, than bringing in Shurmur shouldn't really matter that much, right? I mean talent held back Mangini, so it must be less about who the HC is and more about the roster.

Got it.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Listen Tom you go round and round about talent, lack of drafts, and the inability of this organization to get players for a coach who went 10-6 in NY. I got news for you, based on your argument, if we bring in players - and I assume you understand now that Heckert can do just that - then the team improves. Hell, based on what you're telling me if we just bring in better players the coaches have more to work with and the record improves.

So who gives a shit who the coach is, right? You favorite got booted at the expense of Holmgren and Heckert. I would say they have experienced success in the same system, a system Mangini knows nothing about.

Don't forget one thing: just because I did and do defend Mangini does not mean I have to disagree with his firing. He went 10-6 in NY, but he also alienated a lot of players in the locker room. He learned from it, but he still has a long way to go. Mike Holmgren didn't think he was the guy to get us into the upper echelon of the NFL. You disagree. So what. I think you're wrong about Mike, but I reallty don't care all that much.

What I do know is you don't know what the WCO is if you keep referring to what Policy installed here as the same structure Mike is installing. That much is very clear. I suppose that is your little tantrum for not getting what you want so you attach Mike to the past failures of Policy. Apples and oranges.

What I understand is this. A WCO that lacks a premier playmaker on the perimeter - increases the challenges of the QB being asked to go through his read progressions that were supposed to begin with Jerry Rice, go the other WR if necessary, check down to the TE next and ultimately dump off to RB Roger Craig or FB Tom Rathman if necessary. Walsh liked to refer to the 2 WRs and the TE as his triangle.

If you're telling me WCO was NEVER a Policy plan - I can't help you explain your way out of this one. Choice #1 for Policy was Brian Billick because of the WCO he worked in under Denny Green in Minnesota. But he chose Baltimore why? Go ahead - you can tell me what gave him the heebeegeebees about Cleveland. We STILL have them.

I never said Palmer came FROM a WCO that's you creating shit in wanting me to look bad for your convenience. I said he was brought here to install that per Policy's wishes. The PROBLEM with it looking like a WCO came with Chris Palmer's reply to a reporter when he was asked how come this doesn't look anything like the WCO SF ran. His reply was expansion teams don't start off equipped with Jerry Rice, an All Pro TE and Roger Craig. Thank God he didn't need to explain that Detmer was not Joe Montana AND that Couch wasn't about to look that good as a wide eyed rookie.

That said, Ty Detmer was brought here to START season #1 because he was a QB in the WCO and FB Marc Edwards was brought here to start for his experience in the WCO as was TE Irv Smith from SF for the same reason. What PART am I not understanding here Vegas? The BIGGEST problem with the inception of it all is that Terry Kirby was NOT Roger Craig and most of the WRs we drafted were disappointing (except for KJ who woulda been a decent #2 option in the WCO). Irv Smith quit football because he lost his desire.

Chris Palmer was eventually fired because he never got the WCO off the ground the way Policy wanted it to look. Inevitably, then came Butch saying I can do that. We continued to draft disappointing WRs, Aaron Shea was NOT an All Pro, there never was a Roger Craig or even a poor man's Roger Craig. Unfortunately, I NEVER stopped reading about WCO installations from the first day Policy arrived. I don't know what you were reading; but that was to be the offense so I've seen backups like Doug Pederson, Ken Dorsey and Ty Detmer here helping our younger QBs over the years without this WR that makes the entire offense endearing.

What part of that offensive roster buildup comprised of former 49ers was me not understanding the WCO and Policy's intentions?

[Riffer X]

Originally Posted by Flugel

He sounds alot more intelligent than John Elway does lately with his public comments. Then again, Elway was hired to be a GM of his franchise.

Seriously, Dan Marino went on record that the FAKE spike and TD throw to beat the Jets came from the mind of Bernie. I've always seen that mind being the difference between winning and losing. Everywhere he went - his teams were playoff bound. Not only that, he transcended the University of Miami football program to what it became when the WINNER won the 1st National Championship there against all odds. THAT perpetuated more recruits and momentum within the state of FL than anything.

I don't know where all the Bernie negativity is coming from The last time I heard him do a preseason game, he sounded so much less troubled and easier to follow. Seems to me our biggest problem over the years was how to handle agrressive pass rushes and the blitz, WHY exactly would Bernie working with our QBs or calling offenses suck?

The LAST thing I'll offer up in this arguement is that Jim Harbaugh just became the most sought after Head Coaching prospect after taking Lindy Infante's Offense to Stanford to accomplish what the FREAKIN WCO never could there. Guess who enjoyed the best years of his career in that offense featuring the physical backs like Mack & Byner, a great TE and a slew of good WRs? Bernie. Today our backs are VERY similar in build/power with Hillis, Vickers and Hardesty. Watson is a first round draft pick talent looking the part again. I would think this would be as easy as breathing for Bernie to coach up especially if we added a decent WR. Lindy Infante's Offense would be a refreshing innovation to a copycat league exhibiting alot of cheap imitations of WCO and 3-4 defenses lackign appropriate personnel.

If this new regime is gonna be close minded - then Bernie will go to a place that deserves him. It's amazing that Mike Holmgren has become God while we're 5-11 and looking like an expansion team. Those of us that were here BEFORE Holmgren and that will be here long after him will never forget how wonderful making it to 3 Conference Championships within a 4 year period was. Without Bernie, does Marty and Cowher ever make it to KC as gotta haves? I won't ever forget the golden years Bernie gave me as a fan.

There's an enormous disconnect with the players that brought us a winning tradition. For some reason, we're right back to trying to be the SF 49ers. Let's hope it goes better than the first time we were supposed to trust our SF based leadership.

Goddamn, thank goodness someone has a lick of sense around here and team loyalty.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Like I said if talent is the problem, than bringing in Shurmur shouldn't really matter that much, right? I mean talent held back Mangini, so it must be less about who the HC is and more about the roster.

Got it.

Did Hillis and Watson have their best seasons as pros? We even had an unemployed punter in 2009 finishing 2nd at pinning teams inside their 20 yard line in 2010. Atrocious coaching right?

Did players like Fujita, McCoy, Mack, Thomas, Haden, and Ward play impressive football?

Geez, why did those guys look so much more coachable than others?

Hmmm. We'll just pretend it's wierd science.

[Vegasdogg]

Not weird science at all. I have been hearing the players make the coach for quite some time now, and they also get the coach fired. With this logic - that the coach does not control the poor play of his players - than one can come to the conclusion that coaches like Shurmur and Mangini are pretty average.

What seems to be important is that the ORGANIZATION as a whole all knows the systems and the types of players to make the system successful.

Now sure you can hate on the system, and say Mike Holmgren and Tom Heckert don't know successful systems. I would argue you will have a very hard time convincing anyone who knows football that this is the case, but go ahead and try. I would very much like to hear your argument why we needed to keep Mangini in a system that does not mesh with his system.

If the players make the coach as you say, then getting the right coach for this system and the players Heckert and Co. will bring in should make a ton of sense. We didn't just fire a coach who took his team to the playoffs more than he didn't. We didn't just fire Jeff Fisher. We fired a guy (Mangini) on par with Steve Mariucci, David Shula, and Dave Campo.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Not weird science at all. I have been hearing the players make the coach for quite some time now, and they also get the coach fired. With this logic .

Was Jimmy Johnson 1-15 before the Herschel Walker trade? So if he was a genius that wins from the sidelines - why on earth would they need such a trade? And why would it be so easy for Barry Switzer to come in and win a SB in just his first season in Dallas if genius on sidelines supercedes talent on roster? Are you freakin kidding me? Come to think of it, why does NE need to wheel and deal their way to so many more first day draft picks than everyone else if all they need is the genius standing on the sidelines?

Was BB undefeated here when we were witnessing passing body by Todd Philcox? In NE, wasn't he WINLESS via Bledsoe the SAME year Brady took over following the lacerated kidney and led them to SB Championship #1? You're telling me it didn't matter if it was Bledsoe or Brady? Really? Okay.

To see what AFC teams are winning most consistently you will notice the BEST QBs in tandem with the best personnel gurus in Indy, NE and Pitt. Now that Pioli is in KC, they're already in the playoffs. Take a stab at who remembered how to coach defense again? Wow, that Missouri air is REALLY something. Hey, how come Bruce Arians frequents Superbowls all of a sudden? Pittsburgh air wake him up smart Veg? Just out of curiosity, how come Dick LeBeau can't lead Buffalo's or Cincy's defenses to playoffs but he's a genius in Pittsburgh? Hmmm - it can't be talent.

So Steve Marriucci didn't get fired for disappointing personnel in Detroit - he just became stupid when he moved back to Michigan? Good point Veg! BTW, that was another franchise the WCO was gonna save. Joey Harrington was the QB that never could quite understand/comprehend the WCO triangles. Not to worry though because personnel doesn't count as Marty Morninwheg would also take a stab at it. Guess what on that? He failed too. As you would tell me - talent has ZERO to do with coaching failures so in your world we can't bring up Matt Millen's name. The Head Coaches started sniffing too many smelling salts.

You still haven't explained how Mangini could go 10-6 in NY 1 year after Edwards was fired. You've dodged that question every time I've asked it. And just how could Mangini have the Jets at 9-3 before Favre ruptured his arm tendon? The year he had Ryan Clemens they only won 4 games. Talent is overrated - it's all about having the trickey mind on the sidelines as you inform me. My arguement remains that Head Coaches here haven't been letting down a competant front office since 1990. It's been the other way around. And worth reminding for the unpteenth time - if you have NOT liked any of these head Coaches - guess who hired them? Sound like a person that understands the difference between Pittsburgh and Cleveland since 90? It should.

[Vegasdogg]

I can't tell but it really sounds like we are in agreement now - finally.

It doesn't matter right now, with the situation we are in talentwise, who the coach is or who we fired. The players suck and the HC won't matter until we get the right players.

So if you really believe this than it does not matter if we fired Mangini. He did what every other coach has done since the dawn of time.

You're correct Tom. Poor coaching does not exist. It is all the players fault.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Flugel

You still haven't explained how Mangini could go 10-6 in NY

He went 5-11 and 5-11 here, Tom. 5 years ago on a weak schedule he won 10 games. So what?

5-11
5-11

Here.