Roster Under Flugel's Microscope

[DawgFan]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Dawg fan.. I hear what your saying here.... and what others have been saying that we cannot bring in one of the top #1 free agent WR's due to our being a nonplayoff contender. Those guys won't want to come here. I don't completely agree with that argument..but.. If that IS the case..There are a TON of really great #2 type guys who are young with experience we could bring in and still make a monumental leap in talent at our WR position.. I do disagree that we can just give the current WR"S a pass again after what was a complete failure last season. If we cannot get that #1 guy.. Getting 2 of the following.. makes a lot of sense.. Steve Breaston, Malcom Floyd, James Jones, Legadu Naanee, Mike Simms-Walker (actually a #1 we could get) and are young enough to grow with the team..

Personally, I don't agree with giving them a pass either...and like I said, I think MoMass may actually be the odd man out if we get a speed guy either through FA/Trade or the draft. Like it is often said, you can't teach speed. Just look at Wallace in Pitt...he is blazing fast...and even before he learned to make breaks and block, the was effective because he could just blow by people.

MoMass does NOT have that kind of speed. Which I wouldn't care if he had GREAT hands and had GREAT technique....but he is still running incorrect and imprecise routes...so his lack of GREAT speed makes him easily covered. In fact, no less than 5 Browns players (Hillis/Watson/Robo/Cribbs/Moore) had longer pass receptions than did MoMass.

Robo and Stuckey both demonstrate elusiveness and clutch pass catching ability...and BOTH can run the all important slant routes for the WCO...we just lack somebody to stretch the field.

I agree we need to bring in a WR...I just don't see it as the type of priority to use a 1st or 2nd rounder on....unless we trade up to mid 2nd from our 3rd.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Guys...the DE position is a TOTAL MESS...

While you make good points Dawgfan - here's what scares me. Does our DE position being a mess make Robert Quinn better vrs the run than anyone we have? Does it make the very next Gaines Adams of Clemson a solution? Teams aren't gonna PASS at us until we prove we can stop their running games. Jax was almost getting stupid with how often they tried to throw the ball at us (until a RB took a screen pass 78 yards). Same with NE and same with New Orleans. We had countless turnovers from those passing games and I believe our defense scored 3 TDs in those games. Bowens had 2 TDs and Elam scored 1 right? I lost count of how many turnovers Garrard played Santa Claus to us ith but it wasn't selling me a pass rusher off the edge was nearly as pressing need as a playmaker on offense that could capitalize on some of those turnovers.

This one position DE seems to have alot of Jared Allens, Aaron Schobels, Rob Burnetts, Mike McCrarys, and Michael Strahans from later rounds giving All Pro pass rushes off the edge. While I understand WR has a ton of busts, so does the DE position. We've burned 2 different first round picks on pass rushers like Kam Wimbley and Courtney Brown only to see guys like Jamir Miller and Marcus Benard looking more impressive in those roles here.

Kenyon Coleman looked like he had an impressive first month of football prior to gettign a high ankle sprain he played through. ALSO, if we do up a 4-3, we STOP asking Roth do anything but go straight ahead full boar without thinking or worrying about a zone depth he might be missing a read on. Come to think of it, Marcus Benard with the SAME reality should only be better.

[DawgFan]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Kenyon Coleman looked like he had an impressive first month of football prior to gettign a high ankle sprain he played through. ALSO, if we do up a 4-3, we STOP asking Roth do anything but go straight ahead full boar without thinking or worrying about a zone depth he might be missing a read on. Come to think of it, Marcus Benard with the SAME reality should only be better.

Again, Roth is a FA...Benard may be our only true fit...and Coleman is oversized for a 4-3 DE and is 32 years old.

I for one am not sold that Roth will be back...he wanted out last year and I don't see any major reason why he wouldn't want out again...he made himself a TON of money by being the best outside force on a bad team.

In a 4-3, you need 5 guys...even if we keep Roth, we only have 2 or 3.

As for a WR...SPEED guys can be had up and down the entire draft. Mike Wallace of Pittsburgh...arguably the FASTEST WR in the league...was taken 84th (3rd round).

[Brown Warrior]

There's no doubt we'll be bringing in 4-3 DEs in the draft and in free agency.

But there's also no doubt we won't go looking for our #1 WR in the middle of the second round, where we found Robiskie, Massoquoi, Andre Davis, etc.

The Steelers stole Mike Wallace when they had Ward and Holmes, not when they were looking for their top-of-the-unit WR. In fact, if anybody with a WR cupboard as bare as the Browns has EVER gone looking for their number one guy that low, I missed it.

The Browns went into last season with the 32nd ranked WR corps, per a prominent site that was pasted right here. If it were possible to be lower now, we would. No team in the NFL has a bigger need for a WR than the Cleveland Browns. Maybe no team in the last several years.

I'm not sure how it could be a higher priority. It's as high as an NFL personnel priority could possibly get. It's whatever's right above Priority #1, Red Alert. I can't imagine how any fan here or anywhere else could attempt to minimize it.

If just being really bad at the positions isn't enough, add in that we do live in the "passing league" era of the NFL, reigning WCO guru is at the top of our food chain, he hired a WCO up-and-comer from his own tree, and Colt McCoy is the Walrus' last great project.

He won't go shopping for a #1 WR after round one unless we already have a significant free agent addition. I think Robiskie and Carlton Mitchell could be very interesting in the WCO and there will always be a place for Cribbs... but they'll be #s 2, 3, and 4.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

There's no doubt we'll be bringing in 4-3 DEs in the draft and in free agency.

But there's also no doubt we won't go looking for our #1 WR in the middle of the second round, where we found Robiskie, Massoquoi, Andre Davis, etc.

The Steelers stole Mike Wallace when they had Ward and Holmes, not when they were looking for their top-of-the-unit WR. In fact, if anybody with a WR cupboard as bare as the Browns has EVER gone looking for their number one guy that low, I missed it.

The Browns went into last season with the 32nd ranked WR corps, per a prominent site that was pasted right here. If it were possible to be lower now, we would. No team in the NFL has a bigger need for a WR than the Cleveland Browns. Maybe no team in the last several years.

I'm not sure how it could be a higher priority. It's as high as an NFL personnel priority could possibly get. It's whatever's right above Priority #1, Red Alert. I can't imagine how any fan here or anywhere else could attempt to minimize it.

If just being really bad at the positions isn't enough, add in that we do live in the "passing league" era of the NFL, reigning WCO guru is at the top of our food chain, he hired a WCO up-and-comer from his own tree, and Colt McCoy is the Walrus' last great project.

He won't go shopping for a #1 WR after round one unless we already have a significant free agent addition. I think Robiskie and Carlton Mitchell could be very interesting in the WCO and there will always be a place for Cribbs... but they'll be #s 2, 3, and 4.

I really like Shep's arguement here. I understand we need a good DE; but I'm not sold that has to be in round 1 considering the supply and demand.

While I like the list of FA WRs available, there's some guys that might not be as effective coming to our team like Steve Breaston. There's no Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald treating him to the 3rd best corner of the opponent every week. He's gotta lineup and beat the #1 corners, which could change his level of production considerably. Some older vets coming available are gonna eye the playoff ready offenses just like they always seem to do.

I'm willing to bet there's talented DEs about to be drafted that aren't getting the predraft love. We weren't getting killed outside until Fujita was lost IMO. And there's no reason in an NFL strength and conditioning program that former NFL DE Rick Lyle (now an NFL strength and conditioning coach) can't understand what a guy like Coleman needs to do in the offseason with the type of scheme we're gonna use. The guy has never stopped playing DE so let's wait and see what he can do with 2 healthy ankles this year.

We have alot of needs so we're not gonna solve every major need in round 1 of 2011. I think it's important to project what players/prospects are doing their thing against better competition at this time. Alot of these ACC guys after Peppers and Lawrence taylor seem too few and far between. Merriman has to pass the urine tests and suddnly NFL teams aren't worried about Clark Kent. I'm weary of these Clemson and Florida State standout pass rushers that turn out to be soft vrs the run at the next level. Come to think of it, what have Mario Williams and Manny Lawson done?

I think the best front 7 guy would be fairley if he should drop as far as #6. He'd be the biggest temptation I could see tyo overlooking one of the SEC gems at WR. Going back to the competition faced arguement, Wallace was already facing a bunch of NFL ccaliber orners in the SEC so it wasn't a culture shock to transition to the next level.

Waiting until round 2 of the draft brings back memories of Lawyer Tillman, Quincy Morgan, Dennis Northcutt, Andre Davis, before we even get to the 2009 round 2 WR draftees nobody seems happy with. We need a pick of the litter that isn't the mental midget Braylon turned out to be under adversity. It felt like FAs like Joe J and Donte Stallworth missed more games than they suited up for. We've gotta learn from history here. If we only STUCK to the plan of Paul Warfield - Sipe would have been teaming up with him a lot sooner than seeing him draw Safeties out of the box for the Miami Dolphins. End result? 3 SB visits for that franchise with a talented deep threat like Paul Warfield making it possible for more than 1 RB to exceed a 1000 yards rushiung in 1 season. Didn't a team that looked to Lynn Swann and John Stallowrth enable their running game to have 2 different RBs exceeding 1000 yards rushign in 1 season? Was that be design or accident?

Removing Safeties from the box with WR talent on the perimeter was happening with Miami and Pittsburgh right before our very eyes. When we got Warfield back to our passing game with guys like Ozzie , Rucker, Logan and Sipe already in the offense, I don't think either Pruitt had trouble running the ball . Meanwhile Sipe would head to a 3 year sequence of averaing 4000 yards passing per season in an era that was unheard of. The keys to it were removing the Safeties from run support. During our years of memorable football with Sipe and Kosar, we had great balanced attacks because we had playmakers at WR and a HOF TE commanding attention.

There's no playmakers at WR today here and that has to change if we ever want to get back to the football we used to enjoy here. We got the TE, RB, oline and even the QB. There's gonna be some at least 1 very talented Jr WR from the SEC on our doorstep - what do we do with such an opportunity?

[Brown Warrior]

Rght on, Fluges. We'll be bringing in some DEs and also being creative with some guys in Berea. I could see a pretty serious free agent DE and a 2nd round pick. I could see Jayme Mitchell, Marcus Benard, and maybe Matt Roth contributing, too.

I think when the dust clears there won't be too many serious WRs on the market AND available to us. Fitzgerald and the Cardinals love Breaston and a guy like Vincent Jackson is at the point in his career where he won't be part of a rebuilding effort... he'll end up in New England. The Packers are losing Driver soon and unlikely to be ready to part with James Jones unless somebody just empties out the bank account for a guy prone to occasional dropsies.

Maybe Sidney Rice. Maybe. He does know the offense via Chilly.

[DawgFan]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Rght on, Fluges. We'll be bringing in some DEs and also being creative with some guys in Berea. I could see a pretty serious free agent DE and a 2nd round pick. I could see Jayme Mitchell, Marcus Benard, and maybe Matt Roth contributing, too.

I think when the dust clears there won't be too many serious WRs on the market AND available to us. Fitzgerald and the Cardinals love Breaston and a guy like Vincent Jackson is at the point in his career where he won't be part of a rebuilding effort... he'll end up in New England. The Packers are losing Driver soon and unlikely to be ready to part with James Jones unless somebody just empties out the bank account for a guy prone to occasional dropsies.

Maybe Sidney Rice. Maybe. He does know the offense via Chilly.

This is all well and good in a NORMAL off-season. And I agree, it would be a great start for us.

However, this year the FA happens AFTER the draft...which means the Browns have to draft not knowing if they can even keep Jayme Mitchell or Matt Roth...the 2 that are MOST like what a 4-3 DE should be.

At least on the offensive side of the ball we aren't losing starters (not saying they SHOULD be starters...but well...you get the picture). So...with the uncertainty of the ability to keep Roth and Mitchell may well push the need to draft a DE up a notch.

Just sayin....

[Brown Warrior]

Free agency might go on as scheduled. I think there's more optimism today than just a week ago.

The Browns are going to have to make a lot of moves on the front 7. Draft, free agency, and fitting current personnel into new roles. It's going to take all of the above. We'll see as many as five new faces on the DL and at LB, maybe four new starters. It's a volume business there.

On offense, we only really need one big addition... but it's a REALLY big one: number one WR. I think it's a first round position moreso than any one of the front 7 positions.

I really hope we don't have to go into the draft knowing nothing about free agency. I agree... that makes things tougher. Conversely, having either Green or Bowers there at #6 makes it easier, too. I don't think there's anybody we'd rank higher on our board... and I think the chances of both being there are about zero.

[YtownBacker]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

This is all well and good in a NORMAL off-season. And I agree, it would be a great start for us.

However, this year the FA happens AFTER the draft...which means the Browns have to draft not knowing if they can even keep Jayme Mitchell or Matt Roth...the 2 that are MOST like what a 4-3 DE should be.

At least on the offensive side of the ball we aren't losing starters (not saying they SHOULD be starters...but well...you get the picture). So...with the uncertainty of the ability to keep Roth and Mitchell may well push the need to draft a DE up a notch.

Just sayin....

Good point. I have read (from the owners point of view) that if there isn't a signed CBA until after the draft then there won't be any FA. Everybody would be RFA of something of the sort where teams would have the right of first refusal. Without a CBA there wouldn't be a cap either. NO draftees would be signed until there is a CBA signed to determine the rookie salary structure.

So, you are right, it will be a mess this year and the Browns can't depend on FA to fill any positions unless something happens by March 4th.

One last point. This team is full of tweeners that aren't DTs or fit to be DEs in a 4-3 and some that aren't DEs and can't be OLBs in a 4-3. Example is Coleman. Isn't strong or agile enough to be a 4-3 DT and is too slow and not athletic to be a 4-3 DE. Roth is a tweener, as is Bernard, Gocong, Trusnik and Mosley who I think was on IR all year.

[mario]

I do not understand the Matt Roth & Miami 4-3 thing... Miami was and has been in a 3-4 since Matt Roth played there.

He is probably our truest fit (size wise) to a 4-3 DE. All of our 3-4 DE are too fat to play a 4-3 DE that we want (quickness around the edge, rush passer) . Kam Wimbley is similar in size, but when he went to Oakland he played LB, and had a pretty good year. Roth does not have the speed of Wimbley, but it is too early to assume he will play on the line.

We would need 2 more DTs to backup Rubin & Rogers. Converting to a 4-3 is a complete rebuild besides the secondary. I personally do not like the move, we just watched two good 3-4 teams in the super bowl.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

Good point. I have read (from the owners point of view) that if there isn't a signed CBA until after the draft then there won't be any FA. Everybody would be RFA of something of the sort where teams would have the right of first refusal. Without a CBA there wouldn't be a cap either. NO draftees would be signed until there is a CBA signed to determine the rookie salary structure.

So, you are right, it will be a mess this year and the Browns can't depend on FA to fill any positions unless something happens by March 4th.

One last point. This team is full of tweeners that aren't DTs or fit to be DEs in a 4-3 and some that aren't DEs and can't be OLBs in a 4-3. Example is Coleman. Isn't strong or agile enough to be a 4-3 DT and is too slow and not athletic to be a 4-3 DE. Roth is a tweener, as is Bernard, Gocong, Trusnik and Mosley who I think was on IR all year.

Why was Coleman strong and agile the first month of the season; but not looking that way the last 12 weeks? High ankle sprain he tried playing through. I'm not saying we're wonderful at DE by any means. I'm just a little more reluctant to burn our first pick again on a pass rusher from the edge. If we got it right the first couple times, maybe I'd feel differently. And for the WRs, waiting until round 2 hasn't worked or we'd be a little more excited about doing that again.

I'd rather us look to the 1st round of the NFL draft for WR; because free agent WRs in this league have NOT been taking their new passing games to new heights. Remember TJ Houshwhatever? He didn't do squat in Seattle and did less in Baltimore. Everybody thought Boldin meant SB Sunday for Baltimore. Didn't happen. TO continues to distract. Stallworth fooled another team into signing him for the exchange value of sweet nothings. And what did Deion Branch ever do for Seattle that made them the least bit reluctant about letting him return to NE? He was a virtual no show vrs the Jets by the way.

The FA list is good but a guy like Breaston facing 2nd and 3rd best corners every Sunday would now be asked to face the 1st best corner. I don't think people are looking at that. Sidney Rice had a guy like Percy Harvin playing another WR position there at Rookie of the Year caliber when he had a breakout season in his 3rd or 4th year. The Vincent Jackson type that has freqquented playoffs won't be interested in going to a team starting over. This always plays out where only the useless Stallworth types want to come here. As much as I liked Joe J - do people ralize he was on this roster for more than 1 year? It doesn't feel like he suited up for more than half our games. The TN Titans went after guys like Yancey Thigpen after a Pro Bowl season and David Givens and Randy Moss for little to nothing in return.

I've watched this league long enough to see that DEs like Rob Burnett and Anthony Pleasant can have long productive careers on playoff caliber teams AFTER round 1. While the Rick Lyle we added as an undrafted free agent to our 90s playoff team had a nice career too. FWIW, I didn't read 1 fan saying he wanted Clay Matthews with our first pick in 2009. Let's not confuse that with LIKING Matthews. I'm just saying we start to see where all these cyberspace mock drafts tell us where a guy can/should go to the point of believing them as majority rules. Just out of curiosity, what were the names of the pass rushers that were drafted ahead of Clay Matthews?

The ACC always seems to be advertising fast rising pass rushers. We see video barrages of an Aaron Curry, Gaines Adams or a Florida State's latest and they never quite become the next Julius Peppers off the edge. Not even Mario Williams has accomplished this effect as a #1 overall pick. I'd rather get one of the promising DEs that can drop to the top part of round 2. Don't get fooled by greatest moments vrs some occasional candyasses. See what these guys are doing against the run vrs their BEST opponents. It just seems like Lawrence Taylor and Julius Peppers inspite of how far apart they were have fooled so many teams into thinking these guys are available in the ACC every draft. Kam Wimbley was NOT Lawrence Taylor; and here we are again looking ACC pass rushers. I'm not a draft guru; but there's a reason they put history in schools as a main course to study.

History says WR in round 2 not worksies in Cleveland since the Lawyer Tillman idea almost 2 decades ago (there's been about 5 more disappointments in that round since). Meanwhile, Pittsburgh found a pass rusher like Woodley in round 2 while we reached like crazy for Wimbley in round 1. If we have the right personnel guru today like I think we do - we stop allowing gems like that to fall on their doorstep. When Pitt went round 1 at WR, guys like Burress and Holmes have memorable SB highlights since then. Somebody has to make the game winning plays that have been eluding us.