Cleveland Browns: Can Colt McCoy Become the Next Aaron Rodgers?

[Brown Warrior]

Tom, Rodgers' arm strength is on a different level from Brees... and it's not like they attached a bionic right arm to his body. He had amazing zing at Cal... just watch the film. Lightning quick release and zing. I have no idea why anybody would watch and see anything else.

I read doubts about the deep ball because they didn't throw it much at Cal. I never read that he had a weak arm or anything remotely close. You really can't go from weak to cannon. You can increase arm strength incrementally (especially if you're 20, like Rodgers was), but you can't go from Pennington to, well... Rodgers.

I think Brady and Brees are still the best two examples of arms getting stronger.

[Alo]

Great post, Tom.

[OzDawg]

I'd rather he be the next Joe Montana, heres two quotes about why that may be possible .

Eighty-one players were selected before the San Francisco 49ers drafted Montana late in the third round. New 49ers coach Bill Walsh ignored the negative scouting reports on his rookie signal caller ("average" arm strength, no touch), and envisioned Montana as the orchestrator of his complex ball-control passing attack: "Joe's ….an excellent spontaneous thinker, a keen-witted athlete with a unique field of vision. And he will not choke. Or rather, if he ever does, you'll know that everyone else has come apart first." Walsh's "system" depended on a nimble quarterback with an accurate arm who could adjust quickly to each defensive sequence as it unfolded.
from Joe Montana: Biography from Answers.com

Read more: Joe Montana: Biography from Answers.com

Second is who was one person in ole Holmgrens ear .

"If you draft Colt McCoy and run the West Coast Offense, you're going to forget about Joe Montana" - Gil Brandt

those alone make me hope he can and moreso...does

not detracting from Aaron Rodgers just saying Aaron is no Montana either (yet)

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Tom, Rodgers' arm strength is on a different level from Brees... and it's not like they attached a bionic right arm to his body. He had amazing zing at Cal... just watch the film. Lightning quick release and zing. I have no idea why anybody would watch and see anything else.

I read doubts about the deep ball because they didn't throw it much at Cal. I never read that he had a weak arm or anything remotely close. You really can't go from weak to cannon. You can increase arm strength incrementally (especially if you're 20, like Rodgers was), but you can't go from Pennington to, well... Rodgers.

I think Brady and Brees are still the best two examples of arms getting stronger.

Who said he ever had a weak arm? I quoted a well respected NFL OC and QB coach that worked with 3 different Pro Bowl QBs mentioning his release needed alot of work. You use that phrase alot and you're gonna have to deep 6 it if you ever want wide spread cred for your draft interests. You're a very smart dude but you get emotionally tied to YOUR favorites (ie; Clausen) while you hinted all last year that Colt McCoy probably couldn't win a punt, pass and kick competition against 12 year old females.

You were still very negative about McCoy all throughtout OTAs and preseason before assuring yourself his arm just got strong enough after 1 good night of sleep in October. Any of this ring a bell? That's your emotional ties intercepting your abilities to be fair and consistent with criteria with guys that don't have California roots. NOBODY ever heard McCoy was weak and frail; but those clinging to his highlights vrs Nebraska drew conclusions off a pocket that never stood up. It's like beaming down from Mars to watch Brett Favre after New Orleans had been hitting him on every throw of the NFC Championship Game. Then the ONLY pass seen is the ill-advised final throw across the body, off the back foot and floating into the arms of the Saints' defense to make the conclusion "weak arm." The biggest difference was that McCoy was the leader of a comeback victory in HIS Conference Championship. Anybody can prove a thesis with hand selected data; but the better consumers make healthier decisions off 100% of the data vrs a fraction of the truth.

Guys that get drafted for the NFL don't have "weak arms" for the most part; especially in round 1. You overinflate that phrase and it's gonna lose you cred for doing so. The former OC and QB Coach was asked to compare Alex Smith to Aaron Rodgers as a #1 overall draft pick in terms of was SF making an epic mistake at the time. Understanding the keywords of that question, he said Alex Smith looked like the better guy at the time of the comparison because of the release. You know I don't like Alex Smith and I know you always have liked him. Strength of arm rarely ever seems to be why QB draftees don't make it. It's vision, poise and accuracy commanded by the speed of the game that seperates the doughs from the bucks. DA had the laser but he rarely got passes in FRONT of his WRs; especially when his throws got hurried. Arm strength won't ever matter there any more than it could for Kyle boller, who you were once really fond of pre-draft.

Aside from using an NFL OC's position, I also used Aaron Rodgers' own words that others have also read here. Why would he feel compelled to lie about his arm getting so much stronger during the time he had to work on it watching Favre? If anything, that lends creedence to what to what a non-objective former OC and QB Coach would have to say. Alot of work done there. It doesn't get any more Drew Brees-like than taking 3 years to be significant. There's prolly a reason Brett Favre got accustomed to a franchise begging for him to stay; and I'm betting it's all about Rodgers working on the release and the strength training HE said he needed all the time he was watching. Start #1 wasn't until season #4. As we know, SD felt compelled to draft a QB at #1 overall when Brees was entering season #3. Alot of parallels you won't allow yourself to see due to the emotional ties you had to Rodgers. And YES, McCoy got that recycled Drew Brees pre-draft scouting report as well.

The BIGGEST adjustment young QB prospects have to learn in a hurry about the NFL is that the speed of the game changes considerably from what they've been accustomed to. The OUT patterns CANNOT float; and when they do in a first or second preseason game - we don't panic as much as we say he needs to learn this difference. You saw 1 of those and I read you hoping we somehow got our hands on Kafka right? Any of this ringing a bell? The PROBLEM with a young WR and a young QB working in tandem with NFL closing speeds being what they are is 1 wrong turn or read by a WR can make the QB look pretty shabby when in actuality it's not his fault. WRs have just as much to learn at the next level especially on blitz adjustments, which is why their rates of emergence vary so much as well.

When Cleveland played GB in the preseason, the commentator said Mike Mccarthy wanted Aaron Rodgers to get passes out sooner this year. They felt he got hit too much ffrom holding onto the ball too long in 2009 (ie: playoff loss to Arizona in 09). There's that speed of the game thing again. This Aaron Rodgers project is at least 6 years old today. This wasn't as instant as you want it looking.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Plus you look at Rodgers play in the super bowl, his release has to be one of the fastest in the NFL. That doesn't happen overnight. PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE! Repitition. Professionals working with him to change mental processes that are developed over a lifetime of playing football. Like Flugs said, the Aaron Rodgers 'project' (can we maybe call it something else? I'd say he's a success by now) is six years in the making. This was his third year as a starter and the numbers don't lie. Close to 65% pass percentage, almost 100 passer rating, not to mention nearly 30 TD's a year. Rodgers numbers are out of the park. I read an article about him 'not living up to Favre' and I call BULLSHIT... anyway.

The point I'm trying to reach is, comparing Colt to these great QB's. The Brees' and the Rodgers' is setting ourselves up for disappointment. Let's look at what Colt has accomplished. He took the field when the expectations were that this would be a season of absorbing knowledge. When push came to shove. Colt won some big games. He showed a ton of poise and great leadership qualities on the field and he EARNED the starting job.

The future is unknown but I have a strong field that if anything, Colt McCoy will be forging his own legend, just like the QB's we continue to compare him to.

[Brown Warrior]

Tom, the reason I jump in so readily on Rodgers is that I took in more information on him than the average bear. I know what the overall consensus was because he was my first draft darling, not because I'm obstinate. I really did my homework.

The overall sense of Rodgers was that he could really "spin it." You could read that phrase so often that it, well... made your head spin. He had "zip" on intermediate throws, which was extremely obvious on film. He threw that ball that seemed to pick up speed on the way there. Kiper talked about how you could be fooled by his skinny body because the ball definitely popped off his hand.

My point: The scouting reports on Rodgers and McCoy were not similar. And while Rodgers has worked really hard to maximize what he has, they didn't start in the same place and they'll never meet in the same place. Rodgers has one of the top five arms in the league among NFL starters. He may drive the 30-yard pass faster than anybody, from loading up to hitting the hands.

This surely isn't an indictment of McCoy. It just makes Rodgers the wrong reference point for McCoy. I see the Jeff Garcia connection and give credit to Alo for it. I love the Montana reference because they're similar in size, arm strength, "it" factor, draft slot, intangibles, etc.

And replying to someone else: Rodgers does not pale in comparison to Montana's first three years as a starter at all. He's won a championship and he's the highest rated regular season and playoff quarterback in NFL history. He actually pales in comparison to nobody.

Tom, I'm not really disagreeing all that much. I just think characterizing it that Rodgers went from a light arm to a cannon in three years of watching Favre is misleading. He had a quick release and a strong arm at 20. He's gotten bigger and stronger and the release is quicker, but it isn't like he started in the same place as McCoy. He didn't.

I can live with the Brees example for McCoy, too... because Brees was closer to McCoy in that area than Rodgers was. Brees will never have Rodgers' arm either, but he has plenty of zip and can make all the throws.

Another key difference that separates Rodgers: He was drafted at 20 years old. McCoy was 23 and closing on 24... more like Brees.

I'm kind of rambling now, but I firmly believe McCoy's arm looked better in those first few starts than it had his senior year at Texas. I thought his release was quicker and the spiral WAY more consistent. The ball was popping better. He'd been working with NFL coaches since May, so close to six months.

He says his shoulder was bothering him later in the year, and I think the ankle was bothering him, too. I didn't see the same zip in his second round of starts. I look forward to McCoy getting even a little bigger and stronger and having a fully healthy wing in 2011.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Tom, the reason I jump in so readily on Rodgers is that I took in more information on him than the average bear. I know what the overall consensus was because he was my first draft darling, not because I'm obstinate. I really did my homework.

The overall sense of Rodgers was that he could really "spin it." You could read that phrase so often that it, well... made your head spin. He had "zip" on intermediate throws, which was extremely obvious on film. He threw that ball that seemed to pick up speed on the way there. Kiper talked about how you could be fooled by his skinny body because the ball definitely popped off his hand.

My point: The scouting reports on Rodgers and McCoy were not similar. And while Rodgers has worked really hard to maximize what he has, they didn't start in the same place and they'll never meet in the same place. Rodgers has one of the top five arms in the league among NFL starters. He may drive the 30-yard pass faster than anybody, from loading up to hitting the hands.

This surely isn't an indictment of McCoy. It just makes Rodgers the wrong reference point for McCoy. I see the Jeff Garcia connection and give credit to Alo for it. I love the Montana reference because they're similar in size, arm strength, "it" factor, draft slot, intangibles, etc.

And replying to someone else: Rodgers does not pale in comparison to Montana's first three years as a starter at all. He's won a championship and he's the highest rated regular season and playoff quarterback in NFL history. He actually pales in comparison to nobody.

Tom, I'm not really disagreeing all that much. I just think characterizing it that Rodgers went from a light arm to a cannon in three years of watching Favre is misleading. He had a quick release and a strong arm at 20. He's gotten bigger and stronger and the release is quicker, but it isn't like he started in the same place as McCoy. He didn't.

I can live with the Brees example for McCoy, too... because Brees was closer to McCoy in that area than Rodgers was. Brees will never have Rodgers' arm either, but he has plenty of zip and can make all the throws.

Another key difference that separates Rodgers: He was drafted at 20 years old. McCoy was 23 and closing on 24... more like Brees.

I'm kind of rambling now, but I firmly believe McCoy's arm looked better in those first few starts than it had his senior year at Texas. I thought his release was quicker and the spiral WAY more consistent. The ball was popping better. He'd been working with NFL coaches since May, so close to six months.

He says his shoulder was bothering him later in the year, and I think the ankle was bothering him, too. I didn't see the same zip in his second round of starts. I look forward to McCoy getting even a little bigger and stronger and having a fully healthy wing in 2011.

Shep, I didn't mean to sound as mean spirited as that could have been interpreted. My first response to this subject - I actually gave you kudos for being the first Aaron Rodgers fan I remembered in cyberspace so my intentions weren't to give you a hard time.

I did want to address that weak arm stuff; because I don't really see weak arms as the reason alot of top prospects/draftees fail in this league. It's usually vision, poise, accuracy, health and mental toughness that make or break guys PLUS the luck of the environment they go to. They often say timing is everything in this league and in life for that matter.

This was Rodgers' 6th season in the league so this did not happen overnight. I noticed a BIG difference between 2009 and 2010 from Rodgers. As I said about our preseason game vrs GB - McCarthy apparently told one of the comentators they wanted Rodgers to get the ball out of his hands alot quicker (because of the 09 sack volume and hits Rodgers took). Just look at the difference in how both post seasons ended to see the difference. I don't think GB made the playoffs his first year as starter, which was his 4th year in the league. I can't find a QB playing better at this time than Rodgers.

[Brown Warrior]

Rodgers improvements have been between the ears over the past three years, because he's been pretty fantastic in every one, right from the get-go. He had a knock of not finishing games and of holding the ball too long, running around trying to make something happen... but he definitely had a rocket arm and a lightning quick release in 2008, 2009, and 2010.

His "it factor" has increased each year, though, and you clearly get the sense that he's The Man when he steps onto any field.

But is his arm even better? I'd say so, yeah. There just aren't many starters with that kind of bazooka. Cutler, perhaps. I can't think of any others off the top of my head. Maybe Flacco?

[Brown Warrior]

Quick addendum: Rogers' first two starts, he had QBRs of 116 and 117, with 4 TDs and 0 INTs. In the 7 games before the bye, he had a freakish FIVE games with QBRs over 100. That's a fast start.