Browns talk to Cleveland media

[Sez.EJ]

I think they find a way to keep vickers on the team.. if for nothing else they can use him in a package for some smashmouth.. If Shurmur is worth his salt..he should see this.. I have seen Vickers catch some passes.. but more of the outlet stuff..I really don't know what he is capable of in a situation where there is an actual "route" or planned play going to the fullback..maybe he has more game than we know. But from what I have seen..his forte is blocking..not running and catching..but I do love the guy.

[YtownBacker]

Vickers can block, do a decent job catching the ball and play some pretty good special teams. Unless he wants to break the bank he is a keeper.

[Riffer X]

Double H backfield: Shurmur said he can see Peyton Hillis and Montario Hardesty together in the backfield. "Obviously in traditional two-back sets you can have two halfbacks in there which we did quite a bit in Philadelphia when we had Correll Buckhalter and Brian Westbrook. You can still run traditional I-formation-type plays but use them and utilize them as either runners or pass-receivers."

[Brown Warrior]

I'm not saying we'll never see them together -- I'd sure as hell do it -- but for all the year's Westbrook played, I don't think anybody wondered who the tailback was. Same for Ryan Grant when he's healthy, Shaun Whatsisname in Seattle, etc.

Like right now, the Eagles' backfield is LeSean McCoy and Owen Schmitt. McCoy is their every-down tailback. And Shurmur's last offense was in St. Louis and there's a pretty clear-cut tailback there.

[Riffer X]

You can keep talking about these current or recent situations around the league all you want, which is precisely what I said you do in the post you probably didn't read, but the bottom line is none of those other teams have a two headed monster like Cleveland does.

These two will see plenty of time together in the same backfield as long as they are both healthy, which is pretty much what I have said going back a month and a half ago. Vickers is not signed, so the question of whether they want to keep a guy like that when they have a two headed monster (one being a prototype WCO FB already) is pretty much a no brainer on a team with needs such as this.

To be honest, Vickers is overrated around here. He didn't even play much the last half of the season and he has probably dropped more passes in his time here than he has caught. I like the guy, but does anybody want him on the field instead of Hardesty or Hillis? And if Hardesty and Hillis are indeed going to share the backfield together a lot, then Vickers will not have a big role whatsoever. You can call it what you want, but to me, it means Hillis plays FB when it is all said and done.

[Brown Warrior]

Don't hate the idea of the two of them together sometimes.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

These two will see plenty of time together in the same backfield as long as they are both healthy, which is pretty much what I have said going back a month and a half ago. Vickers is not signed, so the question of whether they want to keep a guy like that when they have a two headed monster (one being a prototype WCO FB already) is pretty much a no brainer on a team with needs such as this.

To be honest, Vickers is overrated around here. He didn't even play much the last half of the season and he has probably dropped more passes in his time here than he has caught. I like the guy, but does anybody want him on the field instead of Hardesty or Hillis? And if Hardesty and Hillis are indeed going to share the backfield together a lot, then Vickers will not have a big role whatsoever. You can call it what you want, but to me, it means Hillis plays FB when it is all said and done.

Offensively, Vickers prime value lies in his ability to run block and I would argue he's top 5 in the league in that regard. As far as offensive potential, outside of run blocking his value sharply declines. I would like to see the team keep him but if we brought in another FB with more offensive abilities outside of run blocking I wouldn't be disappointed. I would be sad to see Vickers go though. He has value in the running game. Not so much in the passing game.

Hillis at FB, he can still get lots of touches to run the ball and he's a decent run blocker. He has excellent pass catching abilities so I agree with Riff that he is the 'prototypical WCO FB' however it's Hardesty's durability concerns that raise the biggest questions to me. He says his knee feels great... we will see come play time.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

Here are some basic backfield formations in the WCO. Note that the fullback doesn't differ that much from the tailback, it is mostly a two back set where both are very prevalent in the passing game and can move and shift for mismatches. I can't post just the backfield base sets since it is in PDF form and I don't know how, but this is an excellent resource of the WCO for reference if you bother to click the link and check it out.

http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/c...tcoast/wco.pdf

Great job of telling it like it is Riffer BEFORE the media announces it. You got blasted for saying we'd see Hillis filling the Rathman role with envisioning Hardesty in the Roger Craig role. When we drafted Hardesty, there was an intrigue about his higher volume of recepttions than MOST RBs in his draft class. Roger Craig once had 1000 yards receiving AND 10000 yards rushing in 1 season, which was Marshall Faulk before Marshall Faulk.

Hillis was actually a FULLBACK at Arkansas when Felix Jones and Darren McFadden offered up 1st round draft pick speed/talent. The COOL thing is he's faster than Rathman in FB role. That's gonna equate to many a LBer with drew mudd in the Fruit of the Looms.

[Riffer X]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

Shep, you are the apex of the definition of copy cat league. If you were a GM, you would do nothing but compare every little detail from the latest success stories and try to emulate every one of them. Want a 4-3 RDE, make sure he is same size and speed of the latest winner or script sheet. You read up and do your damndest to figure all the latest trends and football on paper that you can, and that is good, but I like to think outside the box a little and set my own trends instead of copy them.

Let me ask you this, do you remember a two back tandem that went by the name of Byner and Mack? Do you remember which one was a FB and which one was a TB? How about Mike Pruitt and Greg Pruitt--or even more recently, Leroy Hoard and Eric Metcalf/Ernest Byner/Tommy Vardell? Do you recall what a huge factor Rathman was in the 49ers success and how huge he was for Roger Craig?

Hillis goes 250 and played FB at Arkansas. He's a born FB for the WCO and could serve more as a dual tandem with another big back like Hardesty. I think it would be a great pair back there and I think the Browns will give it great thought. This is just my supposition, I haven't heard the Browns mention it one time yet, but I do think they will find ways to play both these guys together quite a bit. I want my best weapons on the field, and Hillis is ten times the weapon Vickers or the average FB is in this system.

Vickers is more of a relief valve pass receiver, not an actual route runner like Hardesty and Hillis both are. Those guys together can really create mismatches and attack, which is ultimately what the theory and philosophy of the WCO is all about. It's about saturating the defense with pass catchers and attacking the weakest defender.

I hope people take a look at that PDF I posted and really take a look at the base two back set alignments. There is no differential between the FB or the TB.

Flugs, this is what I wrote regarding why I like H & H in the same backfield. I don't see us keeping Vickers, depending on the CBA crap. I think there are a lot of games going on right now, just like Heck in one sentence saying he wants small and athletic at DE and then coming right back and saying the prototype is 6'5 if you can get it.

The Browns may want to entertain Vickers just so there is a demand for his services if they tender him. I would be willing to bet they have made their minds up about him and won't bring him back.

[Legacy Fan]

Riff - did I miss Hardesty having a record setting season last year? I saw Hillis put up over 1600 from the LOS. But, I do miss things from time to time.

All chicken-shitting aside, I'd prefer to keep a sure thing (Vickers), rather than James Davis 2.0

[BernietheKid]

Cleveland Browns' Tom Heckert impressed with plethora of powerful defensive linemen in 2011 NFL draft

Published: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 1:45 AM Updated: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 1:57 AM

By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer


Mark J. Terrill / Associated Press
Nick Fairley brings a reputation of a player who may play a little past the whistle, but that didn't seem to bother Browns General Manager Tom Heckert in the slightest.

INDIANAPOLIS -- Tom Heckert picked the right year to be searching for the next Julius Peppers or Ndamukong Suh to power the Browns' new 4-3 defense.

The 2011 draft is stocked with dominant defensive linemen, and the Browns have an excellent chance of landing one with the sixth pick in the first round.

"It's a good group all the way around," said the Browns general manager. "There's tackles and ends. Obviously the underclassmen coming out helped. There's a lot of guys who are going to go really early."

Heckert had high praise for premier pass-rushing ends Da'Quan Bowers of Clemson and Robert Quinn of North Carolina. But he's also enamored with havoc-wreaking tackles such as Alabama's Marcell Dareus and Auburn's Nick Fairley. And he couldn't say enough about Purdue pass-rusher Ryan Kerrigan, who had 32.5 sacks over the past five seasons and could be had later in the draft.

"I think everybody's looking for pass rushers," Heckert said. "Normally, you'd take the pass-rushing end over the tackle. But defensive linemen are so in demand. If you really like a guy who's special as a tackle, he's still going to get pressure on the quarterback. Pat Shurmur talked to our scouts and said, "quarterbacks don't like pressure in their face."

A glance at some of the top defensive linemen and Heckert's take:

Marcell Dareus: He's the kind of explosive inside player that Shurmur alerted the scouts to. NFL Network's Mike Mayock ranks him as the No. 1 tackle in the draft ahead of Fairley, and ESPN's Todd McShay has the Browns picking him in his mock draft.
The MVP of the 2009 BCS title game, Dareus knocked then-Texas quarterback Colt McCoy out of the game with a shoulder injury. He can rush as well as play the run, with 4.5 sacks last year and 11 for losses despite being double-teamed every play.

"He's relentless, he plays hard," said Heckert. "I think he spent a lot of time this year with a high ankle sprain and he played through it. He's a high, high-motor guy and he doesn't stop and he makes a ton of plays for a defensive tackle."

Dareus (6-3, 309) patterns himself after former Pro Bowl tackle Warren Sapp, who considers Dareus the best tackle in this draft.

Da'Quan Bowers: The Clemson end (6-4, 275) led the nation with 15.5 sacks in 2010 and 25 tackles for a loss. He's so explosive off the edge that he could go No. 1, but some teams might view him as a one-year wonder. He's not working out at the combine while still recovering from postseason surgery to repair a torn meniscus, but says he's 100 percent. He also boldly compared himself to Peppers during his interview.

"He's obviously a super-productive guy," said Heckert. "He's legit. He's a bigger guy. This is a big guy that can rush the passer. Anytime you can get a guy like that, you'd have to be interested."

Heckert can see the Peppers comparison, even though it's lofty. But Bowers put it in perspective.

"[Peppers] is one of the premier defensive ends in the NFL, and I'm just a scrawny little defensive end coming out of college attempting to play like him and be half as good as him," he said.

Robert Quinn: An enigma, the North Carolina end was suspended for all of 2010 after accepting agent-related benefits worth about $5,600. Some experts, such as Mayock, think he can go No. 1 with a great workout Monday. Others have him rated the ninth-best end and not a first-rounder. In his last season on the field in 2009,

Quinn led the ACC with 19 tackles for a loss and was second with 11 sacks.
At the combine on Saturday, he declared himself the best pass-rusher in this draft.

"He's a heck of a football player," said Heckert, who downplayed the year off. "There's no question why people are talking about him. He plays hard and he can rush the passer."

Mayock called him a "physical freak" and a "special, special athlete."

Nick Fairley: The Auburn tackle (6-4, 298) won the Lombardi Trophy as the nation's best lineman. He led the SEC with 24 tackles for a loss and had 11.5 sacks. MVP of the 2010 BCS Title Game, he had five tackles, 3.5 for a loss, 1.5 sacks, and a forced fumble.

Mayock has him ranked behind Dareus, and several mocks, including Pro Football Weekly's, have the Browns taking him. But Fairley has a reputation as a dirty player, with late-hit penalties and some spearing.
Heckert disputed the reputation.

"No, not at all," he said. "He's a tough player. I guess there's a fine line. It's not after the whistle stuff. I think it's more toughness than being a dirty player."

Ryan Kerrigan: Heckert praised the Purdue end, who had 13 sacks in '09 and 12.5 in '10. "He's another high-motor guy, a excellent pass-rusher and supreme playmaker."

Cleveland Browns' Tom Heckert impressed with plethora of powerful defensive linemen in 2011 NFL draft | cleveland.com