Multiple Choice at Pick 6

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Solon16

Tate was a 3rd...Ward for pitt was a 4th, Driver was a seventh...harrison out of football, and buress hasn't been with pitt in YEARS...Relevant? don't think so. But thanks for addressing my 8 points of light. freak

P.S. Welker undrafted, danny woodhead undrafted. P.P.s Telling me that modeling GB with two 2nd round wr"s and a 3rd and Driver a seventh seems like exactly what I'd like to do!

Plex Burress was a first round WR as was Santonio Holmes. Didn't BOTH guys catch game winning TD passes in the Superbowl? Why do we erase relevance there? Jerry Rice was a first round WR as was Larry Fitzgerald as was Torry Holt. Those names led to more Superbowl TD receptions right?

Hines Ward took a few years to develop/emerge into a successful WR following a comfortable STs gig. Meanwhile, what has Wes Welker done since Randy Moss stopped commanding extra attention in New England? And what round was Randy Moss drafted in? Like Shep said, Indy drafted Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and even Anthony Gonzalez in round 1 for even more TD receptions on Superbowl Sunday. Just because Mt Union (Pierre Garcon) works well with Peyton Manning while Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark draw the top cover guys - doesn't mean the Browns are there yet. And what sucks about the start Jeremy Maclin got off to in Philly?

Here's the 2nd round WRs Cleveland has drafted: Lawyer Tillman, Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcutt, Andre Davis, Quincy Morgan, MoMass and Brian Robiskie. Guess what the Browns are still looking for? A #1 WR telling me that 2nd round idea has yet to work out for us there. Everybody consistently telling us how rotten round 2 was in 2009 can't have it both ways all of a sudden.

There's more guys with double digit sacks in 2010, that were UNDRAFTED than drafted higher than 10th overall. In fact, there wasn't 1 guy drafted above slot #10 overall that made the list of leading sackers in 2010. Seeing that dline is much deeper than WR this year, I think there's a compelling supply and demand arguement saying we should get the difference maker at WR for your young QB first. As much as people like to playfully rib Shep about Colt McCoy, why is he getting shit for hoping our front office actually hooks Colt up with a first rate WR?

Not only that, the most consistent bellyache of 2010 was a frustration the Browns never adjusted to 8-9 men in the box. This is why Shep is Jonesin or looking at the color of money for the WR position in round 1. Me too.

[Brown Warrior]

Great stuff, Tom. "Steals" seem to happen when you have a superstar quarterback who's been in the offense for several years. Hence Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Green Bay, New England, and Indy seem to keep "stealing" WRs. It ain't a huge mystery.

That said, Harrison Pathon, Wayne, Clark, and Gonzales were all first rounders. The Packers gave Favre Ferguson and Walker as first rounders while Driver became their great steal. But they still picked Jennings (2nd), Jones (3rd) and Nelson (36th overall). They have a VERY solid offensive foundation that's been running the same system for a really long time now.

Steelers have drafted Burress (8th overall), Randle El (2nd), Holmes (1st round), Sweed (2nd), Wallace (3rd), and Sanders (3rd).

Browns need to surround the youngster McCoy with really good weapons. We absolutely owe him a top WR talent.

Originally Posted by Flugel

Plex Burress was a first round WR as was Santonio Holmes. Didn't BOTH guys catch game winning TD passes in the Superbowl? Why do we erase relevance there? Jerry Rice was a first round WR as was Larry Fitzgerald as was Torry Holt. Those names led to more Superbowl TD receptions right?

Hines Ward took a few years to develop/emerge into a successful WR following a comfortable STs gig. Meanwhile, what has Wes Welker done since Randy Moss stopped commanding extra attention in New England? And what round was Randy Moss drafted in? Like Shep said, Indy drafted Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and even Anthony Gonzalez in round 1 for even more TD receptions on Superbowl Sunday. Just because Mt Union (Pierre Garcon) works well with Peyton Manning while Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark draw the top cover guys - doesn't mean the Browns are there yet. And what sucks about the start Jeremy Maclin got off to in Philly?

Here's the 2nd round WRs Cleveland has drafted: Lawyer Tillman, Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcutt, Andre Davis, Quincy Morgan, MoMass and Robiskie. Guess what the Browns are still looking for? A #1 WR telling me that 2nd round idea has yet to work out for us there. Everybody consistently telling us how rotten round 2 was in 2009 can't have it both ways all of a sudden.

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Plex Burress was a first round WR as was Santonio Holmes. Didn't BOTH guys catch game winning TD passes in the Superbowl? Why do we erase relevance there? Jerry Rice was a first round WR as was Larry Fitzgerald as was Torry Holt. Those names led to more Superbowl TD receptions right?

Hines Ward took a few years to develop/emerge into a successful WR following a comfortable STs gig. Meanwhile, what has Wes Welker done since Randy Moss stopped commanding extra attention in New England? And what round was Randy Moss drafted in? Like Shep said, Indy drafted Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and even Anthony Gonzalez in round 1 for even more TD receptions on Superbowl Sunday. Just because Mt Union (Pierre Garcon) works well with Peyton Manning while Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark draw the top cover guys - doesn't mean the Browns are there yet. And what sucks about the start Jeremy Maclin got off to in Philly?

Here's the 2nd round WRs Cleveland has drafted: Lawyer Tillman, Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcutt, Andre Davis, Quincy Morgan, MoMass and Brian Robiskie. Guess what the Browns are still looking for? A #1 WR telling me that 2nd round idea has yet to work out for us there. Everybody consistently telling us how rotten round 2 was in 2009 can't have it both ways all of a sudden.

There's more guys with double digit sacks in 2010, that were UNDRAFTED than drafted higher than 10th overall. In fact, there wasn't 1 guy drafted above slot #10 overall that made the list of leading sackers in 2010. Seeing that dline is much deeper than WR this year, I think there's a compelling supply and demand arguement saying we should get the difference maker at WR for your young QB first. As much as people like to playfully rib Shep about Colt McCoy, why is he getting shit for hoping our front office actually hooks Colt up with a first rate WR?

Not only that, the most consistent bellyache of 2010 was a frustration the Browns never adjusted to 8-9 men in the box. This is why Shep is Jonesin or looking at the color of money for the WR position in round 1. Me too.

OK TOM thanks for addressing my 8 points as well. both of you Whiff huge on my point...instead want to argue Wr"s that had great defenses (save Indy) behind them....Without Dlineman a 4-3 can't work! Without D-lineman that can rush the passer a 4-3 SUCKS ASS

P.S When Indy won the SB they had a good defense and a healthy Mathis and freeney

[Solon16]

Here try again:

reasons why i hate #6 overall on wr and why I do not think we will draft one. History...
1).Heckert comes from Phily steeped in history in drafting lineman giving McNabb nothing for years. Westbrook a 3rd rounder reggie Brown was closest thing to a weapon for Mcnabb (2nd round)...
2). Free agent class is best we've seen at Wr IN YEARS.
3).Switching to a 4-3 Defense with 1 known starter on the D-line. To make a 4-3 work you need a dominant DT and DE, we have neither and this class @#6 will have one available to us.
4).Rookie Wr's are not impactful 95% of the time.
5). Looking at the offense in St.Louis...they certainly had no wr's worth note or anywhere near top 2 round guys. and performed well last year.
6) Shurmer has already stated O-line and dline are most important units on the field.
7). We most likely not ever find a talent like Fairley,Dareus or Quinn in later rounds.
8). We have nobody worth a damn to get after opponents QB.

[YtownBacker]

Originally Posted by handbanana

I want the wideout, but I wouldn't cry with Dareus or Fairley. Quinn is a whole different story, I wouldn't touch that guy with a ten foot pole. Playing football isn't like riding a bike, missing an entire year is a crazy amount of time for a guy who still has college eligibility left. It would have been one thing if he had been hurt and allowed to stay with the team, but he wasn't. This is mike williams round deuce. Good luck to the franchise who spends a top ten pick on him.

Sam Bradford missed his entire senior year and he got right back on the bike. I'd say QB would be a bit tougher to miss a year then a DE. Sorry, but there are many more examples of guys that missed most of the year and got drafted and had a great rookie season. Sorry, that just doesn't make much sense because there are always injuries and guys missing a full year of ball and moving on the the pros.

If Heckert thinks Quinn is good enough for the #6 pick then I'll bite.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

If Heckert thinks Quinn is good enough for the #6 pick then I'll bite.

He scares me because he is not a "sure thing" @ 6. I really don't want to burst a bubble but Heckert is not taking Quinn. At least I don't think so. He is too much of an unknown. Could he blow up and be a 11 sack guy in 2011? Sure. But so could a couple of guys available to us. I feel that 2011's draft is nowhere near the "Suh and Bradford" show. I think you can throw 10 guys in a pile - whoever they are - and come out with a great pick this year. And I don't think Quinn HAS to be in that pile.

[Brown Warrior]

Originally Posted by Solon16

Here try again:

reasons why i hate #6 overall on wr and why I do not think we will draft one. History...
1).Heckert comes from Phily steeped in history in drafting lineman giving McNabb nothing for years. Westbrook a 3rd rounder reggie Brown was closest thing to a weapon for Mcnabb (2nd round)...

SHEP: Not sure what point is made here. Nobody thinks Philly did right by McNabb at WR and nobody would want to see it as a good plan. They missed on some guys, though... like Mitchell and Brown, among others.

2). Free agent class is best we've seen at Wr IN YEARS.

SHEP: Rice and VJ are already off the market, as is Amendola. I don't see any great young #1 WRs. Realistically, the best one is probably James Jones. I actually like him in spite of the drops. I'm missing the star you're seeing, I guess.

3).Switching to a 4-3 Defense with 1 known starter on the D-line. To make a 4-3 work you need a dominant DT and DE, we have neither and this class @#6 will have one available to us.

SHEP: Good point. We need DL, especially pass rusher types, athletic DEs. I like Rubin, Shaefering, and Mitchell... but we need a couple guys for sure. I think we'll take three front 7 players in the first four picks.

Might be 1, 3, and 4... or could be 2, 3 and 4.

4).Rookie Wr's are not impactful 95% of the time.

SHEP: Just not true. WRs are doing quite well as rookies lately. The 2009 class was nuts, in fact.

5). Looking at the offense in St.Louis...they certainly had no wr's worth note or anywhere near top 2 round guys. and performed well last year.

SHEP: Again, that's a BAD thing, not a good one. Nobody's looking to emulate those Philly WR corps or the Rams WR corps... anymore than the Browns WR corps. The Rams are absolutely in the market for WRs for Bradford like we need WRs for McCoy.

6) Shurmer has already stated O-line and dline are most important units on the field.
7). We most likely not ever find a talent like Fairley,Dareus or Quinn in later rounds.

SHEP: Doesn't mean we'll be playing with great lines and shitty skill players. Nobody does that. Holmgren said we need a "home run hitter" and Shurmur said we see the team "through the eyes of the quarterback." Nobody doesn't think this team lacks a high-end WR.

Just about every coach says some cliche about the trenches or lines or something. Whatever. Lines matter. I'm not Rich, but don't take it to mean the wide bodies are gonna score the touchdowns.

The "elite positions" are quarterback, left tackle, #1 WR, pass rusher, and cover corner. Still. And probably always.

8). We have nobody worth a damn to get after opponents QB.

SHEP: Agree. We have Benard but we need to draft and athletic pass rusher. I like Quinn, Bowers, Smith, Kerrigan, Brooks Reed, Justin Houston, and Jabaal Sheard. I think it'll be round one or two... the other goes WR.

[mohican]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Here's the 2nd round WRs Cleveland has drafted: Lawyer Tillman, Kevin Johnson, Dennis Northcutt, Andre Davis, Quincy Morgan, MoMass and Brian Robiskie. Guess what the Browns are still looking for? A #1 WR telling me that 2nd round idea has yet to work out for us there. Everybody consistently telling us how rotten round 2 was in 2009 can't have it both ways all of a sudden.

.

Tom, If we are going clear back to the 80s Browns, remember that we were successfull with some 2nd rounder from a fairly minor college - Webster Slaughter ring any bells? (Of course, Paul Warfiled scouted him and arm twisted Accorsi into Drafting him.....

[mohican]

If by some chance Patrick Peterson is there when we draft at 6, Heckert would be crazy to pass. I'm sure they could even find some reps for him at WR.

And this has nothing to do with anything other than wild, hair up my ass Butch Davis "Gut Feel", but I can almost imagine Ryan Mallet in a Bengles uniform next season, with Delhomey being the seasoned vet showing him the way....... And no, I'm not drinking right now.

[Solon16]

SHEP: Not sure what point is made here. Nobody thinks Philly did right by McNabb at WR and nobody would want to see it as a good plan. They missed on some guys, though... like Mitchell and Brown, among others.

Jim: The point is heckert has put an emphasis on the O-line and Dline and will forego a wr over a much needed D-lineman...you know... to the point of why I think we will draft a D-lineman? geez ...whiff twice really?


SHEP: Rice and VJ are already off the market, as is Amendola. I don't see any great young #1 WRs. Realistically, the best one is probably James Jones. I actually like him in spite of the drops. I'm missing the star you're seeing, I guess.

point two..."of why I think we draft D-line"...good talent in the FA pool to tide us over. still plenty of good guys

SHEP: Just not true. WRs are doing quite well as rookies lately. The 2009 class was nuts, in fact.

Every decade there is a 5% chance...2009? Name names that were impactful...Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, fitzgerald maybe roddy white...mike williams(cuse)? 1st year impact guys? come on...its a dreadful percentage.

#5 SHEP: Again, that's a BAD thing, not a good one. Nobody's looking to emulate those Philly WR corps or the Rams WR corps... anymore than the Browns WR corps. The Rams are absolutely in the market for WRs for Bradford like we need WRs for McCoy.

Again my point of why we wont draft a wr at #6...Shurmer had success with no names... our dline has NOT a GAPING hole it has Three(3), St louis took Long @#2 ... took Two OL with a #1 and a #2..so history plays a little... speaking of history Desean Jackson a second rounder...other than freddie mitchell in 2000 phily outside of Machlin didn't draft a wr # 1 in a decade.

6 Nobody doesn't think this team lacks a high-end WR. As I have already stated

7 "elite positions" are quarterback, left tackle, #1 WR, pass rusher, and cover corner. Still. And probably always.

I think wr is fifth or 6th. Added at a later date and one of the last pieces.

Why draft a kid at #6 who at best would only touch the ball 10 at most a game?
We are talking about 6 not "ll the guys indy drafts"at #30 etc


P>S. Why or how does any team drafting a wr at any time...have to do with why I think the browns go d-line in 2011? other than History with heckert and shurmer or holmgren? Not one of those guys is associated with HIGH wr first round draft picks.

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by mohican

If by some chance Patrick Peterson is there when we draft at 6, Heckert would be crazy to pass. I'm sure they could even find some reps for him at WR.

And this has nothing to do with anything other than wild, hair up my ass Butch Davis "Gut Feel", but I can almost imagine Ryan Mallet in a Bengles uniform next season, with Delhomey being the seasoned vet showing him the way....... And no, I'm not drinking right now.

I'd instantly put him on Offense. start him both ways from the get go :P

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

SHEP: Agree. We have Benard but we need to draft and athletic pass rusher. I like Quinn, Bowers, Smith, Kerrigan, Brooks Reed, Justin Houston, and Jabaal Sheard. I think it'll be round one or two... the other goes WR.

Like I said before Greg little In my opinion will be a STEAL 6'3 231 and can play WR and RB...versatility is huge...can save an activation spot, is a beast and bigtime playmaker and eveyone who would see him in Brown and Orange will love him! If we land him in any round I'll be thanking G