The Eagles: A Look at 4-3 DL

[Brown Warrior]

Because of all the connections, let's look at the Eagles 4-3 defensive line to get an idea of what kind of personnel we'll need, what we have that fits, etc.

3-TECH DT:

EAGLES: Mike Patterson. He's a five-year vet from USC (31st overall pick) who goes 6'1" and 300, which is pretty prototypical of the penetrating DT in the 4-3. He had 37 tackles and 2 sacks.

BROWNS: I've heard a lot of talk that Brian Shaefering will play a little 3-tech and a little LDE on early downs. He emerged quite a bit last year and coaches say he has an excellent first step. He's 6'2" and 295, so he fits that mold pretty well. He had 31 tackles last year playing part time.

Couple other guys to keep in mind who might make sense there are Derreck Robinson (6'4" and 295, 24 tackle last year) and Robaire Smith (6'5" and 310, 33 years old, 62 tackles in '09).

OVER DT:

EAGLES: The Eagles start a no-name here, Antonio Dixon, a third year player from Miami. He had 30 tackles and 2 sacks. He's 322, a big guy.

BROWNS: Browns win this one easy with Rubin, who goes 330 and had 82 tackles last year, most among interior DL.

LDE:

EAGLES: This is usually a spot for a little bigger DE who isn't as big a pass rusher as the guy on the other side, but the Eagles go REALLY small here with Juqua Parker at 6'2" and 250, smaller than Benard, even. He's 32 years old and had 8 and 6 sacks the past two years.

BROWNS: I've read that 6'6", 285 pound Jayme Mitchell could be an ideal LDE if he plays up to the potential Heckert sees. Heckert was clearly disappointed that Mitchell didn't play more last year, saying he's the best pass rusher of the DL. He's a free agent, but Heckert acts like he's gonna be a Brown.

Shaefering and Robinson could play some base end. So could Smith. Matt Roth, if he returned, would be really good.

RDE:

EAGLES: This is the marquee position in a 4-3, and the Eagles have a really good one, even if he doesn't get the press. Trent Cole is 6'3" and 270 and has 52 sacks the past 5 years, including double figures three times. He's still young at 27. Fluges will want me to point out that he was a 5th round pick from Cincinnati.

BROWNS: Help. The one and only guy who makes some sense here is Marcus Benard. Benard has 11 sacks in his 21 games as a pro, which ain't bad. He was a college DE, like most 3-4 OLBs. He goes 6'2" and 256, so not a ton of room to grow, but he could play at 260 which isn't all that atypical of 4-3 RDEs, really.

SUMMARY: Like Bronx pointed out, it ain't like 4-3 DL all come in the top 10 or even in round one. Mike Patterson is the only high pick here and he was 31st. Parker and Dixon... I think both were undrafted. Our equivalents -- Shaefering, Mitchell, etc. -- are pretty similar in status.

Seems like the Browns could use a serious RDE prospect and some "quicks" in general, probably at under tackle. I expect that Rubin, Smith, Shaefering, Benard, and Mitchell will all be in the rotation. Guys like Robinson and Ivey (330) provide nice depth, too.

[Brown Warrior]

Round three is a really nice place to find a classic three-tech, what Casserly calls the "up field" DT.

Drake Nevis (might be gone)
Jurrell Casey
Terrell McClain

Or Sione Fua in round 4. All four guys perfectly fit the prescription and will go to 4-3 teams where they'll project as starters now or soon. All four are disruptive and quick inside but short and stout enough against the run, especially next to Rubin.

Great value. I'd go DE in 2, three-tech in 3, WSLB in 4. That's where you get the biggest bang for your buck.

[Brown Warrior]

Since I brought it up... who might be that linebacker in round 4?

How about Buckeye Ross Homan? 6'1", 240, 4.66/40, 32 reps, VERY productive career. Nawrocki said he's one of those guys that in a few years we'll ask, "Now WHY was he available at the top of four?" He said you keep wanting to forget the guy... but you put in the tape and he's just a very instinctual linebacker with a nose for the ball... and he can cover, too.

MUCH better prospect than Matthews or Herzlich in my opinion.

This would be my dream first four rounds:

1. Green or Jones
2. Sheard or Reed
3. Nevis, Casey, or McClain
4. Homan

If we could add Sheard, Nevis, and Homan to our defense in one draft? After getting Haden and Ward last year? Get outta here.

[BernietheKid]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Since I brought it up... who might be that linebacker in round 4?

How about Buckeye Ross Homan? 6'1", 240, 4.66/40, 32 reps, VERY productive career. Nawrocki said he's one of those guys that in a few years we'll ask, "Now WHY was he available at the top of four?" He said you keep wanting to forget the guy... but you put in the tape and he's just a very instinctual linebacker with a nose for the ball... and he can cover, too.

MUCH better prospect than Matthews or Herzlich in my opinion.

This would be my dream first four rounds:

1. Green or Jones
2. Sheard or Reed
3. Nevis, Casey, or McClain
4. Homan

If we could add Sheard, Nevis, and Homan to our defense in one draft? After getting Haden and Ward last year? Get outta here.

I could see the Browns going in the same direction with the first three rounds, but in round four I see them going OL or DB instead. If you think Schafering, Mitchell and Robinson can be productive in a 4-3 than there is no reason to think we need to draft a LB.

We have Gocong, Fujita, and DQ who at this point have showed more in the NFL than Schafering, Mitchell and Robinson. I think they will wait next year to address the LB position. Don't forget we have everyones favorite Maivia.

[Aaron Aloysius]

I don't see LB as a huge need but like the options available in the 3rd/4th round range. Kelvin Sheppard would be a good option there: he sheds blocks better than DQJ and has better range than Gocong. Inevitably, the Browns will need to fill one of their LB spots, and he could play at any of 'em.

Also, his college teammate Drake Nevis would be a steal in the early 3rd. Would love to have both of 'em in Cleveland.

[Brown Warrior]

Originally Posted by Aaron Aloysius

I don't see LB as a huge need but like the options available in the 3rd/4th round range. Kelvin Sheppard would be a good option there: he sheds blocks better than DQJ and has better range than Gocong. Inevitably, the Browns will need to fill one of their LB spots, and he could play at any of 'em.

Also, his college teammate Drake Nevis would be a steal in the early 3rd. Would love to have both of 'em in Cleveland.

Just feels like there's more value at certain positions in certain rounds... like DE in 2, 3-tech in 3, versatile linebacker in 4. Nevis seems ideal, yeah.

I could see a DL of Sheard, Rubin, Nevis, and Mitchell being really good, frankly... with Benard coming in on passing downs for Mitchell and Shaefering in for Rubin. Nice depth.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Because of all the connections, let's look at the Eagles 4-3 defensive line to get an idea of what kind of personnel we'll need, what we have that fits, etc.

3-TECH DT:

EAGLES: Mike Patterson. He's a five-year vet from USC (31st overall pick) who goes 6'1" and 300, which is pretty prototypical of the penetrating DT in the 4-3. He had 37 tackles and 2 sacks.

BROWNS: I've heard a lot of talk that Brian Shaefering will play a little 3-tech and a little LDE on early downs. He emerged quite a bit last year and coaches say he has an excellent first step. He's 6'2" and 295, so he fits that mold pretty well. He had 31 tackles last year playing part time.

Couple other guys to keep in mind who might make sense there are Derreck Robinson (6'4" and 295, 24 tackle last year) and Robaire Smith (6'5" and 310, 33 years old, 62 tackles in '09).

OVER DT:

EAGLES: The Eagles start a no-name here, Antonio Dixon, a third year player from Miami. He had 30 tackles and 2 sacks. He's 322, a big guy.

BROWNS: Browns win this one easy with Rubin, who goes 330 and had 82 tackles last year, most among interior DL.

LDE:

EAGLES: This is usually a spot for a little bigger DE who isn't as big a pass rusher as the guy on the other side, but the Eagles go REALLY small here with Juqua Parker at 6'2" and 250, smaller than Benard, even. He's 32 years old and had 8 and 6 sacks the past two years.

BROWNS: I've read that 6'6", 285 pound Jayme Mitchell could be an ideal LDE if he plays up to the potential Heckert sees. Heckert was clearly disappointed that Mitchell didn't play more last year, saying he's the best pass rusher of the DL. He's a free agent, but Heckert acts like he's gonna be a Brown.

Shaefering and Robinson could play some base end. So could Smith. Matt Roth, if he returned, would be really good.

RDE:

EAGLES: This is the marquee position in a 4-3, and the Eagles have a really good one, even if he doesn't get the press. Trent Cole is 6'3" and 270 and has 52 sacks the past 5 years, including double figures three times. He's still young at 27. Fluges will want me to point out that he was a 5th round pick from Cincinnati.

BROWNS: Help. The one and only guy who makes some sense here is Marcus Benard. Benard has 11 sacks in his 21 games as a pro, which ain't bad. He was a college DE, like most 3-4 OLBs. He goes 6'2" and 256, so not a ton of room to grow, but he could play at 260 which isn't all that atypical of 4-3 RDEs, really.

SUMMARY: Like Bronx pointed out, it ain't like 4-3 DL all come in the top 10 or even in round one. Mike Patterson is the only high pick here and he was 31st. Parker and Dixon... I think both were undrafted. Our equivalents -- Shaefering, Mitchell, etc. -- are pretty similar in status.

Seems like the Browns could use a serious RDE prospect and some "quicks" in general, probably at under tackle. I expect that Rubin, Smith, Shaefering, Benard, and Mitchell will all be in the rotation. Guys like Robinson and Ivey (330) provide nice depth, too.

That's a very insightful post Shep. Great job!

What I like most about your post is the thought you're giving to the 4-3; AND the understanding that SOME guys like Schaefering and Benard actually project upgraded performance. It'll be nice to keep Benard coming out of the 3 point without worry of backpedaling to pass zones. Removing thought and indecision from his game, makes him quicker and equips him with better stance exit heights improving leverage on every play. Remember Alo's insightful post about a year ago when he said he like Benard better out of a 3 point stance? This is pretty much the explanation of WHY Alo was able to like him bettr thinking only about sic em. Well, the 4-3 scheme is going to play to all those strengths benard packs. It's WAY too early for people to give up on him IMO.

Robinson seems more like stout penetrator than a girthy 2 gapper. I confess to knowing very little about Mitchell, which might be a good thing. Robaire has played in both schemes and I think he'll be a productive part of the rotation without us needing to overuse him. Poison Ivey looks like he can become a good guy for our rotation as well.

Philly sounds like they go round one alot on the dline if we count Bunkley, Patterson and last year's 13th overall pick Brandon Graham. Check this out just in case we think plucking Trent Cole in round 5 was just a fluke you can't plan for in a dline deep draft. Heckert was a college scout for the Miami Dolphins in 97 when they grand thefted Jason Taylor out of Akron in round 3 in 1997. 2 years later he was promoted to Assistant Director of Pro Personnel/College Scout and in 2000 he was named Director of Pro Personnel. When you can find buried treasures like that working for Jimmy Johnson - you get promoted.

A scary TREND says more WRs and Outside Pass Rushers disappoint in upper round 1. However, Heckert has done something our front office before him could never accomplish. That is land terrific WRs and a DE whenever he deemed it necessary to pluck them out of a draft at best player availabilities. Looks like he did that at other positions like RB LeSean McCoy in round 2 the same offseason Brian Westbrook got a hefty raise and contract extension. As fate would have it, the next season Westbrook got some unplanned injuries and Philly just so happened to have the right guy employed to take over as the new #1 RB. The GOOD news is we have a GM skilled at upgrading WRs and outside pass rushes for his franchise.

The VERY first time many of us (me included) questioned Heckert's best player available philosophy was with the selection of TJ Ward as early as round 2. Hindsight 20/20 from our football fan perspective says he was our leading tackler as a rookie, which equates to "well done Mr Heckert!" Your good GMs worth their craft have foresight 20/20 without resorting to public opinions and mock draft consensus. There wasn't 1 mock draft on the planet that had Ward coming to us that early. I'm excited to see what we'll do in a draft that is very deep at dline.

[BernietheKid]

Browns have plenty of holes to fill on draft day

AP / Tony Dejak

Cleveland defensive tackle Ahtyba Rubin could use some help on the defensive line, the Browns' biggest need come draft day.

By Steve Doerschuk
CantonRep.com staff writer
Posted Apr 15, 2011 @ 09:22 PM

Mike Holmgren headed into his first draft as Browns president laughing off notions of a one-year fix.

“It’s like, I have two thumbs and there are five holes in the dike,” he said last April.

As he approaches his second draft, Holmgren has no new thumbs and perhaps just as many holes to plug.

Here is one ranking of the Browns’ needs heading into the April 28-30 draft, with a quick explanation and some names that might be slapped over the holes.

1. Defensive tackle

Problem: Even if Ahtyba Rubin easily adapts to being a 4-3 tackle after playing the nose in a 3-4, another starting tackle is needed.

Draft solutions: Alabama’s Marcell Dareus or Auburn’s Nick Fairley in Round 1; Baylor’s Phil Taylor, Oregon State’s Stephen Paea and North Carolina’s Marvin Austin later.

2. Defensive end

Problem: Robaire Smith is tougher than Joe Bear. He can handle a switch to a 4-3 and has the skill set to play left end, but can he handle having lost 26 games to injuries in the last three years, at age 33?

Matt Roth might be an OK 4-3 end, but not if he leaves in free agency. Maybe Marcus Benard (7 1/2 sacks in 2010) can be a rush end in a 4-3, but there is no depth for that role.

Draft solutions: North Carolina’s Robert Quinn, Clemson’s DaQuan Bowers, Cal’s Cameron Jordan and Purdue’s Ryan Kerrigan in Round 1 (don’t discount the possibility of trading down for one of these guys); Pitt’s Jabaal Sheard and Iowa’s Chistian Ballard later.

3. Wide receiver

Problem: Brian Robiskie, Mohamed Massaquoi and Joshua Cribbs haven’t exactly been the thrill triplets. Maybe they can bring some sizzle if a true No. 1 wideout is brought in to shake things up.

Draft solutions: Georgia’s A.J. Green and Alabama’s Julio Jones in Round 1; Kentucky’s Randall Cobb, Troy’s Jerrel Jernigan and Maryland’s Torrey Smith later.

4. Right offensive tackle

Problem: Maybe Tony Pashos is the answer. He was one of the strongest tackles in NFL Combine history. That seems like a long time ago, now that he has lost most of the last two seasons to injuries.

Draft solutions: Wisconsin’s Gabe Carimi if there is a trade down in Round 1; TCU’s Marcus Cannon, Miami, Fla.’s Orlando Franklin, Clemson’s Chris Hairston, Pitt’s Jason Pinkston and Central Florida’s Jah Reid later.

5. Linebacker

Problem: The Chris Gocong Show played fairly well in Eric Mangini’s 3-4. Before 2010, he got starts on the strong side and in the middle in Philadelphia’s 4-3. He might be the only relatively sure thing.

Scott Fujita could play any of the three spots in the new scheme, but he will turn 32 on April 28. He played in 15 games in 2007, 14 in 2008, 11 in 2009 and nine in 2010.

D’Qwell Jackson thinks he is cut out for a 4-3, but is he cut out for the NFL? He lost the last 27 games to pectoral injuries.

Draft solutions: Texas A&M’s Von Miller on the off chance he slides to No. 6 in Round 1; North Carolina’s Bruce Carter, Illinois’ Martez Wilson, North Carolina’s Quan Sturdivant, Georgia’s Akeem Dent and Syracuse’s Derrell Smith later.

6. Cornerback

Problem: Who knows whether Eric Wright can dislodge from his psychological quagmire of 2010? Sheldon Brown is an iron man, but at 32, with 144 straight games behind him, he’s an old man who is willing to move to safety. Joe Haden can’t do it by himself.

Draft solutions: Patrick Peterson and Prince Amukamara in Round 1; Texas’ Curtis Brown, Louisville’s Johnny Patrick, Colorado’s Kalil Brown and Utah’s Brandon Burton later.

7. Safety

Problem: Incumbent starter Abe Elam’s is part of that endangered species known as “Mangini guy.” 2010 draft star T.J. Ward needs a long-term running mate.

Draft solutions: After Round 2, Oklahoma’s Quinton Carter, UCLA’s Rahim Moore, Clemson’s DeAndre McDaniel, Cal’s Chris Conte and West Virginia’s Robert Sands.

8. Guard
Left guard Eric Steinbach has been an iron man, but he turned 31 last week and the miles are piling up. Shawn Lauvao’s 2010 did not inspire confidence he is worthy of the right guard job, or merited a Round 3 pick last year. Floyd “Pork Chop” Womack is versatile, but he is going on 33.

Draft solutions: After Round 2, Georgia’s Clint Boling, Lehigh’s Will Rackley, Wisconsin’s John Moffitt, Arkansas’ Ray Dominguez and Michigan’s Stephen Schilling.

9. Quarterback: Do we really KNOW that Holmgren is sold on Colt McCoy, as opposed to saying what a young quarterback needs to hear to nurture confidence? Holmgren has McCoy, Seneca Wallace and a mysterious smile at this point.

Draft solutions: Cam Newton or Blaine Gabbert if there is a No. 6 overall shocker; Washington’s Jake Locker, Nevada’s Colin Kaepernick, Iowa’s Ricky Stanzi, Alabama’s Greg McElroy and TCU’s Andy Dalton later.

Browns have plenty of holes to fill on draft day - Canton, OH - CantonRep.com

[Sez.EJ]

Yup.. Lot's of Holes.. potential fill in's..but not a lot of talent.. We need a great draft and a good F/A.. pickups..

[YtownBacker]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Yup.. Lot's of Holes.. potential fill in's..but not a lot of talent.. We need a great draft and a good F/A.. pickups..

Great reason why we need to be drafting the BPA and not trying to just fill needs. We have so many holes that the BPA will most likely be someone who can fill a need.

[Legacy Fan]

This thread would seem to contradict the claim you made in the PatPete thread that thanks to your extensive viewing of every NFL roster "every" 4-3 gets their RDE in rd 1 and the rest from "anywhere else".

I wanted to counter in that thread, but here will do. I was reluctant to include the Eagles as a 4-3 that "mattered" and since they favor my side of the argument i'll exclude them.

Colts. Giants. Saints. Vikes.
Freeney & W.Smith (Colts & Saints) are the only 1st rounders leaving Osi (mid 2nd) and Jared Allen (mid-late 3rd).


That's 50/50. Same odds for finding QBs WRs RBs etc., that we went round & round last year over Noticing any kind of pattern?

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

Great reason why we need to be drafting the BPA and not trying to just fill needs. We have so many holes that the BPA will most likely be someone who can fill a need.

Yes come visit the Berea Country Club featuring 36 holes on a 53 man roster. If you're over 30 years old with best performances in the rear view mirror, we got your back in our starting lineup. Robaire Smith is 33, Sheldon Brown is 32, Scott Fujita is 32, Eric Steinbach is 31, Jake Delhome is 36 going on 49, Ben Watson is about 30. If the warning label reads, "FRAGILE: one was made in China but played in the ACC" we also got you covered with tenure and we'll never make any attempts to trade you or fill your position because Phil Savage said so...

All kidding aside, I LIKE some of those 30 somethings - but this is the age where wear and tear becomes very unpredictable and a finish line sneaks up on some unexpected players. However, Eric Steinbach was a Pro Bowl alternate we can't do without just yet. He's never received the credit he deserves for helping 2 young players on each side of him adjust quickly and gather some tricks of the trades. Still pulls, traps and gets to the next level as well as anyone in this league. Robaire looked like he was playing some of the best football of his career pre-injury while Fujita was already impressive enough to be considered the QB of our defense. And for the meatballs on top of spaghetti, Ben Watson had one of the best seasons of his career receiving the ball while Reggie Hodges got yanked away from some Texas Holdem Tournament sponsored by Grecian Formula Shampoo for unemployed professional athletes to become one of the leaders pinning opponents inside their 10-20 yard lines.

Now, onto Ytown's best player available message. Pittsburgh Steelers have NEVER stopped drafting great players at positions they have Pro Bowl performers at. Mike Wallace was drafted when Hines Ward frequents Pro Bowls and Santonio Holmes was their biggest playmaker on the roster. In the same token, Joey Porter gets drafted while Greg Lloyd is frequenting Pro Bowls just like Jason Gildon gets drafted while Kevin Green is attending Pro Bowls. Now for the Parmesan Cheese on top of spaghetti sauce, James Harrison wasn't good enough to be drafted says 32 front offices and every mock draft on the planet. Around the same time, Fantasy Football Phil picked 2 defenders ahead of LaMarr Woodley and neither guy was wearing a Browns uniform the last 2 months of last year. We filled NEEDS while Pittsburgh thanked us for the millionth time.

Moral of the story? The ship already sunk so it's not a process of filling holes to save a sinking ship. We're going Noah's Ark level here with "We'll take 2 of this breed, give us those 8 thoroughbreds, these 2 sharp shooters, etc. We'll also take those 5 sick basterds that ate their #2 pencils while reading the directions of the Wonderlic test. Their medical evaluations showed they all digested the lead which makes them perfect to come play LBer and DE right here, right now." We added Hecket to understand the science and physics of it all. Charles Darwin says no to glassboned prospects or any specimens where at least 2 brain cells aren't on speaking terms(with one exception to the rule I just touched on regarding the Wonderlic). He amended that with this is why God created Cincinnati. In a league that rewards survival of the fittest, we do welcome players with instincts and hunting skills necessary for sic em, sock em and sack em. Give us 11 of those guys and make sure they all have ass breath especially when they put Ben Rapen on his back like its prom night...

Any questions? Comments? Concerns?