SENECA WALLACE vs. TROYMONT SMITH

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by DaBrowns41

It doesn't make sense to you because you're Anti-Quinn.

Being an unbiased mind, you have to look at the Wallace acquisition as an upgrade over Anderson/Ratliff as a backup who's done a solid job of stepping in when needed, and a guy who knows the offensive system and philosophy that Holmgren seems to want to instill.

Bringing in Smith would do nothing but make a QB competition, which, if you listened to his press conferences, he's 100% against, especially after the abortion of a TC we had last year when none of our QB's could get the timing down just getting 50% of the reps.

Wallace is a backup. You Anti-Quinn guys think that we're going to be signing guys to start for us, when it's not it.

Here we go with that nonsense. Who's Anti-Quinn? Who's HOPING he fails that wants this team to win? Honestly - that's absurd. I did everything but fund a parade in his honor heading into last season because he represented the hope lost in DA. I WANTED/WANT the guy to succeed but you have to be kidding me if he's done anything to prove he deserves uncontested tenure. Holmgren hasn't been here the last 3 years - WE HAVE. Aside from that, I think he's throwing the scent off that we desperately need to bring someone in to compete via draft or Philly trade or both.

If Brady Quinn has been slam dunking this IT factor you seem to think some of us are missing - what's up with the slide all the way to #22 when MOST teams are drafting best player available over need? Furthermore, the coaches who's careers are banking on the success of his arm (that SEE him everyday in pratice) aren't hoping he sucks - they WANT to see him progressing. I read training camp report after training camp report from alot of our guys that couldn't wait for Quinn to start (just like me) and not 1 of them ever came back and reported - he even looked good in 2009. Quinn had countless OTAs, well documented offseason work for the infamous headstart we all perceived, and double sessions throughout August to show our staff he was the OBVIOUS choice. The red flag was - he never proved to be the obvious choice over a bad QB like DA. I almost he think he won the job by the DA sucks so bad default more than Quinn slam dunked the alley-oop. As fate would have it, we were LUCKY both QBs got the preseason reps they got because both guys needed to be yanked and both got injured. At least there was familiarity with both QBs in the huddle.

Inevitably, the next thing I know, I'm reading Mangini is purposely messing with Quinn, Steinbach should retire, Alex Mack was a terrible pick, Brian Daboll didn't deserve to be hired, our receivers suck, we don't have a running game to support him, etc. Just 1 year after we chased the last staff and OC out of town with all the same gripes. This all would lead to: "Don't you dare hold Quinn acountable in his 3rd season especially at the end of it." Comeon! Exhale and think about what Browns' fans and coaches actually WANTED the only representation of hope to show up looking like he's not up to being what we need him to be?

The ONLY decent performance I saw from Quinn was the Detroit game where MOST of his best throws that day were timing patterns from a 5-7 step drop to an area of the field (flags and post patterns). He wasn't asked to read a progression and be confident he could throw a strike into it. There was one pass he threw that looked like we caught something on film where he looked one way and threw to an uncontested route the other way for a TD in the best game of his career. I'm just trying to be honest, those of you that remember me from TBB know how much I couldn't wait for Quinn. Even those that weren't the biggest Quinn fans were just so sick of DA's act they became Quinn fans because they were coherent and understood the alternative.

Furthermore, I showed some of our best RUSHING days from 2009 and Quinn's passer rating ranged from the 40s to the 30s in games where passing should have been uncontested (with Safeties cheating up in the box). He threw an INT vrs KC right to their DB giving our WR a 15 yard cushion when the Safety was up in the box to have me feelign a sense of uh-oh" on the progress at the end of the year. That being the case, I think we HAVE to challenge him. If you don't do this - you become what we became waiting on Mike Phipps to look the part and we sucked all the way until we FINALLY thpought - MAYBE there's an alternative to this. And then a person like yourself would say: "yeah but he's a 13th round draft pick, that's only 6' tall and he lacks the prototypical arm." Lucky for us SOMEONE and some divine intervention said - "put the relief pitcher in because you owe the 10 other guys in that offense a reason to continue busting their tails." And an unthinkable league MVP was born at the opportunity named Brian Sipe. You don't KNOW the Kurt Warners and Tony Romances of the league exist until they GET to start. I'm not talking 1 start a year either. Anyway, Quinn's rehabbing a 2nd straight season ending injury as you assure us we don't WANT/NEED to bring in talent to compete at the more important position.
- Tom F.

[ramrod]

Originally Posted by Tobalaz

I'm not anti-Quinn nor am I pro-Quinn and I'm sick and tired of getting labeled one way or the other.

Its alright bro.... Dabrowns has a serious crush on Brady so he kind of lets his emotions get in the way.

[DaBrowns41]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Here we go with that nonsense. Who's Anti-Quinn? Who's HOPING he fails that wants this team to win? Honestly - that's absurd. I did everything but fund a parade in his honor heading into last season because he represented the hope lost in DA. I WANTED/WANT the guy to succeed but you have to be kidding me if he's done anything to prove he deserves uncontested tenure. Holmgren hasn't been here the last 3 years - WE HAVE. Aside from that, I think he's throwing the scent off that we desperately need to bring someone in to compete via draft or Philly trade or both.

If Brady Quinn has been slam dunking this IT factor you seem to think some of us are missing - what's up with the slide all the way to #22 when MOST teams are drafting best player available over need? Furthermore, the coaches who's careers are banking on the success of his arm (that SEE him everyday in pratice) aren't hoping he sucks - they WANT to see him progressing. I read training camp report after training camp report from alot of our guys that couldn't wait for Quinn to start (just like me) and not 1 of them ever came back and reported - he even looked good in 2009. Quinn had countless OTAs, well documented offseason work for the infamous headstart we all perceived, and double sessions throughout August to show our staff he was the OBVIOUS choice. The red flag was - he never proved to be the obvious choice over a bad QB like DA. I almost he think he won the job by the DA sucks so bad default more than Quinn slam dunked the alley-oop. As fate would have it, we were LUCKY both QBs got the preseason reps they got because both guys needed to be yanked and both got injured. At least there was familiarity with both QBs in the huddle.

Inevitably, the next thing I know, I'm reading Mangini is purposely messing with Quinn, Steinbach should retire, Alex Mack was a terrible pick, Brian Daboll didn't deserve to be hired, our receivers suck, we don't have a running game to support him, etc. Just 1 year after we chased the last staff and OC out of town with all the same gripes. This all would lead to: "Don't you dare hold Quinn acountable in his 3rd season especially at the end of it." Comeon! Exhale and think about what Browns' fans and coaches actually WANTED the only representation of hope to show up looking like he's not up to being what we need him to be?

The ONLY decent performance I saw from Quinn was the Detroit game where MOST of his best throws that day were timing patterns from a 5-7 step drop to an area of the field (flags and post patterns). He wasn't asked to read a progression and be confident he could throw a strike into it. There was one pass he threw that looked like we caught something on film where he looked one way and threw to an uncontested route the other way for a TD in the best game of his career. I'm just trying to be honest, those of you that remember me from TBB know how much I couldn't wait for Quinn. Even those that weren't the biggest Quinn fans were just so sick of DA's act they became Quinn fans because they were coherent and understood the alternative.

Furthermore, I showed some of our best RUSHING days from 2009 and Quinn's passer rating ranged from the 40s to the 30s in games where passing should have been uncontested (with Safeties cheating up in the box). He threw an INT vrs KC right to their DB giving our WR a 15 yard cushion when the Safety was up in the box to have me feelign a sense of uh-oh" on the progress at the end of the year. That being the case, I think we HAVE to challenge him. If you don't do this - you become what we became waiting on Mike Phipps to look the part and we sucked all the way until we FINALLY thpought - MAYBE there's an alternative to this. And then a person like yourself would say: "yeah but he's a 13th round draft pick, that's only 6' tall and he lacks the prototypical arm." Lucky for us SOMEONE and some divine intervention said - "put the relief pitcher in because you owe the 10 other guys in that offense a reason to continue busting their tails." And an unthinkable league MVP was born at the opportunity named Brian Sipe. You don't KNOW the Kurt Warners and Tony Romances of the league exist until they GET to start. I'm not talking 1 start a year either. Anyway, Quinn's rehabbing a 2nd straight season ending injury as you assure us we don't WANT/NEED to bring in talent to compete at the more important position.
- Tom F.

I never said that people want him to fail. I don't recall even implying it, but there are quite a few Anti-Quinn guys, aka, they refuse to even give him an opportunity or acknowledge that he has had no help from an OC or players.

But it's easy to spot the Anti-Quinn guys, most notably RamRod (not to point you out my friend). Nobody wants our players to fail. But there are a lot of guys that have seen a sample size of Quinn and just think that he's automatically going to fail and that we shouldn't even waste our time.

Also, if you don't think that Quinn's performance against San Diego wasn't even "decent", then I urge you to re-watch the game. But again, you also have to recognize that we have ZERO play makers on offense, at least not until the end of the season with Harrison. But I did a study on QB's drafted in the first since 1998 and their failures having only 1 play maker or less, and all but one, maybe 2 failed. There's a direct correlation between play makers and QB's. Even Peyton Manning had Marshall Faulk and Marvin Harrison, and Edgerrin James following Faulk's departure.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by DaBrowns41

I never said that people want him to fail. I don't recall even implying it, but there are quite a few Anti-Quinn guys, aka, they refuse to even give him an opportunity or acknowledge that he has had no help from an OC or players.

You do understand the OC was a rookie OC right? Next baby step here - you also understand that there were 8 new starters in this offense in December of 09 so this wasn't gonna start out as rock solid chemistry from rock solid continuity right? You weren't really expecting the 72 Dolphins look on openning day were you? Aside from that, when Stallworth did us no favors by getting suspended for an entire year - how did that help our experience at the WR position? Was Braylon helpful? That ain't Daboll's fault.

Did you notice the difference in holding penalties and false starts from 2008 to 2009? How often was our offense starting out with a 1st and 20 or 2nd and 20 in 2009? Happened constantly in 2008. That's improvement.

And not for nothing, but once Daboll finally got the green light to start Harrison the final 4 weeks he didn't suck at playing Chess on game day any more. In fact, our Oline looked like a great run-blocking unit and we were seeing some good progress from our young players.

I think Daboll has alot to learn BUT he showed me some clearcut progress.
- Tom F.

[DaBrowns41]

Originally Posted by Flugel

You do understand the OC was a rookie OC right? Next baby step here - you also understand that there were 8 new starters in this offense in December of 09 so this wasn't gonna start out as rock solid chemistry from rock solid continuity right? You weren't really expecting the 72 Dolphins look on openning day were you? Aside from that, when Stallworth did us no favors by getting suspended for an entire year - how did that help our experience at the WR position? Was Braylon helpful? That ain't Daboll's fault.

Did you notice the difference in holding penalties and false starts from 2008 to 2009? How often was our offense starting out with a 1st and 20 or 2nd and 20 in 2009? Happened constantly in 2008. That's improvement.

And not for nothing, but once Daboll finally got the green light to start Harrison the final 4 weeks he didn't suck at playing Chess on game day any more. In fact, our Oline looked like a great run-blocking unit and we were seeing some good progress from our young players.

I think Daboll has alot to learn BUT he showed me some clearcut progress.
- Tom F.

You do know that a QB that has only 12 starts is also taking baby steps, and Quinn also showed improvement in that he protected the ball well coming back after teh bye.

As for Daboll improving, he got smarter because he started to give the ball to Harrison, who just continued to make plays, but Daboll's play calling in the passing game was piss poor for the entire season.

But you can't make the excuse that Daboll is a rookie/inexperienced OC and that we're taking baby steps without also saying that Quinn is inexperienced, and has had 2 different OC's and has never gotten a TC to actually develop timing with WR's. Not to mention, we changed the personnel up so many times, it's not easy.

It's a double standard. You can't make excuses for one person, and not the other who's in the same situation.

That's all I'm saying.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by DaBrowns41

But you can't make the excuse that Daboll is a rookie/inexperienced OC and that we're taking baby steps without also saying that Quinn is inexperienced, and has had 2 different OC's and has never gotten a TC to actually develop timing with WR's. Not to mention, we changed the personnel up so many times, it's not easy.

It's a double standard. You can't make excuses for one person, and not the other who's in the same situation.

So WHY are you using the double standard only to inform me I cannot? That was WHY I corrected you in the 1st place because you were excusing Quinn's inexperience but blaming all of Quinn's mistakes on a rookie OC. I don't care WHO the OC was that came here inheriting a suspended Donte Stallworth and a disinterested Braylon Edwards - that's 2 hands tied behind the back without even bringing up the QBs. Now, we're looking at inexperience and growing pains from rookie WRs looking at their first glimpses of NFL zone blitzes and complex coverages.

Aside from that, we had 8 new starters out of 11 in our offense as late as December and we were WINNING. And do you know a BIG reason why we were winning 4 in row at the end? We weren't shooting ourselves in the foot with penalties on first and 2nd down like we did the year before. That all of a sudden made 3rd downs doable and we were moving the chains and controlling the ball and time of possession. The oline got better as we kept playing patch and match on the right side with a rookie at Center.

A big part of being a successful OC is LEARNING who you have to work with and HOW to utilize their strengths. When you have 8 new starters after sifting through alot of influx - I think it's positive that we can STILL run the ball when our QBs struggled like hell with accuracy and chemistry with their receivers.

Again, I wanted Quinn to succeed. BUT I have to tell you I was very concerned at the END of last season when Quinn was struggling vrs KC on a day our oline OWNED their front 7. It was so bad that BOTH Safeties were cheating up into the box leaving each corner on their own. As a result, they were giving up HUGE uncontested cushions. And when Quinn threw one of his 2 INTs that day to the KC DB giving our receiver a 15 yard cushion at the left hash - all I could think of is what pass play CAN you call for him? Back in the day, I was Head Coach at the high school level and when certain plays worked I LOVED calling them again. And when our QB wanted to throw a certain route he didn't do that well on during the week in practice - I was reluctant. That's how that works and it's why I think alot of people are very unfair to a rookie OC that inherited a ton of challenges. Quinn had a passer rating in the 30s on a day KC's defense would have given a solid NFL QB dream ratings from uncontested routes.
- Tom F.

[DaBrowns41]

Originally Posted by Flugel

So WHY are you using the double standard only to inform me I cannot? That was WHY I corrected you in the 1st place because you were excusing Quinn's inexperience but blaming all of Quinn's mistakes on a rookie OC. I don't care WHO the OC was that came here inheriting a suspended Donte Stallworth and a disinterested Braylon Edwards - that's 2 hands tied behind the back without even bringing up the QBs. Now, we're looking at inexperience and growing pains from rookie WRs looking at their first glimpses of NFL zone blitzes and complex coverages.

Aside from that, we had 8 new starters out of 11 in our offense as late as December and we were WINNING. And do you know a BIG reason why we were winning 4 in row at the end? We weren't shooting ourselves in the foot with penalties on first and 2nd down like we did the year before. That all of a sudden made 3rd downs doable and we were moving the chains and controlling the ball and time of possession. The oline got better as we kept playing patch and match on the right side with a rookie at Center.

A big part of being a successful OC is LEARNING who you have to work with and HOW to utilize their strengths. When you have 8 new starters after sifting through alot of influx - I think it's positive that we can STILL run the ball when our QBs struggled like hell with accuracy and chemistry with their receivers.

Again, I wanted Quinn to succeed. BUT I have to tell you I was very concerned at the END of last season when Quinn was struggling vrs KC on a day our oline OWNED their front 7. It was so bad that BOTH Safeties were cheating up into the box leaving each corner on their own. As a result, they were giving up HUGE uncontested cushions. And when Quinn threw one of his 2 INTs that day to the KC DB giving our receiver a 15 yard cushion at the left hash - all I could think of is what pass play CAN you call for him? Back in the day, I was Head Coach at the high school level and when certain plays worked I LOVED calling them again. And when our QB wanted to throw a certain route he didn't do that well on during the week in practice - I was reluctant. That's how that works and it's why I think alot of people are very unfair to a rookie OC that inherited a ton of challenges. Quinn had a passer rating in the 30s on a day KC's defense would have given a solid NFL QB dream ratings from uncontested routes.
- Tom F.

I'm confused on what double standard I was using. I've said that Quinn is to blame for many things, as well as the OC.

However, Quinn also made a lot of nice plays and reads that nobody will acknowledge because you watched Mo Mass run a poor/incorrect route, or the play calling would be absolutely terrible. Everybody was to blame, but with Quinn's lack of experience, you have to give him the benefit of a doubt considering what he has to work with.

Even Holmgren was quoted today that a young QB would benefit greatly from talent around him, which is exactly what my article about first round QB's supports.

There's no double standard that I'm using, and if it seems that way, I apologize, but that's not what's intended.

It's all overwith now, and it's probably best we discuss the future of the Browns, instead of discussing something that we'll never know about, which is Quinn succeeding in Cleveland.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by DaBrowns41

It's all overwith now, and it's probably best we discuss the future of the Browns, instead of discussing something that we'll never know about, which is Quinn succeeding in Cleveland.

Agreed. I think we all wish things went better for him/us. They say timing and environment is everything. There's been alot of QBs that either did better on their 2nd/3rd NFL teams or came out of the (CFL/NFL Europe) like:
Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell, Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia, Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Rich Gannon, Jim Plunkett, Ron Jaworski, Joe Theisman.

He had a classy exit interview. I wish him well.
- Tom F.

[DaBrowns41]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Agreed. I think we all wish things went better for him/us. They say timing and environment is everything. There's been alot of QBs that either did better on their 2nd/3rd NFL teams or came out of the (CFL/NFL Europe) like:
Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell, Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Jake Delhomme, Jeff Garcia, Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Rich Gannon, Jim Plunkett, Ron Jaworski, Joe Theisman.

He had a classy exit interview. I wish him well.
- Tom F.

You have a great point. It's been great discussing this with you. I really enjoy your posts.

[Riffer X]

A little blast from the past.

These are really fun

Troy is a success at this point and may turn around San Fran's season and save Singletary's job. Another short midget with no arm LOL.

[Tobalaz]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

A little blast from the past.

These are really fun

Troy is a success at this point and may turn around San Fran's season and save Singletary's job. Another short midget with no arm LOL.

Not going to happen.
You can't make it in this league without California qb with cute ass dimples taken in the top 10 of the draft. Anything else is a freak anomaly. Drew Breeses, Tony Romos and Tom Bradys just don't exist and no teams find guys like that anymore.
It's a proven fact due to it being clearly stated by self titled qb gurus who opted to piss everyone off to the point they're no longer here and anyone that disagrees obviously doesn't know a damn about football and hates kittens.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

A little blast from the past.

These are really fun

Troy is a success at this point and may turn around San Fran's season and save Singletary's job. Another short midget with no arm LOL.

Want to hear the rocket science of it all? Drink Beer might not be able to type on Sundays after games or walk a straight line like Johnny's Cash back in the day or even refrain from slurring words. However, they were smart enough to purchase Troy Smith for less than a penny on game day so they still had enough cake to buy a bunch of Guinness they didn't really need.

- Tom F.