HECKERT GIVES UP TOO MUCH

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Solon16

HECKERTS TREND to overvalue guys and give up too much in back to back years...is a trend I DONT LIKE.... THE TREND

Relax, I know what you meant.

Why are your player evaluations better than Tom's every round?

Because for 2 years you watched a lot of youtube.com?

No offense bro, you know players more than I do every draft.

( I am just saying he knows a lot more than you, ....all of the time.....everytime....from now on....starting at 10yrs old.....he is Obi Wan, and your ....R2D2 ....... . :-)

[Solon16]

i think thats bullshit...ive been doing it longer than he has bro and been damn successful...my daddy din't get me into the "club"

Talent evaluator i think not...

more access to film of more players, ability to interview the kids in person, bankroll to investigate these kids in depth and a daddy's pass to the "club" absolutely...

I'm 43 and the draft has been my passion since before it was televised...before mel kiper was ever on the scene...nobody is perfect but my track record speaks for itself... to say i get my evaluations from youtube is ludicris...I just started using youtube as a tool 3 years ago.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Solon16

i think thats bullshit...ive been doing it longer than he has bro and been damn successful...my daddy din't get me into the "club"

See I didn't know all that -- can you get me the T-shirt?

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Solon16

I'm 43 and the draft has been my passion since before it was televised

You goofball. Tom Heckert had Don Shula hire him at 26. His Dad worked for the NFL for 30+ years, and that is how Tom Heckert began in Miami.

You began where -- Internet Explorer? No team has called you on that work you've put in since --- it was televised?

[damajuki]

Originally Posted by Solon16

I went and listed back three years of starters in the third round AFTER #70...

and whoooosh right over your head and out the window as to the VALUE of third round!!!

You want to say that only the #70 pick is relevant to the arguement... then i have to say Whooosh right past you again....the argument has to do with Value in the Third round at 70 and beyond....

we gave up a potential probowl player with the third pick at #70 as proof by the fellows drafted in the last three years that I listed...

let alone starters...

let alone contributors...

we potentially gave up two guys...a definite starter at 28 and a probable starter more likely a contributor at 70...2 guys for 1 guy...not good math! Unless taylor becomes a star... more to the point...heckert did it two years in a row...gave up too much. I hate that trend...but he took my fav guy this year and made up for it...I loved first 2 picks last year haden and ward...then after finding a 100 bill i was robbed when he flushed all the hard earned picks to take hardesty.


I'll leave it at that..."and a tune from CDB

"come on back if you want to try again....i'll take that bet and you are gonna regret...cause i'm the best that's ever been" lol WHOOSH you probably never heard of charlie daniels ha ha ha...you probable have a justin bieber poster in your room...lol

Hey, whooshy, where's this list? You've posted your anti-3rd round pick "waste" all over the board. I'm curious what kinds of player you are so fired up over.

Regardless, I haven't missed your point, I'm challenging it. I understand 3rd rounders have value; I'm questioning YOUR valuation of them, however.

I'm saying, (quotes to help you understand clearly), "Why do you value a 3rd round body over a potentially dominate DT in Taylor?"

In essence, you are fired up over the lack of a potential player instead of the actual player we got. You're ignoring the fact Taylor was a unique commodity in this draft in favor of criticizing the move on the basis of the phantom player we gave up.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

It doesn't matter what other teams did with 70, nor does it matter what you think was available at 27. It doesn't and you know it.

It matters:
a) What the scuttlebutt was amongst GM's.
b) Where most teams felt PT would land.
c) If PT was ranked at 15-19 on their board, and they felt 27 was too low? Pull the trigger.
d) Plenty of value at 70 - doesn't mean Heckert wasted anything.
e) If a player would have been available at 70 that Heckert can't miss on? He waits.
f) You're a guy on a website telling me I should listen to you more than Heckert?
e) Sorry, he has been doing this since he worked with his father in Miami with Shula.
f) You're telling me your board was better than Heckert's because you read all the "draftniks" and watched a bunch of "YouTube?"

LOL. "He said YouTube."

Solon would have drafted Robert Quinn at #2 overall. Therefore, he misses Phil Savage doing the first round "Knee Jerk" for Kam Wimbley when we could have drafted LaMarr Woodley at least twice before gift wrapping him to the Steelers. That's like giving your biggest enemy the keys to a brand New Truck so he can run you over with it every time he sees you for the next 10 years.

How about Savage's other first round dance that he broke out in 2008? The new and improved "Moon Walk." That dance walked us right out of round one and day one for overrated veterans out of scheme and the decision to be the only franchise willing to see Brady Quinn as a first round QB. Even worse, he had us scheduled for only 4 draft picks in 2009 while everyone else in the AFC North was set to select anywhere from 9 to 13 players.

Solon is usually a way better asset for our board than his over-reaction to Heckert and his Texas Instrument without a + sign. We ADDED picks for this and the next draft.

Just think what it's like to be the guy willing to take on the burden/challenge of turning around 11 bad drafts in 12 years. We're not even out of round 1 in the draft and we have people wanting Heckert to be fired. Understanding that - Tim Couch, Courtney Brown, William Green, Kellen Winslow all landed on injured reserve once or multiple times - MAYBE Heckert was brilliant to say 5 picks helps this franchise more than a player with 2 screws in his foot today?

Just remember the lesson we all learned when we short sighted Heckert for choosing TJ Ward last year. Today, he is our leading tackler; because that's what thorough research can accomplish. If one got fussy about trading up for Hardesty than I would expect them to LIKE a trade-down to add 2 picks to this draft and 2 to the next one (inclusive of the 3rd round loss). In essence, we added 4 draft picks for a franchise with more holes than WR.

[damajuki]

Good points, Tom, as usual.

Internet human moment: Solon, I totally respect your skills, experience and position on this board. No sarcasm at all. Please know I'm more just enjoying hashing it out with you. Hope you feel the same, in all seriousness.

Dunderhead.

[Alo]

I bet Robert Quinn thrives in Spags' D, but I concede that he probably was too risky for #6 (limited experience, medical concerns).

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

You goofball. Tom Heckert had Don Shula hire him at 26. His Dad worked for the NFL for 30+ years, and that is how Tom Heckert began in Miami.

You began where -- Internet Explorer? No team has called you on that work you've put in since --- it was televised?

The nfl aired the draft in the 80's...before the internet. Do you even read? Gil brandt to me is the greatest evaluator I've seen...Mayock who no one ever heard of until 2002/03 when NFLnetwork first aired and they went and found him a couple years later. Whatever dude... I was following players and picks and rounds before anyone even called it a mock draft. i had to follow it in the newspapers a day after the fact. heckert's daddy got him a job...he has a 1000% more tools at his disposal...but as an Evaluator? I put myself up there with anyone. I hear it every yeay...same ignorant comment...Oh no one has called you to work for them, you'd be working there if you were that good...look Its a"club" and you need a secret handshake to get in or know someone already in.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Alo

I bet Robert Quinn thrives in Spags' D, but I concede that he probably was too risky for #6 (limited experience, medical concerns).

Very good points! Alo, he's probably gonna be a pick St Louis is very happy about. Sometimes I think we all lose sight of the reality that getting picked in the first or scecond round of the NFL draft still a very enormous compliment that gets the player a salary exceeding $1 million $ to entertain.

When I critique him with the negativity, it's done as a 6th overall consideration. If he was more reasonably projected in the vicinity of where he was drafted - I'm thinking I would have had more reasons to be positive about the projection. We've been burned so many times with overrating 1st round guys I probably got a little over-critical with Quinn. To tell you the truth, the ONLY prospects I hope fail are the ones that go to Baltimore and Pittsburgh

When you shared the uplifting story of Quinn reversing a potential Boobie Miles ending - it made me hope this kid has a really good football career ahead. The Browns fan in me couldn't cozy up to us rolling the dice on him. If he had another season of audition like Julio Jones had, I would have been able to see what he polished/sharpened to say I'm seeing intriguing upside that excitres me. He's really not a GOOD tackler on film unless it's a blindside clamp down; and he has to improve the stoutness vrs the run. While his hustle is commendable, it often has him running by ballcarriers that see him coming in open fields. If you can't square up or stay in control to tackle somebody -chances are you won't tackle the ballcarrier. A bad habit of grabbing wasn't corrected by a former NFL Defensive Coach like Butch so it's not a given that his weaknesses are easy to correct at the more competetive level ahead. My guess is Quinn will be able to sack the QB; but my question is will this be at the expense of defending the run?

As Sez likes to remind us, our biggest weakness has always been defending the run so maybe a team already strong in that dept like St Louis represents a completely better fit for him.

Speaking of St Louis, I 'll tell you a guy I pegged completely wrong thinking he was getting overrated. Your buddy Flugel got laryngitis underrating Laurinitis in 1 more version of Blowhard 101. In fact, when I see him playing for Spags - he seems to be much more significant to the front end of plays than I found him to be at Ohio State inspite of the tackle impressive tackle volume.

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Solon would have drafted Robert Quinn at #2 overall. Therefore, he misses Phil Savage doing the first round "Knee Jerk" for Kam Wimbley when we could have drafted LaMarr Woodley at least twice before gift wrapping him to the Steelers. That's like giving your biggest enemy the keys to a brand New Truck so he can run you over with it every time he sees you for the next 10 years.

How about Savage's other first round dance that he broke out in 2008? The new and improved "Moon Walk." That dance walked us right out of round one and day one for overrated veterans out of scheme and the decision to be the only franchise willing to see Brady Quinn as a first round QB. Even worse, he had us scheduled for only 4 draft picks in 2009 while everyone else in the AFC North was set to select anywhere from 9 to 13 players.

Solon is usually a way better asset for our board than his over-reaction to Heckert and his Texas Instrument without a + sign. We ADDED picks for this and the next draft.

Just think what it's like to be the guy willing to take on the burden/challenge of turning around 11 bad drafts in 12 years. We're not even out of round 1 in the draft and we have people wanting Heckert to be fired. Understanding that - Tim Couch, Courtney Brown, William Green, Kellen Winslow all landed on injured reserve once or multiple times - MAYBE Heckert was brilliant to say 5 picks helps this franchise more than a player with 2 screws in his foot today?

Just remember the lesson we all learned when we short sighted Heckert for choosing TJ Ward last year. Today, he is our leading tackler; because that's what thorough research can accomplish. If one got fussy about trading up for Hardesty than I would expect them to LIKE a trade-down to add 2 picks to this draft and 2 to the next one (inclusive of the 3rd round loss). In essence, we added 4 draft picks for a franchise with more holes than WR.

I guess you don't remember me being the only one happy about ward last year...I think heckert is a good evaluator...I think he has a TREND of Locking in on guys/tunnel vision style...and giving up too much for said guy...Hardesty we gave up something in the ball park of 4 picks to grab...not to say hardesty/ or taylor won't be great players...I disagree with the Trend.

you guys don't fine...

@ DAMAJUKI...read first post...in this thread

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Solon16

I guess you don't remember me being the only one happy about ward last year...I think heckert is a good evaluator...I think he has a TREND of Locking in on guys/tunnel vision style...and giving up too much for said guy...Hardesty we gave up something in the ball park of 4 picks to grab...not to say hardesty/ or taylor won't be great players...I disagree with the Trend.

you guys don't fine...

@ DAMAJUKI...read first post...in this thread

I think it's a matter of how you want to look at things. It was 3 picks when one was just merely a swap of our 71st pick for Philly's 59th pick plus we gave them pick 134 and pick 146. Keep in mind, we just recently added Hillis and an extra draft pick for Brady Quinn before that trade was made. Understanding Hillis just earned Madden coverboy status, I think the bigger picture turned out okay.