JABAAL SHEARD

[Enigmatic Evil]

I've made my opinions pretty clear on Mangini. I think in an already established system, aka: Not the Jets, nor the Browns, he would probably be a competent, maybe even a good head coach. He's proven in NY and in Cleveland that he can't build a team. His footprint on this team is that he cleaned house, he got rid of the trash and he implemented some discipline on this squad, and some pride. Pride that we did not see under guys like Crennel.

We can pick apart what he did because hindsight is 20/20 but the fact of the matter is he was just doing what he thought was best. If I had to choose between BQ and DA, I probably would have flip flopped the fuck out too because they both sucked and the likeliness of either of those two QB's having a good game was VERY inconsistent. If Injuries hadn't run us to the end of the depth chart in a lot of key positions, I think we probably would have had a better year last year but that's merely speculative on my behalf. Things went the way they did and now we have a new Coach, and a new system. I think it was needed, I don't think I could've tolerated another season of the Mangini/Daboll offense... ditto for Rob Ryan's defense. He got credit but the fact is, he was aggressive at times that it wasn't necessary and it cost the team for a lot of big plays that cost us games. Case and point, the game vs the Jets as one example. The fumble leading up to the aforementioned big play not withstanding.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Flugel

FWIW, there became a HUGE reason people got excited Holmgren was brought in and a competant guy like Tom Heckert with a reputation for good drafting immediately followed. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts in this equation when we take an honest look at the ship at the bottom of the sea when we did it backward hiring a HC before a GM/VP. Why do we suppose the same Eric Mangini with a GM above him can win 10 games as a rookie HC and then win 9 games another season? The truth is Alex Mack, MoMass, Colt McCoy, TJ Ward, Kaluka Maiava, and Marcus Benard all started games as rookies here. If Robiskie was ready - he would have played too. It's probably better we didn't start 2 rookie WRs in tandem with a QB in his first year of starting. Did 1st round draft pick Derrick Alexander start here as a rookie WR? No, but Big Money started and man let me tell you what a difference that uninspired empty chest cavity made.

What everyone WANTS to forget is that draft list Solon shared about what Phil Savage LEFT us from the draft. Not only that, Mangini's first draft here was scheduled for 4 picks just 1 year after we landed 1 keeper from the 2008 draft so I don't get WHY so many people thought we should have just kept the FOUR draft picks, enjoyed all the overpaid vet dlinemen out of scheme and selected Sanchez BEFORE all our widespread Brady Quinn fans got to witness his first chances to start. We can't have it both ways on this. I see some huge Brady Quinn acting as if they always wanted Sanchez and our situation was apples to apples with NY coming off 9 wins. It wasn't! Let me reiterate while the rest our division was drafting between 8-13 guys a year in 08 & 09, Savage left us an emaciated 5 picks in 08 (with no day 1 or picks before round 4) and 4 picks set for 09. Can we give this ANY credit for the bare cupboards?

For the meatballs on top of spaghetti, guys like Shaun Rogers and D'Qwell Jackson went down to injury while Donte Stallworth and Braylon Edwards celebrated Tequila Sunrises to PROVE what shabby investments they were. The right side of our oline has never stopped its influx of injury all the way back to Ryan Tucker and Seth Mckinney so a team drafting shitty for 11 years was also confronted with injury volumes. Who controls that God above or HC? Before I would care if Mangini stayed or sprayed, I would need to see a positive trend I could rally around. And then it happened in the 2nd part of 09, Rubin played his BEST football as a 2nd year player now starter and David Bowens moved inside to impact the front end of plays with 6 weeks to go. And what happened in those last 6 weeks? We won our last 4 games and competed in all 6 so was this progress or regression with the troops inherited from 08 where all of our final 10 games ended ended as early as openning kickoff. Our defense finished 09 in the top 8 in sack volume while our offense finished inside the top 8 rushing the ball when EVERYONE on the planet was playing run against us because we couldn't throw a forward pass. Mangini didn't bring Dumb Ass or Brady Quinn here; but he knew enough that you don't trade a 1st round QB until he shows you he's not a first round QB. He also added unemployed sparks like Matt Roth and Reggie Hodges. And then it was Mangini that WANTED the Peyton Hillis from Denver for Quinn that everyone had so much fun celebrating plus a 4th round pick. I GET that he didn't work out in the wins column and I understand everyone's frustration with that. However, to say he's the reason the cupboards are bare after seeing that list of all our drafts since 1999 is ridiculous esecially when Savage was trading away our future draft picks for veterans with best work in rear view mirrors. We're misplacing all this frustration where we always have while leapfrogging the place that caused it all in the front office. Let me tell ya, that's why your buddy Flugel is very excited about our front office today. I'm rooting for Shurmur to have things way better than others had it before him in our head coaching position. Can we PLEASE give him a chance that we're never willing to give others?

There's on old saying that never dies in this world "timing is everything." I'm actually at a point where I'm excited about the changes that have been made to go in a new direction starting with replacign a HOLLOW front office with Holmgren and Heckert. When I lived in Clearwater for 4 years, the media and fans got sick of the DEFENSIVE minded Dungy in spite of getting that franchise from the depths of suckville to post season play. Once you make the playoffs or win at least 9 games twice, expectations raise just as they did in NY for Mangini. Here's where their paths differed. Dungy went to Indy where there is an elite front office directed by Bill Polian. Mangini went to Randy Lerner where it was determined you don't have to interview more than 1 person and why do you need a front office above the HC when you gotta play Pittsburgh and Baltimore twice a season? Do I even need to ask who was setup to fail and who was setup to succeed? Let's just understand one front office knew the difference between Brady Quinn and Peyton Manning as a first round QB.

Mangini's biggest mistake IMO was thinking he could be a GM and Head Coach at the same time in the situation following a house cleaning with only 4 draft picks scheduled just 1 season after a draft volume of 1 keeper. After witnessing Butch Davis swing from his ass and missing bigtime, our OWNERSHIP should have never repeated that blunder - sorry! I know it's popular to think Mangini started all the crud because mounting a bandwagon is the thing to do. In the end, who would predict more than 5 wins from a franchise deciding who sucks more between Quinn and Dumb Ass + a 2008 draft volume of 1 + 4 draft picks scheduled + all kinds of overpaid FAs like Donte Stallworth, Shaun Smith, Shaun Rogers and an out scheme signee Corey Williams.

Since I've been alive, the STRONGEST organizations win in the front office. It's HOW you take a guy like Marv Levy who was laughed out of the NFL and into the CFL for breaking out the Delaware Wing T offense and make him the HC of 4 consecutive AFC Championships. It's HOW you take a DB coach(Tomlin), not to be confused with DC and compete in 2 Superbowls within 3 years. It's how you take a Strength Coach (John Harbaugh) turned STs Coach and hire him as HC to frequent playoffs and appear in 1 AFC Championship Game. It's how a no-name HC like Caldwell makes a Superbowl before everyone figures out he's not Cindy Louhoo from Whoville. I just think it's WAY easier to coach when that's ALL you have to do. It's REALLY that simple.

I think we should move ahead and get excited about what a competant front office is doing for our new coaching staff. How FREAKIN refreshing was it to see a draft volume grow, needs addressed and realize we have 2 first round picks in 2012 plus another 4th round selection? That's WAY better trading away draft volumes, signing veterans out of scheme and leaving us worried about the lesser of 2 evils at QB before we even consider WHO is coaching this team. I'm FREAKIN excited and I don't feel like sayin FREAKIN if ya know what I meansies.

Simpler said, the BIGGEST way we improved our franchise was going from front office incompetance to the tagteam of Holmgren and Heckert. I think this combination will make the names of Head Coaches worth remembering here again. The best part is we shouldn't need a miracle worker in lieu of a head coach. Just visit Solon's thread of all our drafts since 1999 to get a better understanding of what needed to change most.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil

I've made my opinions pretty clear on Mangini. I think in an already established system, aka: Not the Jets, nor the Browns, he would probably be a competent, maybe even a good head coach. He's proven in NY and in Cleveland that he can't build a team. His footprint on this team is that he cleaned house, he got rid of the trash and he implemented some discipline on this squad, and some pride. Pride that we did not see under guys like Crennel.
.

Good points made; BUT in NY there was a GM that worked in tandem with EM to draft Nick Mangold, D'Brickashaw Ferguson, Dustn Keller, David Harris and Darrelle Revis. That's a PRETTY respectable foundation gathered, Could they have done such a thing starting with 4 draft picks just 1 year after a draft volume of 5(no day one and 1 survivor)?

It was my understanding EM interview to fill the HC vacancy because the Lerner family had already learned what happens when you hire a HC to be a GM and HC (a la Butch Davis) or did they? It was a delay so Randy added Holmgren AFTER Mangini attempted to problem solve 4 picks scheduled. The PROBLEM created there is Holmgren was put in the bad situation of giving a guy he wasn't philosophically compatible with an extra year. We've already covered all that previosuly BUT isn't it funny that when Mangini got to draft with Heckert - it was much more impressive to us? That being the case, doesn't it shed light on WHY he did better in NY with a GM employed?

As I said, I HOPE our fanbase will give Shurmur a better chance then they gave all others before him. In saying that, I think this is the first front office that gives a HC here a chance to succeed. Even though this took a little for me to come around, I also think it's best for all parties that EM goes somewhere else to do what BB had to do and find the same football philosophical compatibility. I REALLY think he wanted to succeed here. I just wish we hired the GM first so alot of this could have been avoided and we would have been 1 year further along in the restoration efforts.

[Brown Warrior]

I actually wanted Sanchez and said so, for what it's worth, some of it out of Trojan fandom. I was all into Brady Quinn, but I said I liked Sanchez a little better and took gobs of shit for it. I also felt like the brass didn't really have any confidence in either incumbent and that never seems to work.

From a personnel standpoint, we got Savaged.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

I actually wanted Sanchez and said so, for what it's worth, some of it out of Trojan fandom. I was all into Brady Quinn, but I said I liked Sanchez a little better and took gobs of shit for it. I also felt like the brass didn't really have any confidence in either incumbent and that never seems to work.

From a personnel standpoint, we got Savaged.

It was a BAD situation to be inheriting - in terms of Quinn never starting a season off as the starter to be already drafting a QB as high as we were supposed to be drafting in upper round one for Sanchez. VERY important to understand NY was 10-6 and 9-7 in 2 of the last 3 years prior to picking Mark Sanchez.

They weren't whiffing from the GM seat like we had continued to do before firing Savage was necessary. I STILL think it would have been nice to have had Holmgren and Heckert hired prior to hiring Mangini. I can't blame Mangini for that any more thna I can blame him for being a bad GM when he was hired to be a Head Coach and only introduced as a Head Coach.

The hand EM was dealt following the sum of so many bad drafts since 1999 was the reality of 1 survivor from 2008 that had no day one and an overall volume of 5 and only 4 picks scheduled for 2009. Just when it can't get any worse, we had a bunch of out of scheme dlinemen overpaid and Donte Stallworth doing what he did to power jam our pasing game in FUBAR. Braylon was getting into bar fights bvecause he had penis envy toward Lebron James; and nobody on this planet can assure me this was projectign focused football player on game day. Hence all the inexcusable drops. And Winslow's Evel Kneival act gave us an exchange value of 1 complete season in the first 3 years of contract. To this date, he still can't practice all week and don't ask the TE to block or set the edge meaning it gets too predictable for comfort when he's in.

All this took a toll and our choice was to bring over guys like Bowens, Trusnik, Schaefering, Coleman, Elam, Stuckey, Mosely, and Barton or stick with guys out of scheme like the disinterested/oft-injured Rogers, Shaun Smith and Corey Williams. Bowens stepped up as our biggest playmaker after Jackson got injured. If we TRULEY remembered getting blown out the final 10 weeks of 2008, then goign undefeated the last month of 09 was epic progress.

It's important to understand we got to 5-7 in 2010, before we lost alot of guys to injury in a 2 week span (Fujita, Yates, McCoy, and Cribbs w/ 4 dislocated toes to take his mind off the concussion)... Pretty significant guys to lose considering their contributions to beating NE, NO before we had to lose to NY in OT without half of them. It got worse in the absence of all of them.

In the end, and this took me a while, I get that Holmgren wants an offensive compatibility from his HC if his success is going to be measured by his decision of Head Coaches. Unfortunately doing it backward with Lerner hiring the HC before the front office meant we dealyed good drafting by 1 more year. Nobody is complaining about Mangini teaming up with Heckert for the results we got from the 2010 draft.

As Riff says - we may even look back on picks like Mack, MoMass and Robiskie as a nice draft after all from 2009 especially if Marcus Benard being added as an undrafted rookie gets seen like a late round draft pick. Adding Evan Moore after the Pack cut him didn't suck either. I'm also intrigued to see how Trusnik looks in a 4-3. He might translate well. It might turn out to be a poretty decent draft after all if we remember Savage only left us 4 draft picks.

I'm very happy for Shurmur in that he'll be the first Head Coach to walk into the momentum of back to back good draft volumes. I just hope people give him the chance they never gave others considering how well our rivals have continued to draft since 1999. Hell, even Cincy looks like they've been drafting better in recent years so this division isn't easy.

[Riffer X]

For what it is worth, I trained a new gal at work the other day who just graduated from Pitt. She noticed my Browns mug and brought up Jabaal Sheard. She said she knew him very well and that he is an extremely good guy.

I thought that was nice to hear and thought I would share.

[Sez.EJ]

Quinn screwed himself from day 1 in Cleveland by holding out. He listened to his agent instead of his heart. He could have come in and got meaningful reps from day 1 and probably started immediately or at least by game 4 his rookie year. If he had not held out his history here could have been completely different. Who knows he may even still be here, but then maybe not.. Point is..... he had a hand in his own demise.. Past is past ..time to move on.

I wholeheartedly agree...the biggest change that will move us forward is the front office of Holmgen and Heckert.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Quinn screwed himself from day 1 in Cleveland by holding out. He listened to his agent instead of his heart. He could have come in and got meaningful reps from day 1 and probably started immediately or at least by game 4 his rookie year. If he had not held out his history here could have been completely different. Who knows he may even still be here, but then maybe not.. Point is..... he had a hand in his own demise.. Past is past ..time to move on.

I wholeheartedly agree...the biggest change that will move us forward is the front office of Holmgen and Heckert.

Take a bow for that gem Sez! Like a hammer to wood, you nailed it.

If Quinn's first passion was grabbing the bull by the horns - then he should have told his agent that being drafted in round 1 won't mean a thing if he doesn't put himself in the best position to start at the 1 position we've longed for upgrade at. If we didn't move UP for him, it seemed like the free-fall was heading for round 2 so the lat agent/player tandem that needed to nitpick over a thousands of dollars was the one that cost themselves potentially millions of $ ahead.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

For what it is worth, I trained a new gal at work the other day who just graduated from Pitt. She noticed my Browns mug and brought up Jabaal Sheard. She said she knew him very well and that he is an extremely good guy.

I thought that was nice to hear and thought I would share.

That's always REALLY good to hear Riff so thanks for sharing it! I think we're getting men, not to be confused with divas, that our fanbase will find much easier to re-connect with.

REAL blue collar kind of work ethic guys that KNOW they need to work hard to achive positive results vrs the the countless overpriced Diva FAs and high picks that commonly quit in 2008 knowing they could cash their paychecks regardless.

Even our TOP draft picks we will be counting on most like Alex Mack, Joe Haden, TJ Ward, and Phil Taylor ALL come from positions that require top work ethics and commitments for success to follow. If you counted the double teams Phil Taylor went 60 minutes with at Baylor - I almost got exhausted FOR the guy watching those highlights.

When I heard Heckert speaking about Sheard, he seemed to get most excited about a relentless intensity brought to every play as if it were the last one of the career. My golden years of witnessing this franchise came from a collection of blue collar types like Brian Sipe, Greg Pruitt, Dave Logan, Tom DeLeone, Reggie Rucker, Calvin Hill in his late 30s, Ernest Byner (round 10 = not drafted today), Kevin Mack, Tony Jones, Cody's Risen, Clay Matthews, Bob Golic, Big Daddy Hairston, Doug Freakin Dieken, Webster Slaughter and Reggie's Lannghornes, Brian's Brennans, Herman Fontenot and counless others.. We also had some Superstars that preferred work ethic to the DIVA bullshit Braylon Scissorhands Edwards put us through such as Ozzie Newsome, Bernie Kosar, Hanford Dixon, and others.

Guys like Me-O don't make NFL franchises better. They never have. The BEST thing I saw was Philly making it to the Superbowl without that jerk participating in 1 single playoff game. His 1st game back was the Superbowl, which marked their ONLY post season loss of that year. The very next year, he was holding that franchise hostage to the DIVA act as if it wasn't inevitable. Heckert looks like he remembers that as well as he needs to for ALL positions he wants to upgrade. Work ethic and TEAM guys seem to be important to consideration. Those are the types capable of connecting with the fanbase, which would mark a very refreshing return to some fun history.

[Brown Warrior]

Yeah, I totally agree about Quinn's holdout. But remember all the conspiracy theories, that Trader Phil didn't WANT him in on time because he might win the job? Something bizarre like that?

Anyway, I really think things could have been pretty drastically different, especially with the weapons we had. He might have found his groove and never looked back. Fortunes have turned on smaller things.