PHIL TAYLOR

[Brown Warrior]

I can't weigh those two, Y... they just aren't apples and apples. I guess RT is to LT as #2 WR is to #1 WR. It doesn't mean that only #1 WR and LT matter... just that the other two shouldn't be as expensive, in dollars or draft assets.

I pretty much agree that we could use some more help at RT. Pashos could well be a good starter this year but he's suspect in a couple of ways. Even healthy, he's a better run blocker than pass blocker. I think our sacks will go down anyway with a quick-strike offense, but we weren't really all that bad last year, basically right at the middle, or average.

So yeah... Clabo would be a very nice addition. I think we need a free safety pretty bad. I know we need at least depth at linebacker and probably a DE. I'm not sure where WR fits in the pecking order, but we sure could use someone who can not only play right now and know what he's doing, but be an upgrade from everything that was on the team last year.

I would expect we'll see signings all over the field -- teams facing talent gaps can't be shy -- like RT, DE, LB, S, and WR. We could get into the specifics of which gets more dollars, but that's going to be driven by availability.

Given the kind of lineups we'll be using, I don't really set my hair on fire if you say WR is the one we can't deal with this year. Or last year. Well, shit... when I say it, it does sound like a horrible idea.

[Brown Warrior]

Also, the notion that you build teams from the line out... I don't think that makes any sense. The prime positions around which you build a team are QB, (big space), LT, pass rusher, and #1 corner. Not tackle, left guard, center, nose tackle, etc.

I get the lunchpail mentality and all that, and the dislike for "glory boys." But the best teams generally have the best quarterbacks, for starters, so it really IS about that particular glory boy.

A point of agreement: In a 4-3, the DL is where it all begins. You build a defense from the front back with the pass rush helping the pass coverage way more than the other way around. I swear, I've read and heard that 80 times in the past four months and finally you guys came around!

Wait... is it just QBs and WRs you guys don't like? In a passing league? Is that like being a basketball fan who only loves the Ben Wallaces of the league?

[Sez.EJ]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Also, the notion that you build teams from the line out... I don't think that makes any sense. The prime positions around which you build a team are QB, (big space), LT, pass rusher, and #1 corner. Not tackle, left guard, center, nose tackle, etc.

I get the lunchpail mentality and all that, and the dislike for "glory boys." But the best teams generally have the best quarterbacks, for starters, so it really IS about that particular glory boy.

We tried it your way with Timmy Couch and Kevin Johnson, and Daylon McCutchon. With no core built on the OL and DL from the inside out it ..and well.. umm ummm ... well , here we are..

[Brown Warrior]

Sez, I'm all for great lines on both sides of the ball. I quote Jimmy Johnson all the time, who said you build a team starting with quarterback and defensive line... and he knew a thing or two about football and every level. And hairspray.

While no player on the field affects all the others like quarterback, the guy has to have a decent amount of time to throw the ball and you have to be able to run at last occasionally. I'm not Rich. I think there are a lot of very good lines built without a lot of high picks (the Packers have always been great at it), but I'm not at all against using a high pick on a left tackle or a pass rusher.

Most of the other positions can be found with a little less currency, meaning dollars or draft assets.

But let's be real: Couch wasn't as good as we wanted him to be and KJ was a #2 at best on most teams. Daylon McCutcheon? What does he have to do with the price of potatoes?

If this were a team with a lot of great skill players but nothing on the lines, we'd have that conversation, and I'd be right there. But we just drafted DL with our first two picks after drafting TWO first round OLs just recently, in addition to stealing Rubin and signing Steinbach.

We're a team that HAS made commitments to the line... and not so much to offensive skill positions. The result, at least thus far, has been that we're the worst passing and scoring team in the NFL over the past three years and a lot of losses.

That's just what it is, man. We're a team that's much better on the lines than at skill positions because that's what we've been drafting and signing for the most part.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

Yes, he can be good but what will he grow up to be............Braylon Edwards?

Maybe an offensive Pacman Jones.

Dez's biological father was 43 when his 15 year old biological mother gave birth to him if we take a second to UNDERSTAND what he comes from. While not his fault, his dad and mother have been in and out of prison. Those are pretty freakin unreliable role models for teaching right and wrong.

As we saw with William Green, where BOTH of his parents died in the streets due to IV drug use and AIDS. Green showed tremendous promise in the 2nd half of his rookie year (averaging 100 yards rushing per game over the last 6 weeks): and had two 100 yard games early the next year before he got blind sided by his GENES. Chemical dependency tackled him from behind and drove him out of bounds to stay.

BOTH stories are sad as Hell. It's pretty much a miracle that BOTH guys made it to the first round of the NFL draft and landed a first round salary. That at least shows some type of ability to overcome and persevere even if only temporary. HOWEVER, how LONG can you trust it holding up? Dez got bored as Hell at Oklahoma State as his coaches commented on his absences from team meetings and showing up late for games. It would be REALLY hard to want to count on that. Just because he's good at football when he's in the mood to prove he can meet the challenge doesn't promise he won't be bored and ready for bad decisions once that's behind him. How many FULL seasons did the college giving him a full ride get out of him? There's a reason schools teach history folks.

If football doesn't work out he can model his own line of blue jeans and call it Seymore Crack.

[Sez.EJ]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Sez, I'm all for great lines on both sides of the ball. I quote Jimmy Johnson all the time, who said you build a team starting with quarterback and defensive line... and he knew a thing or two about football and every level. And hairspray.

While no player on the field affects all the others like quarterback, the guy has to have a decent amount of time to throw the ball and you have to be able to run at last occasionally. I'm not Rich. I think there are a lot of very good lines built without a lot of high picks (the Packers have always been great at it), but I'm not at all against using a high pick on a left tackle or a pass rusher.

Most of the other positions can be found with a little less currency, meaning dollars or draft assets.

But let's be real: Couch wasn't as good as we wanted him to be and KJ was a #2 at best on most teams. Daylon McCutcheon? What does he have to do with the price of potatoes?

If this were a team with a lot of great skill players but nothing on the lines, we'd have that conversation, and I'd be right there. But we just drafted DL with our first two picks after drafting TWO first round OLs just recently, in addition to stealing Rubin and signing Steinbach.

We're a team that HAS made commitments to the line... and not so much to offensive skill positions. The result, at least thus far, has been that we're the worst passing and scoring team in the NFL over the past three years and a lot of losses.

That's just what it is, man. We're a team that's much better on the lines than at skill positions because that's what we've been drafting and signing for the most part.

Which is good, we are trying to follow the inside out plan.. No one agrees with you more on the WR situation than me.. I think you have to agree with that. But the right side of our line??? mmmmm

While we THINK we may have some players on the RT side of the line.. I recall 3 years ago 2008 we thought we had the makings of a great OL and we had FIVE..count'em.. FIVE QB's killed that year. That's what happens when you go in with guys you HOPE can play. The QB suffers.. and when the QB suffers.. the whole offense..especially the passing game.. suffers.. We are the poster child for this.

2008 we had a veteran OL.. We thought it was pretty good..umm before the season.. Joe Thomas, Steinbach, Frahley, Hadnot and Shaffer.. Then we found out what happens when you have no depth..and you overrated the guys you went into the season with.. That line is nearly identical to what we have now... A good left side and what we THINK looks "ok" on the right side. We need to nail it down.. I reallize it may not happen this year.. but we will nail it down in the draft if we don't bring in someone we can count on. I guarentee if you go back to the preseason posts on TBB before 2008 You will probably find a thread saying how good our OL was going to be that year.

To me Pashos is a clone for Kevin Shaffer.. A guy who played good enough for a while before he came to Clevelend.. Then, as soon as we got him..his talent fell off the planet and he was hurt.. Then we ended up with a QB carousel.

**** We have had 16 different QB's starter for us since 1999... but that does not account for a QB getting hurt, replaced, healing up, then coming in and getting hurt again, and replaced again.. So I am guessing we have had over 20 staters if you count the multiple injuries..

Have we ever had a QB NOT get hurt???? since 1999 That's a scary question just to think of.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Which is good, we are trying to follow the inside out plan.. No one agrees with you more on the WR situation than me.. I think you have to agree with that. But the right side of our line??? mmmmm

While we THINK we may have some players on the RT side of the line.. I recall 3 years ago 2008 we thought we had the makings of a great OL and we had FIVE..count'em.. FIVE QB's killed that year. That's what happens when you go in with guys you HOPE can play. The QB suffers.. and when the QB suffers.. the whole offense..especially the passing game.. suffers.. We are the poster child for this.

2008 we had a veteran OL.. We thought it was pretty good..umm before the season.. Joe Thomas, Steinbach, Frahley, Hadnot and Shaffer.. Then we found out what happens when you have no depth..and you overrated the guys you went into the season with.. That line is nearly identical to what we have now... A good left side and what we THINK looks "ok" on the right side. We need to nail it down.. I reallize it may not happen this year.. but we will nail it down in the draft if we don't bring in someone we can count on. I guarentee if you go back to the preseason posts on TBB before 2008 You will probably find a thread saying how good our OL was going to be that year.

To me Pashos is a clone for Kevin Shaffer.. A guy who played good enough for a while before he came to Clevelend.. Then, as soon as we got him..his talent fell off the planet and he was hurt.. Then we ended up with a QB carousel.

**** We have had 16 different QB's starter for us since 1999... but that does not account for a QB getting hurt, replaced, healing up, then coming in and getting hurt again, and replaced again.. So I am guessing we have had over 20 staters if you count the multiple injuries..

Have we ever had a QB NOT get hurt???? since 1999 That's a scary question just to think of.

DA and I call that the Santa Claus plan. More specifically, you don't want to injure Santa Claus when he's about to put a ton of gifts under your Christmas tree. That may sound outrageous but when we wanted to see anything BUT DA - there he was healthy as can be. When it pertained to QBs capable of more efficiency, they went down like dominos so I see what you're saying Sez.

The right side has been a mess for a while. The only consistency there has been injury and influx. People don't realize that St Clair was supposed to be a 3rd string RT behind Pashos and Womack. When Pashos got injured and the right guards were injured, Womack played RG and St Clair played RT. That wasn't supposed to be the dream team. It seems like we've always resorted to saying "this will have to do for now."

I've got a good feeling about Pinkston. It would be nice if Pashos could remain healthy so we don't have to race him into the RT spot prematurely. In the process, we could let Lauvao and Pinkston battle it out for the RG spot. After that NE game, I'm hoping we have Billy Yates under contract. Our right side hasn't looked that good in ages. I guess if we got really desperate, Kevin Shaffer impressed nobody at Chicago. In one of his few starts, Cutler got sacked 10 times and received a concussion which put Shaffer right back on the bench. He'd be a RG today if we were really in a crunch. When you think about it, doesn't ALL this really make us appreciate Thomas, Steinbach and Mack all the more?

Remember when we had Shaffer and Andruzzi protecting the blind side? They were about as useful as Saddam Huessein's 60 year old security guards when American soldiers came knocking. Savage threw something like 70 million $ in contract at those 2 matadors. Even worse, he was excited about it. I remember an opener vrs New Orleans where Frye hit Braylon Edwards for an apparent 80 yard TD reception to start the season off with. Unfortunately, the blind side I just spoke of had a yellow flag at their feet for holding. Instead of kicking off a season 7-0 on the first play from scrimmage - we were looking at 1st and 20 from our own 10 yard line. At the same time, many of us were treated to reading a signature stating: "olinemen are a dime a dozen."

[Bronx Cheer]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

I ask, where do you think adding a WR really is on Heckert's list?

Yews it's based on who is available and who is willing to sign with the Browns because it is a two way street. They are called FAs for a reason. So, the hell with Sims-Walker and all his baggage and Braylon Edwards hands. There is a reason why Jacksonville isn't banging on his door with a new contract. Hell with trying to fnd someone to compete with Robo or MoMass or Little or Cribbs or Mitchell or Haggerty. Go get a OT and a DE and a DT and a DB. Maybe grab a couple of each and then we can look at a new WR. I hear Dante Stallworth might be available if we have a bunch of money to throw around.

We'll see.................................maybe I need to look at it from a new prospective.

I agree with most of this. I don't see us going after any kind of impact WR because there aren't any available who are worth the coin and who are going to come to Cleveland. I have been talking positively about Sims-Walker in another thread, but not because I want Heckert to sign him. Only because if he were to sign anybody at WR Sims-Walker to me seems about the best bet out of a sorry bunch. FAs at glamor positions go to glamor teams, cash being equal (which it normally is). They give priority toward weather, low/no income taxes, contender status, and city "cool" factor (size, club scene, etc.). Let's face it, Cleveland loses on all four of these factors, while cities like Miami has them all. So, we have to be content with signing good players without the sparkle (Fujita), or looking to cash in on positions that are overrepresented on the market (this is how we got Roye).

[Brown Warrior]

So you know we're mostly on the same page: I think we need to continue to work on "soft" areas of the team. The right side of the line and the WR corps are definitely soft compared to, say, the left side of the line, RB, TE, and QB.

It's not like we've done or have nothing on the right side of the line. The last two years, we've drafted Lauvao and Pinkston. We have Pashos. We may or may not have Yates and Womack. But I agree: If a player is there who can improve that area, you go get him.

But I'd say the same at WR. We're very young and alarmingly "unaccomplished" there, quite obviously. If there's a veteran for the having (Lance Moore) and the price isn't too crazy? You jump. It's exactly what the Rams are doing and they're deeper and better at WR than we are.

[Sez.EJ]

Too many holes, not enough quality to bring in.. on both sides of the ball. Let's hope this draft is good. We also need get some growth and development, and having some of the backupt step up and become starters (competition). We then need another great draft next year.. Then I think this team will finally be on solid ground.

It's going to take this years draft ending up being good, and another good draft next year before we can even begin to compete in our division.. I know it's the same old song..

But it IS different this time,in that we have a front office now that has a plan, and more importantly.. a CLUE..

[Brown Warrior]

The good news is that plenty of incomplete and imperfect teams win... usually because they can pass the ball well and aren't so horrible at other things that it doesn't matter. I've thought for months now that the Browns are right on the edge of developing a diverse WCO that's tough to defend. The only thing that gets in the way of that is if we can't go downfield for shit and the defenses can stack up. it's the last puzzle piece... and if we can find it, things could be very, very interesting.

The ability to become a power running team when the moment demands it? That's a pretty cool thing. You don't win that way over the course of a season or even most games, but it's withering to a defense if you can pull that out of your tool belt.