Colt McCoy 2011

[Brown Warrior]

He's almost certainly the single most important factor for team success next year... easy to say because that's true of ANY quarterback on virtually ANY team.

But this is a little more intense, with the Browns coming off three years of the combined lowest QBR in the entire NFL. That the team won even 4.66 games per year is surprising. Mark some of it up to that unusual winning streak at the end of 2009.

There are rare exceptions (right now, the Jets), but if you aren't a top 10-12 QBR team, you probably aren't winning much of anything on a consistent basis in the NFL. You can get away with a lot... but you can't get away with an inability to pass at a high level. Holmgren said that himself when he took the job.

We have a new coach, which lately has gone hand in hand with a new quarterback. But because third round pick McCoy showed some flashes last year, especially in that brutal three-game stretch against good teams, he kinda IS the "new quarterback": It's his job without competition and he's stepping into a WCO system that at least seems tailor-made for him.

Things that make me hopeful, in addition to those flashes: He's an incredibly focused and diligent kid, and leading the offseason workouts during the strike was exactly what he needed to do. Also, I think his weapons, while not terribly fast or superstar-ey, might actually be good fits for the WCO: Robiskie, Cribbs, and Little aren't roadrunners, but they all seem like the right guys in the right system with good size, strength, and YAC potential.

TEs and RBs have to be receivers, too, and Watson, Moore, Cameron, Hillis, Hardesty, and Owen Marecic all fit that description.

My fears: The shoulder, injured even after the season, when I can barely remember that it was Dareus who did it to him. Now that I know it was bothering him, along with the ankle, it explains why he didn't look as sharp when he returned to the lineup and the ball wasn't popping off his hand as much.

McCoy's a kid who needs his arm at its peak operating level, like a Pennington or Garcia. I thought he looked to have a little more arm than both in the first stretch of starts... but not in the last stretch.

I think Grossi's right: It's probably a one-year audition for McCoy, partially because he's only a third rounder. With that low investment, if he doesn't play well it'll almost certainly mean the Browns won't win... and they'll be in position for Luck, Barkley, or another top passer. It'd be very, very tough for Holmgren, Heckert, and Shurmur to pass up on the opportunity.

Thoughts?

[Riffer X]

Not a lot of time right now to address your whole post, which was pretty good, but I do have an issue with one statement you made.

My fears: The shoulder, injured even after the season, when I can barely remember that it was Dareus who did it to him. Now that I know it was bothering him, along with the ankle, it explains why he didn't look as sharp when he returned to the lineup and the ball wasn't popping off his hand as much.

If you recall, I said the kid had a good enough arm to succeed in the NFL, mostly because I watched him throughout his college career and also watched more than just his YouTubes against Nebraska. I also read what some had to say after his workout and what others had said in observations of him at clinics etc.

My main reason for wanting to make sure we nailed this kid in the draft (even trading up into the first---which was laughed at) was all the intangibles he brings to the position, including being a winner and great leader. Basically though, the kid just knows how to play football.

Now you and a few others were adamant about the arm thing, and you were basing it off what you thought you knew from his college career, but more accurately, what a lot of the niks had to say who you were reading. These niks were all pretty much towing the company line to be safe in their opinions, because, after all, the kid was short too.

You never mentioned that his arm was light becasue of the injury in the Championship Game, you implied that he took a Flinstones vitamin (Bam Bam maybe?) and that he woke up the Sunday morning before the first Pitt game with the ball really "popping" off his hand. You were basically saying his arm was way better with just a few months in the NFL compared to what it had been in college, when you wanted to draft Clausen instead.

Now you are saying that his arm was hurt and all of a sudden got better--then worse---I think, which means he must have had a good enough arm in college when you said he didn't--I think. I'm a little confused here and not trying to be a richard, but you gotta make your mind up here on this arm thing. I told you all along the kid could throw the ball with enough strength and extreme accuracy based off what he did in college, with lots of upside to get stronger.

You can't have it both ways, either he had a god enough arm before his injury with Dareus (which happened after his whole college career was done) or he took a vitamin and got strong right before Pitt. Do you see what I mean here? I'm a little confused.

[YtownBacker]

Most analysts said he had plenty of arm, including Mayock who most here respect. Holmgren said over and over that he had an NFL arm. He also said the kid had more arm then Montana.

He doesn't have a gun but the arm thing was always BS. The kid had mechanic problems throwing off his back foot and never had a extremely weak arm.

This isn't Pennington. If he doesn't have enough arm then Brees doesn't either

[Brown Warrior]

My take on McCoy, and how it's evolved? Same as it ever was: I didn't like his arm in college. Like everyone, I couldn't NOT watch him because he was on every Saturday. I thought it was on the light side. I think that was the prevailing opinion or he doesn't get out of the top 10, let alone falling to 84. It surely wasn't for lack of exposure, number of starts, etc.

It's not height; he's about 1/2" shorter than Ponder. The scouting opinion was that his arm was light.

When I watched him in preseason? I felt about the same. I felt like he had an arm issue. Then when he came out for his first start a few months later... I thought he looked very different. I thought his release was more compact and his footwork was better. He was stepping into throws. The arm seemed live to me, the ball popping off. The spirals were consistently tight, while I'd noticed the opposite in college.

I'm not the one to explain why because I'm not privy, but I commented after the very first start, the Pittsburgh game. I can only report what my eyes saw. When he came back after the ankle? Not so much. My son and I both said he didn't look right. I'm QB-centric, as you know, and I'll even rewind and watch a throw a second time. I actually corrected something our high school's QB (Jack's teammate) was doing in passing league before our senior year, the way he was holding and releasing the ball just a little differently.

I could see that McCoy had some issues, maybe the shoulder wearing down (as he said, arm fatigue) and the ankle. The "pop" wasn't there.

Just what I saw, Riff. My opinion. I'm much more optimistic about the kid than when we drafted him, no doubt. I DO change my opinion as the evidence warrants, regardless of what Y says, and I'm perfectly willing to say so.

My theory? McCoy got good coaching, tweaked his mechanics, and got bigger and stronger, and it all looked like it paid off. But then the shoulder fatigue set in... and then he hurt the ankle.

[Brown Warrior]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

Most analysts said he had plenty of arm, including Mayock who most here respect. Holmgren said over and over that he had an NFL arm. He also said the kid had more arm then Montana.

He doesn't have a gun but the arm thing was always BS. The kid had mechanic problems throwing off his back foot and never had a extremely weak arm.

This isn't Pennington. If he doesn't have enough arm then Brees doesn't either

I just don't agree, based on college. I think the arm was an issue and I read agreement on that about 1,000 times. I'm not saying it was a noodle, but I thought Alo's Jeff Garcia comparison was fair.

Garcia doesn't have a better arm than many NFL starters. It would be bottom five-ish.

If I'd never watched McCoy before his first start, I'd say he had an average NFL arm, or somewhere after the top 15 but certainly sufficient. And crazy accurate, which is way more important, like you said.

But I'm more interested in what we're expecting from in 2011... and what he needs to do to succeed. I'm pretty optimistic, honestly.

[OzDawg]

I think what he needs to do to be successful this season is for one, know he's gonna play AND be the starter.(think thats a pretty solid right now) He also needs to take reps with the starters.(he didn't last year) He also needs an offense designed more to his qualifications and attributes.( Think they're headed that way too) A shore up at RT should help him out a bit too but since that wasn't really addressed in the draft and we have no idea what FA will be like this year, we have to rely on guys coming back from injuries and also development.

[hammertime]

One thing that will keep McCoy around is if he is durable.

We need to see at least one full season from him. If he can't make it through season 2 then i think we can start the Andrew Luck conversation. Reason being, if it's not Colt behind center this season we most definately will be drafting top five next year.

I don't like the idea of starting all over at QB, but Luck is a "franchise" quarterback.(so they say)

If we sniff .500 this season be ready for next years draft to put us over .500 mark and a playoff contender.

[Brown Warrior]

The thing that makes me happiest about 2011 is McCoy in the WCO offense with that braintrust around him. All his best qualities -- smarts, study habits, mobility, accuracy, ability to throw accurately on the move or without optimal stance -- are exactly what that system calls for.

And like most of the NFL, in fact, it doesn't require a cannon.

An area he can improve: Alo has pointed out that McCoy will throw "jumpballs" downfield because he isn't really driving the ball. The ability to tork and rip at full effort while maintaining spiral and accuracy is rare. While Brees did improve his mechanics, footwork, and arm speed, he was also figuring out how to throw his very best fastball without losing the strike zone, something Favre does to an amazing level.

Brees needs to, and so does McCoy. He needs to be able to really rip it on occasion, when it's called for. Never saw Brees do that in college or during his rookie year... now he REALLY jacks that shoulder and whips it on those 30 yard slants. I assume it's a tweak in grip, release point, etc., that allows you to do that.

When McCoy can really tear into it with max RPMs, which he might be ready for next year, he'll have the complete set. Because everything else about his game and the way he goes about his business is really, really promising.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

You can't have it both ways, either he had a god enough arm before his injury with Dareus (which happened after his whole college career was done) or he took a vitamin and got strong right before Pitt. Do you see what I mean here? I'm a little confused.

Hats off to you Riff for not buying into the theory that some girl scout stealthed her way into a Texas Longhorns uniform for 4 years to become the all time winninngest QB in Division IA College Football history.

It's not very realistic that McCoy went to bed one October night with the arm strength of Miley Cyrus and woke up with a well respected NFL arm. That's 1 thing that is impossible. There was a small segment in here making the Suh induced throws off the back foot in the Big 12 Conference Championship the rule. The equivalent to that would have been saying Favre's flimsy final throw (INT) off the back in the NFC Conference Championship Game was the rule instead of a rare overwhelming challenge that wasn't doable. That would just come from someone that hasn't seen very much of either guy OR they think freckles is stronger criteria. The one difference is McCoy seemed to have the hocus pocus under that circmstance that Favre lacked. And not for nothing, I became a believer when McCoy lit up Ohio State for 419 yards and the comeback Bowl win 1 year earlier. I'd seen every throw I needed to and there became a point where 1 mistake would have given OSU the W. Brian Sipe anyone?

The good news is that guys that ran NFL Offenses and Head Coached NFL teams like Gruden, Marriucci and Holmgren all stated pre-draft this kid's arm is plenty sufficient for the NFL. Aside from that, draft experts (Kiper and McShay) that get paid extremely well for their draft opinions thought McCoy was the grand theft of the draft.

There was a preseason game where McCoy hit something like 78-80% of his throws and all I read from people that already made up their mind at the first OTA practice was - that was horrible. You're not gonna change that kind of mind. That said, if someone thinks the entire career can be summed up at the very first practice would CUT guys like Warner, Brees and Roethlisberger because someone like Kyle Boller can throw a football 65 yards from 1 knee. Just out of curiosity, how far did Kyle ever throw if from his back when he held onto the ball too long?

We all have different taste in players. I just never understood the Hallmark for Jimmy Clausen at #6 overall when all that program did under his direction was lose alot more than it did under Quinn. I think BAD teams drafting QBs early at least have to see evidence that a QB can elevate the performances of his teammates around him. Can't be a passenger and I'm not talking about junktime stats when the outcome has already been decided where yards are exchange for clock. Colt McCoy didn't have the traditionally ELITE oline or running game at Texas any more than he had WRs projecting to be #1 or 2 at the next level so you have to LIKE how much better he made everyone on game day.

The biggest critiques that bother me are those that worry about durability from a guy that started all but 1 game in 4 years. If the guy was a pussy, he would have bailed out as soon as it got convenient when he was being Suhed at the Big 12 Conference Championship. Instead, he had to lead his team from behind to beat Nebraska and did.

I think the best thing to do is admit we are wrong sometimes. I think my buddy Shep should save himself alot of trouble and just own that he got Clausen, McCoy and Haden wrong and move on. IHey, swung from my ass and missed on Tim Couch, William Green and D'Qwell Jackson; but the good news is it never threatened my day job. They were all disappointments for my level of expectations regardless of fair or not. We ALWAYS have to remember we're just fans going Blowhard 101 on all this so it's okay to be wrong since it's coming from fans borrowing some degree of wishful thinking in all this.

[Legacy Fan]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Like everyone, I couldn't NOT watch him because he was on every Saturday. I thought it was on the light side.

Southern California must be a truly amazing place. What with it's 5 ABC's, CBS's and ESPN's broadcasting every collegiate game from every conference every Saturday.

[YtownBacker]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Hats off to you Riff for not buying into the theory that some girl scout stealthed her way into a Texas Longhorns uniform for 4 years to become the all time winninngest QB in Division IA College Football history.

It's not very realistic that McCoy went to bed one October night with the arm strength of Miley Cyrus and woke up with a well respected NFL arm. That's 1 thing that is impossible. There was a small segment in here making the Suh induced throws off the back foot in the Big 12 Conference Championship the rule. The equivalent to that would have been saying Favre's flimsy final throw (INT) off the back in the NFC Conference Championship Game was the rule instead of a rare overwhelming challenge that wasn't doable. That would just come from someone that hasn't seen very much of either guy OR they think freckles is stronger criteria. The one difference is McCoy seemed to have the hocus pocus under that circmstance that Favre lacked. And not for nothing, I became a believer when McCoy lit up Ohio State for 419 yards and the comeback Bowl win 1 year earlier. I'd seen every throw I needed to and there became a point where 1 mistake would have given OSU the W. Brian Sipe anyone?

The good news is that guys that ran NFL Offenses and Head Coached NFL teams like Gruden, Marriucci and Holmgren all stated pre-draft this kid's arm is plenty sufficient for the NFL. Aside from that, draft experts (Kiper and McShay) that get paid extremely well for their draft opinions thought McCoy was the grand theft of the draft.

There was a preseason game where McCoy hit something like 78-80% of his throws and all I read from people that already made up their mind at the first OTA practice was - that was horrible. You're not gonna change that kind of mind. That said, if someone thinks the entire career can be summed up at the very first practice would CUT guys like Warner, Brees and Roethlisberger because someone like Kyle Boller can throw a football 65 yards from 1 knee. Just out of curiosity, how far did Kyle ever throw if from his back when he held onto the ball too long?

We all have different taste in players. I just never understood the Hallmark for Jimmy Clausen at #6 overall when all that program did under his direction was lose alot more than it did under Quinn. I think BAD teams drafting QBs early at least have to see evidence that a QB can elevate the performances of his teammates around him. Can't be a passenger and I'm not talking about junktime stats when the outcome has already been decided where yards are exchange for clock. Colt McCoy didn't have the traditionally ELITE oline or running game at Texas any more than he had WRs projecting to be #1 or 2 at the next level so you have to LIKE how much better he made everyone on game day.

The biggest critiques that bother me are those that worry about durability from a guy that started all but 1 game in 4 years. If the guy was a pussy, he would have bailed out as soon as it got convenient when he was being Suhed at the Big 12 Conference Championship. Instead, he had to lead his team from behind to beat Nebraska and did.

I think the best thing to do is admit we are wrong sometimes. I think my buddy Shep should save himself alot of trouble and just own that he got Clausen, McCoy and Haden wrong and move on. IHey, swung from my ass and missed on Tim Couch, William Green and D'Qwell Jackson; but the good news is it never threatened my day job. They were all disappointments for my level of expectations regardless of fair or not. We ALWAYS have to remember we're just fans going Blowhard 101 on all this so it's okay to be wrong since it's coming from fans borrowing some degree of wishful thinking in all this.

What he said........................+1

[Brown Warrior]

Sorry, guys... just telling you what I see. I could've been a hatah and not raved about McCoy after that first start, like that Quinn hater on the old board... but I'm simply to honorable of a citizen for those shenanigans (!).

This gave me a chill this morning, though, from Steve D.:

"Draw your own conclusions from the list of the quarterbacks taken in the 20 third rounds from 1990-2009: Kevin O’Connell, Trent Edwards, Charlie Whitehurst, Brodie Croyle, Charlie Frye, Andrew Walter, David Greene, Matt Schaub, Dave Ragone, Chris Simms, Josh McCown, Giovanni Carmazzi, Chris Redman, Brock Huard, Jonathan Quinn, Brian Griese, Bobby Hoying, Stoney Case, Eric Zeier, Billy Joe Hobart, Tommy Hodson, Peter Tom Willis, Neil O’Donnell."