Wide Receivers 2011

[Sez.EJ]

Shep: You mention "if we are running the Rams offense" a few times over the past months.. In a sense we will be..but you have to ask yourself..How much of Shurmers offense were they really running with a rookie QB??.. 50%? 60 % by the end of the year?.. The didn't have the most stellar recieving corps in the world either. Last year was about ball controll, limiting turnovers, and trying to stay in games on a team with inferior talent.. So I don't think Shurmer's offense can really be judged by that.. Offenses open up more and more as the QB and offense get familiar and comfortable..then you also have to tailor it some to the talents and abilities of you players..

I don't think that we never saw Shurmers offense running at 100% capacity as it was hamstrung by a rookie qb, time in the system, and by the mediocre talents on the offense (WR's)..not to mention their OL is nothing to write home about..
These things take time to learn... It sometimes takes a couple years before a young QB really has the full grasp of these 6 inch thick playbooks. The get spoon fed a little at a time..

So let's not sell Shurmers offense short until we get to see it in place and MASTERED.. I am not saying this as a slam on you.. It's only that I have noticed in several posts since even before Shurmers hiring you discussed the deficiencies of the Rams/Shurmers offense.. I'm just saying ..I'm not so sure we have really seen it. I think we all have expectations... we have to understand there will be a learning curve and understand.. it's going to start out pretty basic. Walk before you can run so-to- speak

[Legacy Fan]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Here's another thought about the ability (or inclination) to throw deep and what it can do for an offense... or how NOT doing it can damage an offense.

Shurmur took some heat from Rams fans for being too conservative. Some of it was blamed on Spags, who by multiple accounts told him to play it safe. Many sportswriters say they did the right thing with a rookie QB and a suspect set of WRs.

But what DID they do, exactly? Run a lot and throw a little, like the Jets did with Sanchez? In a word: No. Only two QBs in the entire NFL threw more passes than Sam Bradford. He threw a ton, actually.

BUT... he threw short. Really short. As in, 30th in the league with a sub 6.0 YPA. Did that draw up the safeties and hurt the running game?

Yup. The Rams ranked 31st in YPC at 3.7. Only one team did it worse.

Will Shurmur be more aggressive next year with McCoy? I'm not so sure. Like Pluto said, 7 of McCoy's 9 picks came when he tried to go over 20 yards, the highest percentage of INTs per "long" pass in the entire NFL. And the Browns WRs really aren't less "suspect" than the Rams corps last year.

Not trying to be a downer, but it's something to think about. I give Shurmur credit for going to war with the army he has and all that... so how he calls plays will depend on what he thinks will work. And it might be that he thinks last year's Rams plan is this year's Browns plan.

I hope not. And that's why I keep thinking we could use a serious veteran WR at the top of the depth chart.

Rookie or not, for $50 mil, you better be hucking the shit out of the ball. Rex "Going Deeeep" Grossman will do it for league minimum and an 8-ball. Bradford has the accuracy and that pretty whip-like release (Rogers). Is it Shurmur?

Anyway, I'm glad we didn't trade up for him if he's a $50 mil dink & dunker.

Advantage, Holmgren.

[Brown Warrior]

Actually, Bradford politely complained about wanting the reins taken off, and more than once. The routes just weren't there and they really didn't have the WRs to run them anyway. They lost all those guys to injuries, including their speed guy (Avery).

Sez, I totally acknowledged all of that in my post, the one that Leg just copied. It's generally assumed that Spags gave the orders and Shurmur essentially agreed, and the truth is, both were probably right given the situation. It's not like Shurmur learned to be conservative in the WCO in Philly... because if anything, McNabb could've benefitted from being MORE judicious.

The question is whether he'll see a similar situation here: young QB, first year in the system, strength at TE and RB, and iffy WR talent, especially in the speed area. McCoy is entering his second year and is already 25, so you hope he doesn't treat him like a rookie.

The bottom line: The Browns don't have to go 20+ all the time. They just have to do it often enough and well enough to create a threat and keep the safeties back. The alternative can be really tough to watch, as we saw with wounded Kosar, Frye, and handcuffed Quinn.

[Legacy Fan]

I think Greg Little is enough of an unknown to give opposing defenses concern. He's certainly enough athlete to stretch the field and has the hands that will automatically improve Colts accuracy.

Plus he's a maniac. And that's effing awesome.

[YtownBacker]

I don't think Little is the stretch the field guy some are looking for him to be. He's more of the intermediate route type guy. Robo and MoMass are both faster then Little.

Little brings something we don't have and though, hard nosed guy who can jump out of the stadium and outfight the defender for the ball. Plus, he will run you over after the catch. But, he's not a "just go long and I'll throw it as far as I can" receiver. That may be Mitchell.

[Brown Warrior]

Little ran 4.5 and 4.51. I think that's faster than Mo... and Robo's 4.46 might be a bit misleading, as Alo pointed out. None of them are burners, though. I think of them all as 4.5s guys. Run'em in a race tomorrow, it's a virtual tie.

But "getting behind" the coverage is a knack about more than just timed speed, as Y pointed out. Whatever it is, we could really use some.

[Sez.EJ]

Momass seems the stretch the field guy out of the guys at the top of any potential depth chart right now. We do have some speed with the unkown guys.. but it's not always speed that gets deep
Routes, scheme , and footwork that make it happen more often than not. The NFL history is littered with slower guys who always seem to get open deep.

It's not the deep passing game I'm concerned with.. It's the WHOLE passing game that's at issue. But I am in a positive state of mind about it. We have some things going our way.

[YtownBacker]

I would love to see them move MoMass to the slot. That could be his best position.

I think the guy who stretches the field will be the guy who draws the mismatch. You are right, it doesn't have to be a burner. It should be the guy who has the best matchup in single coverage.

[Brown Warrior]

I put it in the free agent thread: Sobo has Maehl and Sanzebacher rated 1/2 for our UDFA targets. Both are Amendola-esque slots, both are quick (Maehl was 1 in three-cone and Sanzebacher was 2 at the Combine), both have great hands. Both will be on NFL rosters. Both should've been drafted.

Maehl's a little more of everything (bigger, faster, quicker) but Dane's local. It's about winning the recruiting war because both will be very popular.

Sobo called the WR spot "a work in progress" and has said he absolutely sees more changes. I could see one of these two guys and a pretty serious free agent.

[YtownBacker]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

I put it in the free agent thread: Sobo has Maehl and Sanzebacher rated 1/2 for our UDFA targets. Both are Amendola-esque slots, both are quick (Maehl was 1 in three-cone and Sanzebacher was 2 at the Combine), both have great hands. Both will be on NFL rosters. Both should've been drafted.

Maehl's a little more of everything (bigger, faster, quicker) but Dane's local. It's about winning the recruiting war because both will be very popular.

Sobo called the WR spot "a work in progress" and has said he absolutely sees more changes. I could see one of these two guys and a pretty serious free agent.

Sanzesbacker is a Wes Welker type of slot receiver. Quicker then fast and can find the seams in a zone and isn't afraid to go over the middle and make a catch. I was shocked he didn't get drafted.

That said, between MoMass, Cribbs, Haggerty, Norwood, Moore and Cameron we are loaded inside. We need a stretch the field guy more then a slot guy. When I think about it, Norwood and Sanzesbacker might be real close to the same type of player, with like potential.

I don't think there is a UDFA that can make our roster because we have a lot of decent, with potential type of guys. We need a better then most, young veteran, who can stretch the field, or I pass. Unless you can find a guy who can walk in a be the glue to this receiving corp then it's better to spend our money elsewhere.

[Brown Warrior]

Honestly, Y, I think that's a list of names and Shurmur, Heckert, and Holmgren might think it all adds up to a big pile of nothing. If Sobo's right, and he's hearing that the Browns are planning to do more at WR, the only returnees might be Robiskie, Massoquoi, and (argh) Cribbs... who shouldn't be playing WR at all.

I could see Little, Sanzebacher, and a serious free agent all coming in. But it comes down to what the brass REALLY think about their WRs, especially beyond Robo and Mo.

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

Sanzesbacker is a Wes Welker type of slot receiver. Quicker then fast and can find the seams in a zone and isn't afraid to go over the middle and make a catch. I was shocked he didn't get drafted.

That said, between MoMass, Cribbs, Haggerty, Norwood, Moore and Cameron we are loaded inside. We need a stretch the field guy more then a slot guy. When I think about it, Norwood and Sanzesbacker might be real close to the same type of player, with like potential.

I don't think there is a UDFA that can make our roster because we have a lot of decent, with potential type of guys. We need a better then most, young veteran, who can stretch the field, or I pass. Unless you can find a guy who can walk in a be the glue to this receiving corp then it's better to spend our money elsewhere.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Shep: You mention "if we are running the Rams offense" a few times over the past months.. In a sense we will be..but you have to ask yourself..How much of Shurmers offense were they really running with a rookie QB??.. 50%? 60 % by the end of the year?.. The didn't have the most stellar recieving corps in the world either. Last year was about ball controll, limiting turnovers, and trying to stay in games on a team with inferior talent.. So I don't think Shurmer's offense can really be judged by that.. Offenses open up more and more as the QB and offense get familiar and comfortable..then you also have to tailor it some to the talents and abilities of you players..

I don't think that we never saw Shurmers offense running at 100% capacity as it was hamstrung by a rookie qb, time in the system, and by the mediocre talents on the offense (WR's)..not to mention their OL is nothing to write home about..
These things take time to learn... It sometimes takes a couple years before a young QB really has the full grasp of these 6 inch thick playbooks. The get spoon fed a little at a time..

So let's not sell Shurmers offense short until we get to see it in place and MASTERED.. I am not saying this as a slam on you.. It's only that I have noticed in several posts since even before Shurmers hiring you discussed the deficiencies of the Rams/Shurmers offense.. I'm just saying ..I'm not so sure we have really seen it. I think we all have expectations... we have to understand there will be a learning curve and understand.. it's going to start out pretty basic. Walk before you can run so-to- speak

Nice job with that Sez! You're not gonna get a delicious lobster dinner at a McDonald's Drive through window when all you want is nutrition at warped speed. Notice I didn't put the word GOOD in front of nutrition. I don't think we as football fans often GET what it takes to throw deep often and consistently. Coaches just don't forget EVERYTHING they've learned over a couple of decades because they just MOVED to Cleveland. Roster overhauls aren't giving them terrific gridiron chess pieces overnight so there's alot of avoiding check mate to slow down the game for a chance to win it in the end. In the process, the defense gets rest and we go from games endign in the first quarter for MOST of 2008 to alot of close games the 2nd half of 2009 and most of 2010. A Dean Smith slow down strategy works best when you got that playmaker or 2 to cash in on the close score late. If they're playing with broken toes, ankle boots or watching from IR on a team with 11 shitty drafts and countless terrible FA choices - good luck with that!

Anyway, as McNabb's position Coach - Shurmur was always a big part of getting the ball deep. Seemed like it worked best when TO was there right? The Rams were pulling guys off the streets to play WR in 2010 so I doubt they had all kinds of studs intriguing them to go deep often. Whether Spags had the brakes on or not, that's just flushing plays down the toilet and risking injury to a young QB (see Matthew Stafford for the art of perfecting the 5-7 drops from his back). And if one hates the YPC, why in the flock-of-seagulls are they hoping we add Danny Amendola?

We went deep to Cribbs before he received 4 dislocated toes. When I saw Evan Moore was the other guy we went deep to - "LAND HO" to writing on the wall. I don't get as nervous about rookie INTs considering Manning threw 26 of them with better vertical guys in a dry dome than we had. It's ALSO unfair to compare a rookie QB facing Baltimore and Pittsburgh pass rushes for 5-7 step drop performances. I know people clinging to weak arm theories saw that INT vrs Pitt when a timing pattern to an area had only a Steeler DB waiting for the ball to come down as MoMass adjusted his blitz recognition to a short slant. How many COLLEGE kids were facing complicated zone blitz schemes weekly enough to make this an easy transition?

Just because Matt Ryan got it right away doesn't mean guys like Drew Brees, Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, Matt Schaub, Tony Romo, and others did. Do you remember what KIND of pass vrs the Pittsburgh Steelers changed the direction of Carson Palmer's career? A 7 step drop that Cincy scored on and snagged a 10 point lead in the post season with. 1 problem. Pitt took out his knee and we'd be lying if we pretended we've seen the same Carson Palmer since.

Teams WANT to throw deep; but if you don't have the speedy personnel fetching the ball - you gotta hope you can trick people with playaction like Wallace did to the Chiefs when we scored on a long post pattern to Cribbs. Teams started thinking all they had to do was load the box to stop Hillis so it was nice to draw yellow flags on the Saints DB that was grabbing Cribbs. AFTER Cribbs got injured, there wasn't 1 opponent that perceived any legit DEEP threat and this was when Delhomme came back in the lineup. That was about the same point in time when teams began to stop Hillis way better so it went hand in hand with perceived threat of DEEP danger running routes. There's a REASON the Patriots wanted Randy Moss when he could still run 4.3s. There's also a reason the Jets wanted Santonio Holmes. That said, Boldin isn't a speed burner and he didn't have the killer good season everyone thought he'd have. If he could play against Eric Wright all 16 weeks - we're looking at a projection of 48 TD receptions. However, after that 1 great game he had - he only scored 4 TDs in the other 15 games. It's amazing how much Larry Fitzgerald and surrounding cast mattered to his results in Arizona. As it's been said, the same prolly holds true with Breaston and he's clearly not a #1 WR type.

We have to hope Mitchell shows up ready to be the deep guy if he's the one with the wheels and height advantages. FA superstar diva WR types aren't even considering Cleveland until a passing game gets off the ground and there's ONE front office and coaching staff offering stable environment on previously turbulent Lake Waters. This has been a 12 year Poseiden Adventure so we're gonna have to get some success before the studs start wanting them some Cleveland before retiring.