VICKERS WANTS TO STAY.. Will fit the new offense

[Sez.EJ]

Vickers says he'd fit into Browns' new offense if given chance
(from nfl.com)



Free-agent fullback Lawrence Vickers can't be sure of his future with the Cleveland Browns, not after they took Stanford's Owen Marecic in the fourth round of April's NFL draft, and not after general manager Tom Heckert's comments following that.

Vickers, who has played five seasons with the Browns since they selected him out of Colorado in the 2006 draft, recently told The Plain Dealer that he wasn't disappointed when the team nabbed Marecic, apparently to replace him. Vickers was just perplexed.
"I was like, 'Wow,' but at the same time, I laughed," Vickers said. "I don't know what their plans are."
The Browns have a new coach, Pat Shurmur, and a new offensive scheme, the West Coast, and they're looking for the right fit at fullback. After drafting Marecic, Heckert said of Vickers' future in Cleveland: "When the league starts (after the lockout), we'll see."
Not exactly a ringing endorsement.
Vickers fears his reputation as an explosive "knockout fullback," won by opening holes for Jamal Lewis in successive 1,000-yard seasons and paving Jerome Harrison's path to 561 yards in the final three games of 2009, has clouded respect for what he can do with the ball in his hands.
Vickers played in a variation of the West Coast offense at Colorado, gaining more than 500 yards rushing and receiving in his college career. He has caught 41 passes with the Browns, 23 of them in two seasons (2007 and 2008) in former coordinator Rob Chudzinski's offensive scheme.
"I am a West Coast fullback. That's what they don't understand," said Vickers, who didn't receive a contract tender before the NFL lockout started and hasn't spoken to Shurmur or Heckert about his standing with the team. "... Maybe if I wasn't knocking people out, maybe I'd still be known as a versatile fullback. Anybody that watches football knows.
"The last two years, I haven't caught the ball. I wasn't a part of the offense. So I made a way for me to be on the field. That's what a football player does. Anybody that can make his presence on the field without the ball is a helluva guy.
"I played in the West Coast offense at Colorado," Vickers added. "When I first came to the NFL, my first carry was at tailback. In Chud's offense, look at how many passes I caught. People have short-term memories. I forgive them for that. What I've done for you lately is knock people out. That's only because that's all that was left for me to do."
Vickers said the Browns under former coach Eric Mangini were "a team where they don't even use a fullback. Mangini's era wasn't really a fullback era. I played just on (the belief that) 'this person has to be on the field.' Everything I got wasn't given. I took it. Our offense was based on New England's. They don't even have a fullback."
Vickers understands that teams must make decisions, and he doesn't begrudge the Browns their choice of fullbacks.
"I'm not disappointed, because I understand business totally," he said. "In business, you've got to make decisions that are for the business. If it is the end of me, kudos to Cleveland. I'm not angry. My own personal goal was to be in one spot for my whole career. I love Cleveland. I wanted to be like Kevin Mack, who spent his whole career there.
"If it is my departure in Cleveland, I'm going out with a bang. The team is on the rise. Am I mad at Tom or even Mike (Holmgren)? No. I'll see them. I'll shake their hands."
Vickers hopes the team will want him back, even as he realizes it probably won't.
"I just hope I don't have to come to Cleveland in a different uniform, because it's gonna be bad (for the Browns)," he said. "Those (Browns linebackers) are my guys. They know they will come with it and I will come with it. It's gonna be one of those all-time Cleveland games."

I love this guy. He certainly seemed athletic enough at Colorado and as a rookie..But I understand the Browns position. Fullback is a position you don't spend big bucks at and with the fullback we drafted who really seems like a "true footballer".. Vickers is all but gone. It's too bad. I loved watching him destroy people. But you don't keep 2 fullbackes..especially when you have a tailback like Hillis who's kind of a fullback type anyway. But who knows what happens.. We do lack depth and didnt' draft anyone.. as for UDFA's.. that's a crapshoot... Just like free agency.. UDFA period before any training camp is going to be a madhouse short fast and crazy.. A proven guy like Vickers..still has an outside shot at getting back on the roster. If he leaves.. I won't cry about it though.. We have a young buck ready to roll in Marecic.
(If only he could figure out how to grow 7 inches and gain 75 lbs we could make him our RT)

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Vickers says he'd fit into Browns' new offense if given chance
(from nfl.com)

"I played in the West Coast offense at Colorado," Vickers added. "When I first came to the NFL, my first carry was at tailback. In Chud's offense, look at how many passes I caught. People have short-term memories. I forgive them for that. What I've done for you lately is knock people out. That's only because that's all that was left for me to do."

Vickers said the Browns under former coach Eric Mangini were "a team where they don't even use a fullback. Mangini's era wasn't really a fullback era. I played just on (the belief that) 'this person has to be on the field.' Everything I got wasn't given. I took it. Our offense was based on New England's. They don't even have a fullback."

I love Cleveland. I wanted to be like Kevin Mack, who spent his whole career there.
"If it is my departure in Cleveland, I'm going out with a bang. The team is on the rise. Am I mad at Tom or even Mike (Holmgren)? No. I'll see them. I'll shake their hands."
Vickers hopes the team will want him back, even as he realizes it probably won't.
"I just hope I don't have to come to Cleveland in a different uniform, because it's gonna be bad (for the Browns)," he said. "Those (Browns linebackers) are my guys. They know they will come with it and I will come with it. It's gonna be one of those all-time Cleveland games."

Sez: I love this guy. He certainly seemed athletic enough at Colorado and as a rookie..But I understand the Browns position. Fullback is a position you don't spend big bucks at and with the fullback we drafted who really seems like a "true footballer".. Vickers is all but gone. It's too bad. I loved watching him destroy people. But you don't keep 2 fullbackes..especially when you have a tailback like Hillis who's kind of a fullback type anyway. But who knows what happens..

Nice article and good points Sez. I hope people appreciated what Vickers did for the running game. I think if he showed better hands, the brass would think differently about retaining him. What's weird is it seemed like his best feature comign out of Color-adoo was his hands. Once he became a backfield Guard in Cleveland, those hands turned into a rock quarry. With DA as his QB for part of the time, that didn't help his short range chemistry with QB at all.

With today's transition to a pass first league, FBs cannot have unreliable hands. Heckert and Holmgren want a Tom Rathman clone or a Kevin Mack replica from Harbaugh's Lindy Infante offense (Marecic) at Stanford. One thing people forget about Mack was he had great hands. That's why teams buried themselves drooling about Kosar's immobility, he'd either checkdown to Mack or Byner and smile right back at the teeth of a blitz with a little "good luck with that!"

Vickers brought the attitude and character that provided leadership so it would be nice to see a guy like this get a chance to stay. When someone that has been here through turmoil and transition says I LOVE Cleveland, there's that connection with today's players we've been longing for.

It was the SAME lunch pail backfield of him and Hillis that rekindled fond memories of Mack and Byner. Hillis was alot like Byner. Byner was a 10th round pick that brought a willingness to fight for every yard while Hillis wasn't the 1st or 2nd RB from his college team drafted. I know extra effort guys have a tendency to leave the ball on the ground BUT their effort and passion make me overlook/ forgive it. There was alot of ignorance and parting shots by Cleveland media aimed at Bynver oin his way to being an All Pro and workhorse of the Superbowl Champion Redskins while we got sume puney guy named Mike Oliphant that ran track at Puget Sound and ran 4.3s in front of scouts. The Redskins grand thefted us in that trade the Cleveland media was all excited about. I'm glad we were able to reverse karma a little and snag an underused Hillis that was hungry to prove. THESE are the types of guys I want here over the free agent divas with best work in the rear view mirror acting like they are entitled in Cleveland. That's why when we contemplate what FA WR we want to overpay, they better be slam dunk obvious upgrade without excuses of "I don't have Fitzgerald and Boldin drawing the best 2 corners on the D so Revis has me covered." Ummm, we had a young guy that TIED the Jets by scoriing a TD on Revis. Even better, it's the SAME kid Green says he patterned his approach to college football after as an ideal mentor by the name of MoMass.

I've always said, there's something special about that player that sets out to PROVE he belongs. I think of free agency and the first things that come to mind are "already too satisfied with career," "sense of entitlement," "overpaid," "rear view mirror in lieu of upside" and then I remember all the empty chest cavities like Shaun Rogers, Shaun Smith, Roy Barker, Irv Smith, Jerry Ball. We've invested time in some young players that I feel is really gonna pay off. What happens when you get impatient with an investment? You miss the payoff from it (ie; Lance Moore). Ironically, that's the 1 free agent WR I'd say "run it" to. Otherwise, I just see the same types that have set us back on work in rear view mirror at the expense of NOT developing our investments. Years 2-4 are BIG payoffs if we follow trends like Miles Austin, Vincent Jackson, Sidney Rice, Hines Ward, TO, Lance Moore, Mike Wallace, and others. It gets even MORE helpful when there's an experienced QB throwing strikes. Sorry I got off path a little with the FAs. The message is MORE about having the guys that WANT to prove themselves over the content check cashers that have set us back to date.

[plumcrazy73]

yea i want to keep vickers, the new fb sounds good and all but something tells me vickers is needed on the team

[Riffer X]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Nice article and good points Sez. I hope people appreciated what Vickers did for the running game. I think if he showed better hands, the brass would think differently about retaining him. What's weird is it seemed like his best feature comign out of Color-adoo was his hands. Once he became a backfield Guard in Cleveland, those hands turned into a rock quarry. With DA as his QB for part of the time, that didn't help his short range chemistry with QB at all.

With today's transition to a pass first league, FBs cannot have unreliable hands. Heckert and Holmgren want a Tom Rathman clone or a Kevin Mack replica from Harbaugh's Lindy Infante offense (Marecic) at Stanford. One thing people forget about Mack was he had great hands. That's why teams buried themselves drooling about Kosar's immobility, he'd either checkdown to Mack or Byner and smile right back at the teeth of a blitz with a little "good luck with that!"

Vickers brought the attitude and character that provided leadership so it would be nice to see a guy like this get a chance to stay. When someone that has been here through turmoil and transition says I LOVE Cleveland, there's that connection with today's players we've been longing for.

It was the SAME lunch pail backfield of him and Hillis that rekindled fond memories of Mack and Byner. Hillis was alot like Byner. Byner was a 10th round pick that brought a willingness to fight for every yard while Hillis wasn't the 1st or 2nd RB from his college team drafted. I know extra effort guys have a tendency to leave the ball on the ground BUT their effort and passion make me overlook/ forgive it. There was alot of ignorance and parting shots by Cleveland media aimed at Bynver oin his way to being an All Pro and workhorse of the Superbowl Champion Redskins while we got sume puney guy named Mike Oliphant that ran track at Puget Sound and ran 4.3s in front of scouts. The Redskins grand thefted us in that trade the Cleveland media was all excited about. I'm glad we were able to reverse karma a little and snag an underused Hillis that was hungry to prove. THESE are the types of guys I want here over the free agent divas with best work in the rear view mirror acting like they are entitled in Cleveland. That's why when we contemplate what FA WR we want to overpay, they better be slam dunk obvious upgrade without excuses of "I don't have Fitzgerald and Boldin drawing the best 2 corners on the D so Revis has me covered." Ummm, we had a young guy that TIED the Jets by scoriing a TD on Revis. Even better, it's the SAME kid Green says he patterned his approach to college football after as an ideal mentor by the name of MoMass.

I've always said, there's something special about that player that sets out to PROVE he belongs. I think of free agency and the first things that come to mind are "already too satisfied with career," "sense of entitlement," "overpaid," "rear view mirror in lieu of upside" and then I remember all the empty chest cavities like Shaun Rogers, Shaun Smith, Roy Barker, Irv Smith, Jerry Ball. We've invested time in some young players that I feel is really gonna pay off. What happens when you get impatient with an investment? You miss the payoff from it (ie; Lance Moore). Ironically, that's the 1 free agent WR I'd say "run it" to. Otherwise, I just see the same types that have set us back on work in rear view mirror at the expense of NOT developing our investments. Years 2-4 are BIG payoffs if we follow trends like Miles Austin, Vincent Jackson, Sidney Rice, Hines Ward, TO, Lance Moore, Mike Wallace, and others. It gets even MORE helpful when there's an experienced QB throwing strikes. Sorry I got off path a little with the FAs. The message is MORE about having the guys that WANT to prove themselves over the content check cashers that have set us back to date.

Great post Flugs!!! I like Vickers and always have, but we need a real pass catching threat out of the backfield. Not only should the FB have good hands, they have to be able to run routes, not just be dump off guys. It sucks that this guy wants to stay here though and loves Cleveland, really sucks that he won't be back.

In today's league and the fact the Browns are counting so much on Hardesty and Hillis, the FB has to fill many roles on the team. Marecic will be on every special team and possibly even be an emergency backup at LB. He also will be a ton cheaper than resigning Vickers.

It is the right decision by the Browns moving forward, it is just unfortunate that is has to happen to a guy passionate about Cleveland.

[Sez.EJ]

I have to wonder if Vickers is working overtime right now on his hands in case he gets a chance.. With our lack of depth at RB.. he could get his agent to at least talk him into a one year deal with a chance to back up fullback and tailback. Seriously ..we are lacking depth.. I seem to think that Vickers if he lost a few Lbs.. could be the #2 fullback and #3 tailback.. that's not the worst way to roll with this.. especially with the CBA environment as it stands..

Flug's nice call on the Mack and Byner.. I looked at some numbers check this out

1985 75 passes for Mack and Byner
1986 65 Passes for Mack and Byner.. add "Marty's son".. Herman Fontenot had 45 more.. total of 110 passes for RB's
1987 84 passes for Mack and Byner

This took an amazing amount of pressure of a young immobile Bernie.. None of our top recievers were burners in the classic sense.. but they ran precise routes. Our run game had to be respected (same as right now. We were a dangerous and discipined offense.. I know this offense is not the same.. but it's not really that different either. ...

The other side of this coin.. We had an amazing defense led by arguably the top CB tandem/secondary in the league. A front 7 without superstars who were just athletic enough....but again..disciplined..

Marty built some championship teams those few years...but for a couple bad breaks and questionable calls.. Our history could look quite different.. Best football years of my life..even with the dissapointments.

Byner has always been my all time favorite Brown.. we gave him away... made me sick. Mike oliphant??.. please...

[Brown Warrior]

This is one I actually totally get. Shurmur's offense played without a fullback most of the time last year and with two TEs (one in-line, one not) more than any other formation. Jordan Cameron is insurance for Moore, who's had some dings, to make sure we always have two pass-catching TEs available, so that seems to support that plan.

Meanwhile, Marecic (like Hillis and Hardesty) is a skilled player who can catch and run... while Vickers is a bit of an adventure when you throw him the ball. He's a full-on badass lead blocker on a team that doesn't seem to be planning to use one more than in very specific situations. You could see another position player (DL, for instance) groomed to play fullback in short yardage, like so many teams do.

Assuming health, Marecic and Hillis would be the "jump package."

[Sez.EJ]

While we are on the topic of RB's.. A free agent I would bring in (and no resigning vickers in this scenario) Is Jason Snelling. He fits the Hillis mold.. When Turner got nicked up in Atlanta Snelling filled in amazingly and is an amazing reciever out of the backfield for a big boy.. Can play tailback and fullback. He was on ESPN radio today... I watched him quite a bit the last 2 years as I had Michael Turner on my fantasy keeper team..so I got to see a lot of snelling.. How much does he cost would be the issue.. But he would fit into what we do perfectly.. We don't know where Hardesty is..and depth is a question at the RB spot if Hillis goes down. We found out the hard way last year. Snelling is a guy who could come in and have almost zero dropoff in production.

[YtownBacker]

As much as I like Vickers he is an extra piece and may want some big bucks and a long term contract. He also hinders the ability to play Hillis and Hardesty together and will stunt the growth of Marecic.

Do you pay Marecic the league minimum to play or do you pay Vickers $2 to $4 million to play and do the same things. Hard t0 let Vickers go but I just can't see where he fits.

[Legacy Fan]

So glad Hardesty is a lock for the pro bowl.


What the hell?

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

I have to wonder if Vickers is working overtime right now on his hands in case he gets a chance.. With our lack of depth at RB.. he could get his agent to at least talk him into a one year deal with a chance to back up fullback and tailback. Seriously ..we are lacking depth.. I seem to think that Vickers if he lost a few Lbs.. could be the #2 fullback and #3 tailback.. that's not the worst way to roll with this.. especially with the CBA environment as it stands..

Flug's nice call on the Mack and Byner.. I looked at some numbers check this out

1985 75 passes for Mack and Byner
1986 65 Passes for Mack and Byner.. add "Marty's son".. Herman Fontenot had 45 more.. total of 110 passes for RB's
1987 84 passes for Mack and Byner

This took an amazing amount of pressure of a young immobile Bernie.. None of our top recievers were burners in the classic sense.. but they ran precise routes. Our run game had to be respected (same as right now. We were a dangerous and discipined offense.. I know this offense is not the same.. but it's not really that different either. ...

The other side of this coin.. We had an amazing defense led by arguably the top CB tandem/secondary in the league. A front 7 without superstars who were just athletic enough....but again..disciplined..

Marty built some championship teams those few years...but for a couple bad breaks and questionable calls.. Our history could look quite different.. Best football years of my life..even with the dissapointments.

Byner has always been my all time favorite Brown.. we gave him away... made me sick. Mike oliphant??.. please...

Those were some really fond memories Sez. Slaughter, Langhorne, Brennan and Weathers on the perimeter don't seem alot different than what we've been drafting. I appreciate your research about the reception volumes from the backfield - LOVE those goodies It just seemed like Lindy Infante knew exactly how to bring the offense along the right way without overwhelming a young QB like Bernie at the time. 1985 was Bernie's rookie year and it was the same year that BOTH Mack and Byner rushed for over 1000 yards. Meaning, it wasn't ALL on the young QB with too much too soon. The unique thing about Mack in that 240 pound frame was he ran 4.5s - tailback speed in FB body. When Greg Lloyd didn't believe it - he woke up to smelling salts, advil and "here's your sign."

We look like we're building a similar attack which understands Cleveland is outdoors and suspect to mud and bad footing in November and December with the bigger back thinking. Knowing they all come with acceleration gears - I like it. The ONLY time I didn't like a BIG back was when Tur-telle Smith was too slow as a lead blocker, which always made the defense beat us to the point of attack. As he got too old, he was more of a hindrance than a help. Hillis isn't slow and neither is Marecic by the sounds of it.

One of the intriguing qualities about Hardesty was that he had one of the highest reception volumes of all the Division I RBs coming out in his draft class. He gets some brutal harsh treatment/criticism for being injured last year like it's exactly how he planned his lifetime dream to shake out. Our fanbase has been snakebitten so there's been a lot of practice being cynical I guess. SOMETIMES rolling the dice on a kid like that enables a franchise to say "yaaa, we drafted Terrell Davis in spite of some injury history in college". OR, a rare occasion a team like Cincy can say "yaaa, we knew Anthony Munoz was rarely ever healthy enough to play during his college career at USC; but we felt he was worth rolling the dice on because of his winning combo of TALENT & PASSION for the game." No ball of fire = no Hall of Fame because you just can't fake that stuff IMO. Give Hardesty a chance folks because he's not wired to hate if you've done any research on him. If you look at the draft everywhere ONLY a % of picks make it as starters when NFL execs are doing their version of betting on thoroughbreds. Tons of research goes into it but NOBODY shy of Nostradamus or Sylvia Brown can predict which healthy horses blow out a wheel in the heat of competition. Sometimes a favorite horse gets put to sleep in a sport they earned a great reputation in. OTHER times they come out of nowhere and all the people that were too scared to bet on them are watching the one person/team that did cash in on an Ernest Byner, Wayne Chrebet, Kurt Warner, Wes Welker, Tony Romo or Brian Sipe. Which one of those guys accomplishes anything without given a CHANCE? Alot of those guys weren't immediate either so they could have been written off like people want to do to Hardesty already.

I think we can put together some interesting combos behind QB and keep em all fresh and productive. Like you pointed out Sez, there was a Herman Fontenot with 45 receptions on third down and I think the really slow footed Brian Brennan in our WR corps made alot of clutch catches to move the chains as well. I remembered Calvin Hill coming to us with grey hair to relive the Pruitts on 3rd downs with similar receiving success during Sam's years. Whenever, we've been relevant - our backs caught the ball. Consequently, the BLITZ never owned us like it has in about 10 of the last 12 years. Pretty critical stuff when playing gridiron chess because it marks the difference between reacting to the aggressor defensively and dictating to them by setting them straight as to WHO the aggressor is. What happened in St Louis when people blitzed Kurt Warner? "Hey how about Marshall Faulk's 4.2 forty speed on the swing pass through the vacated zone you just blitzed from all the way into the endzone?" There's a politically correct middle finger saying that blitz is gonna rest in peace for the rest of the day or this gets ugly for y'all.

[Enigmatic Evil]

I agree with those who have made the assertion that Vickers doesn't 'fit' but the question I have is why? I think it was Y-Town who brought up the point about Derek Anderson, it's going to be tough to look like you have good hands when DA is passing you the ball (Ditto for Quinn, as well). Vickers 'type cast' I think is the main reason he won't be back. Is it a true lack of versatility, or was it Mangini's infamously closed mindedness that helped the brass make their mind up. I don't know, detecting a hint of jadedness in my post isn't out of context. I'm gonna miss Vickers.

[Legacy Fan]

Fluges-

I'm not criticizing Hardesty for being injured. I'm criticizing the notion that he's going to be an automatic pro-bowler with all of the "with Hillis & hardesty, we're set in the backfield" talk. Dude has been riding on spare tires since his last year and school and busting those last preseason doesn't have me super excited to be tossing vickers to the curb.

We have two proven backs. Hillis and Vickers. Hardesty and marejic are not.

Queen and DA's flaws were their short games. That would affect Vickers hands coming out of the backfield right? And with dumbass Dabs running the ball until we needed 10+ yds to keep the offense on the field, Vickers hands weren't really part of the plan.