New QBR and How Browns QB's Fair?

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

You said, "If the surrounding environment didn't matter." Nobody's said that. Just doing my job as the head of the Stop Strawmanning Foundation.

But it's amazing how Green Bay, New Orleans, Indy, and New England can plug receivers, RBs, and even LTs in and out of the lineup and keep producing. Who was Peyton's blindside protector last year? Charlie Brown?

True but that's 4 of 32 teams so are we talking the rule or exception to it? Don't forget I was appointed to be your Strawman Vice President. Bill Polian has always done an excellent job of drafting surrounding 1st round talent to set a successful environment. Here's countless examples: Anthony Castonzo, Reggie Wayne, Edge James, Dallas Clark, Anthony Gonzalez, Joseph Addai and Donald Brown. Let's not forget that Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk were already employed when Manning was drafted. Pretty cool to have a 4.2 forty QB to bury a blitz with and Harrison's verticality in a dry indoor climate.

For the most part, I think we see this the same way. It just wouldn't be Flugel-Shep dialogue without us polarizing points. I don't think there's a better way to rate QBs than with the passer ratings they use. I just think people have to be as careful as Jimmy Johnson was in not caving into the apocalyptic media and fanbase that wanted Steve Walsh to replace Troy Aikman. We agree there were times when Steve young's ratings looked fair and when they looked unfair. We also understand after witnessing Kevin Shaffer at LT here why Michale Vick needed track shoes in Atlanta while he could sport betetr passer ratings in Philly. I like to use examples so you know where I'm coming from. I used plenty earlier in this thread if more are needed.

[Brown Warrior]

Yeah, but you listed guys who played with/for Peyton Manning, which is my point: Are all these guys really that good? Jacob Tamme? Pierre Garcon? His four left tackles and 11 running backs? Starks or whoever ran the ball behind Rodgers? That midget in New England?

The one point somebody made is don't overvalue any free agent from those teams (including my f/a obsession James Jones) because they have THOSE QBs.

Just examples of how four of the best QBs seem to make it work with anybody they plug in around them. Whoever that next guy is, a top 5-10 QB who stays in one system, I'm betting they can do the same thing.

[nickers]

The question I have is I really think dropped passes should be chargded to WR's instead of QB unless the ball sails past or behind him...then I really think you get a true guage.

[Brown Warrior]

Originally Posted by nickers

The question I have is I really think dropped passes should be chargded to WR's instead of QB unless the ball sails past or behind him...then I really think you get a true guage.

That's a good point... like "Adjusted QBR." Like an error isn't charged as a hit to a pitcher. I like that a lot, in fact.

[nickers]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

That's a good point... like "Adjusted QBR." Like an error isn't charged as a hit to a pitcher. I like that a lot, in fact.

I also think this would give the owners more leverage in dealing with new contracts for WR's...It would make them really earn theyre pay....Might not see them act all cocky and badass to the press as much.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Yeah, but you listed guys who played with/for Peyton Manning, which is my point: Are all these guys really that good? Jacob Tamme? Pierre Garcon? His four left tackles and 11 running backs? Starks or whoever ran the ball behind Rodgers? That midget in New England?

The one point somebody made is don't overvalue any free agent from those teams (including my f/a obsession James Jones) because they have THOSE QBs.

Just examples of how four of the best QBs seem to make it work with anybody they plug in around them. Whoever that next guy is, a top 5-10 QB who stays in one system, I'm betting they can do the same thing.

Well done Shep! All true above and I agree with those 4 examples you gave earlier. But you also agree how often Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers get drafted. Rarely.

We HAVE to remember when life before Antonio Gates and Keenan McCardell was so UNFAIR to Drew Brees in San Diego that they felt compelled to draft a QB first overall. Therefore, the following QBs had countles critics in their first gigs or first seasons: Drew Brees, Michael Vick, Steve Young, Doug Williams, Vinny T, Troy Aikman. Nothing more than there's always times the ratings don't tell the whole story. Even though this was a lifetime ago, Terry Bradshaw got booed out of Pittsburgh his first 5 seasons there before going on to win 4 Superbowls so an environment conducive to winning is essential.

Bill Poilan has had a nice nevironment in Indy since Peyton joined Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk. Then he has drafted the following guys in round 1: Reggie Wayne, Dallas In-Chains Clark, Anthony Gonzalez, Edge James, Joseph Addai, Donald Brown and most recently LT Anthony Castonzo. If you have ENOUGH of those matchup gems in tact - it does indeed make room for a Mt Union Pierre Garcon or an Austin Collie. Marshall set an all puprose record back when Manning was a rookie with 2227 all purpose yards in blitz busters preventing 28 INTs from hitting the 30s if you know what I mean. Manning himself said that was a precious comfort as a rookie QB; and there's that environment I speak of that we've NEVER seen since we got our team back just yet. Kurt Warner felt a difference between St Louis & the Giants that benched him. He got another terrific environment in St Louis to showcase his strengths. It's huge toward toward when passer ratings are fair IMO.

I MOSTLY agree with you in this dicussion believe it or not. I'm just showing where I'm coming from about the fariness thing. I think the criteria used is about the best they can choose to rate QBs. I'm just saying if somebody doesn't understand the fairness, one mght have knee jerked to start Steve Walsh over Troy Aikman or the GM in San Diego SHOULD have listened to Marty when he said Drew Brees was NOT the biggest problem that needed to be solved at pick #1 overall. San Diego's goof was the reason you could use New Orleans as 1 of those 4 teams today.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Interesting points here and I like this because it plays with the stats. That is why they are there. They are there for us to play with and manipulate for whatever means. In this instance it's some braggadocio for Colt McCoy.

Interesting to note who he had a better 2010 than, Kyle Orton had a terrible year but to state statistically he had a better year than Sam Bradford who almost got the Rams to the playoffs seems a bit ridiculous to me. Given the fact that Bradford started the whole season to Colt's, what, 6 games?

That's the argument against the rookie season comparison as well. Of those listed, I think only Sanchez played more games than McCoy and Sanchez played on a team that went to the AFC Championship game (am I getting my seasons mixed up here?)

Just food for thought.

I think we'll see what Colt's made of at a professional level this year. He's learning a new system as is the rest of the team. I think we will get a larger read of what Colt's potential is this year. We threw him to the wolves last year, he survived. Now this year he needs to show us that he can win football games, not just manage them.

Originally Posted by BernietheKid

In 2010 he was better than:
Kyle Orton, Jon Kitna, Jason Campbell, Sam Bradford, Shaun Hill, Jay Cutler, Matt Hasselbeck, Chad Henne, Donovan McNabb, Alex Smith, Derek Anderson, Brett Favre, Jimmy Clausen.

According to this he had a better rookie year than:
Sanchez, Freeman, and Stafford.

[nickers]

Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil

Interesting points here and I like this because it plays with the stats. That is why they are there. They are there for us to play with and manipulate for whatever means. In this instance it's some braggadocio for Colt McCoy.

Interesting to note who he had a better 2010 than, Kyle Orton had a terrible year but to state statistically he had a better year than Sam Bradford who almost got the Rams to the playoffs seems a bit ridiculous to me. Given the fact that Bradford started the whole season to Colt's, what, 6 games?

That's the argument against the rookie season comparison as well. Of those listed, I think only Sanchez played more games than McCoy and Sanchez played on a team that went to the AFC Championship game (am I getting my seasons mixed up here?)

Just food for thought.

I think we'll see what Colt's made of at a professional level this year. He's learning a new system as is the rest of the team. I think we will get a larger read of what Colt's potential is this year. We threw him to the wolves last year, he survived. Now this year he needs to show us that he can win football games, not just manage them.

very salient EE...you said it right...Im really looking forward to it.

[Brown Warrior]

Quinn rising? Sure thought he looked like the real deal a couple of times... then got bad.

Brady Quinn gets more snaps with No. 2 offense | ProFootballTalk