I shouldn't have let the pre-season fool me.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

What are you talking about dude? Are you serious? That JAX game was a direct result of poor coaching, and that play was predictably bad play calling on the part of Ryan. You forgot the play call - you must have. There is no way that RB gets loose in our secondary if the LB is not playing the flat. Wrong personnel, wrong play call, bad coaching.

Your team is up 3 under a minute and you give up a 72 yard SCREEN play, uh yeah that is shit ass poor coaching.

The quickhuddle? A joke of a play with lots of young guys on the field in the first game of this HC's career.

The JAX game? Yeah - that was game 23 for Ryan and Co.

Problem is it wasn't the rookie HC's call. It was the "STAR" defensive coach who's been a HC, DC for many many years in this leauge many many many more than 23 games. and again, they caught him in it twice. and probably could have more times. and as you said, it's a JOKE OF A PLAY. Every time a team gets caught with their pants down like that, every one thinks they are a joke.

You'll never convince me.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

That's still totally different that being caught staring at your captain waiting for the play call to come.

Of course it is totally different. One play was part of a team that had 2 years together, multiple vets on the field, very few rookies, a piss poor play call with the wrong group on the field, and what was it -- 3rd and 23?

This past Sunday was the first game of the season with this group. The last regime had 2 FULL YEARS together and still they had these ball breaking losses over coaching. Poor coaching.

The players and the coaches blew it last Sunday. But no way is that fuck up as bad as JAX.

Eric Mangini had his ass on the line and he could not get his team up to beat CIN and BUF and JAX. Yeah, there is a huge difference in these two regimes.

JAX sucked bug time. That team was falling apart. But low and behold THEIR coach got them ready. Marvin Lewis got his team ready. Chan freakin Gailey got the Bills ready. We had no business losing to those teams.

But that is what you get with bad coaching.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

The other play the refs WRONGLY called a penalty on Cinci and then had to take it back.

I'm sorry we can just agree to disagree. Even if film showed cleveland was susceptable to screens. That's still totally different that being caught staring at your captain waiting for the play call to come.

I see that as much worse than the other.

That wasn't a play where CLE wasn't lined up. It also didn't result in an easy TD. That makes it one play.

We can disagree. To me the main thing in both cases is CLE found a way to lose a game in the forth quarter with shotty D on one play. Screen, failure to be in position, whatever the case, it's just bad and inexcusable.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Of course it is totally different. One play was part of a team that had 2 years together, multiple vets on the field, very few rookies, a piss poor play call with the wrong group on the field, and what was it -- 3rd and 23?

This past Sunday was the first game of the season with this group. The last regime had 2 FULL YEARS together and still they had these ball breaking losses over coaching. Poor coaching.

The players and the coaches blew it last Sunday. But no way is that fuck up as bad as JAX.

Eric Mangini had his ass on the line and he could not get his team up to beat CIN and BUF and JAX. Yeah, there is a huge difference in these two regimes.

JAX sucked bug time. That team was falling apart. But low and behold THEIR coach got them ready. Marvin Lewis got his team ready. Chan freakin Gailey got the Bills ready. We had no business losing to those teams.

But that is what you get with bad coaching.

Bad coaching is NOT GETTING THE PLAY TO THE FIELD IN TIME. No where in any story. Does it say "The coach called the play in time but our captain on the field didn't relay it fast enough."

and agian, it happened TWICE, if not for the REFs being fooled also, they likely would have had a 2nd TD by it.

You can try to brush it off by saying it was the first game. But a coach as experianced as Jaron should NEVER be caught like that.

But again, let's let this one go, we won't convince each other we are right.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Masters

That wasn't a play where CLE wasn't lined up. It also didn't result in an easy TD. That makes it one play.

We can disagree. To me the main thing in both cases is CLE found a way to lose a game in the forth quarter with shotty D on one play. Screen, failure to be in position, whatever the case, it's just bad and inexcusable.

Nither of us can prove what would have happned had the refs not stopped the play before the snap.

and I agree they are both inexcusable. But for me it was for different reasons.

Actually the good news for this year is, HOPEFULLY this one is more easily correctable. But that's also in my mind what makes it worse.

[Vegasdogg]

I thought the blame was on Jauron. I am not a Jauron fan. I also think the players were responsible.

But the most blame falls on Shurmur. You're the head coach -- call the timeout!

[Masters]

And the other you are bringing up is where the refs flagged Cicny for 12 men on the field, but were wrong and the call was reversed.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Actually the good news for this year is, HOPEFULLY this one is more easily correctable. But that's also in my mind what makes it worse.

That is the good news. The JAX should have been easily correctable too, as that was just bad tackling. Since that was a running theme back to RACs days it also makes it worse.

If CLE's staff and players have more gaffs like that one during the season I'll start getting on them. Right now it just falls under the same old Browns catagory for me.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Masters

And the other you are bringing up is where the refs flagged Cicny for 12 men on the field, but were wrong and the call was reversed.

Right, and the Bengals said they were trying to do the same quick snap thing there. I guess their ploy was the 11th man runs in a little late and then they quick snap it.

I bet if you ask 100 NFL coaches which situation is more embarassing. 85 say the Cinci game.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

I thought the blame was on Jauron. I am not a Jauron fan. I also think the players were responsible.

But the most blame falls on Shurmur. You're the head coach -- call the timeout!

I give Shumur a slight pass, he's not just the HC, he's the OC, he may have been working on plans for the next offensive series. He's new to doing both.

Jaron is the one I blame. but I also have a bias against him to begin with, and that didn't help.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

I thought the blame was on Jauron. I am not a Jauron fan. I also think the players were responsible.

But the most blame falls on Shurmur. You're the head coach -- call the timeout!

The blame goes on Shurmer, Jauron, the assistant defensive coach, Fujita, and DQ. Any one of them could have called for a time out as soon as the ref started to walk away from the football.

It's a bad, bad, bad play. It just goes in the long list of bone head plays we have seen over the years out of Browns teams, regardless of the coach or regime.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Right, and the Bengals said they were trying to do the same quick snap thing there. I guess their ploy was the 11th man runs in a little late and then they quick snap it.

I bet if you ask 100 NFL coaches which situation is more embarassing. 85 say the Cinci game.

Trying to do it, yes. But even in that other instance CLE was actually lining up and out of the huddle before the refs threw the flag and killed the play.

I think they'd say it's like chosing between a punch in the balls and a kick in the balls. If they looked at the whole game and not a single play, the JAX game would win hands down for the other reasons (force 6 turn overs and lose). CLE in the last 12 years have had so many of these types of bone-headed plays ESPN could do a top 10 not top plays on the Browns a lone and have a hard time ranking them 1 to 10.