Should have Lerner kept Mangini and never brought in Holmgren?

[Masters]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

lmao Ah the twisting continues. Hillis was all Mangini. Well documented FACT. In FACT Mangini tried to get Hillis the previous year as well. Hillis would not be here were it not for Mangini ...period.


While I am hopeful Heckert is the real deal ...you can not point to his time in Philly as his "track record" because you do not in FACT know that he was the primary factor in most of those draft. The word out of Philly is Reid was, and that Reid was so willing to push Heckert out because he was getting in the way.

We'll see how his first Manginiless draft turns out, but we're far from being able to crown him personnel genius.

The lack of touches Hillis got yesterday is CRIMINAL.

But we must all remember, Mangini ran Hillis so much because he's an idiot that didn't realize what fantastic receivers he had, and he wasn't just trying to win the game by relying on his best player.

Gotta be true because H&H told us so.

That being a well documented fact is as well documented that Thomas only resigned because EM was gone. Who was the GM? Who did the deal? Who pulled the trigger? All answers are Heckert. That's not to say EM didnt' ask for him or put a bug in Heckerts ear about him. But EM didn't get him. He didn't have that control.

I haven't pointed to Heckert's track record, so I'll assume that's aimed at others. We already saw the first Mangini-less draft last year. Got CLE two starters and possibly a franchise QB (time will tell on Colt). This draft already netted at least on solid starter at DT. We are now on year 3 since EMs only draft. So far it looks to have only netted Mack. Agree it is still too soon to crown Heckert a genius though. Take 3-5 years to really judge drafts.

There were certainly too few rushing touched for Hillis.

To you last line, I'd could turn it the other way and imply anything EM said must have been true, as you seem to think that (I have never said anything either side has said is true. I go by what I see on the field on Sundays). Let me ask you, how many games did EM win last year relying solely on Hillis? That' right, the same number he won the year before relying on Lewis/Harrision, five.

[Masters]

I will also say I don't believe this team can win by passing the ball 40 times a game. Nor can they get away with predicatable play calling of run, pass, pass. Nor should they be going all passes down by 3pts with a little over 4 minutes left. While they may have looked more like they were running an NFL offense the play calling yesterday was as bad as under Dabol.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Masters

We already saw the first Mangini-less draft last year.

Wrong again. Mangini played a huge role in last years draft, in fact it has his markings all over it. FACT.

As was described by Holmgren, Heckert, & Mangini himself multiple times.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if Mangini pushed for Colt ...Mangini haters like to pretend that he did not fly to Texas and spend an entire day with Colt. They also like to pretend that Mangini didn't spend several hours with him a second time.

Ah well, that doesn't fit the agenda.

We all know the well documented issues with the first draft ...if you want to throw all that garbage in Manginis lap ...it again, only points to an agenda.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Masters

I will also say I don't believe this team can win by passing the ball 40 times a game. Nor can they get away with predicatable play calling of run, pass, pass. Nor should they be going all passes down by 3pts with a little over 4 minutes left.

We agree on the above points.

We lack talent. Last year our team played way above their heads in almost every single game. This year I hope they don't play to their actual talent level or we are in for a long pitiful ride.

[Legendary]

A Hammering will do us good as it will give the coach plenty of food for thought. It will make rebuilding better and maybe highlight urgent area we need to solve.

Sacking manager / general manager / president / head coach won't work. We are learning a new system and it take time to make it click.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Wrong again. Mangini played a huge role in last years draft, in fact it has his markings all over it. FACT.

As was described by Holmgren, Heckert, & Mangini himself multiple times.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if Mangini pushed for Colt ...Mangini haters like to pretend that he did not fly to Texas and spend an entire day with Colt. They also like to pretend that Mangini didn't spend several hours with him a second time.

Ah well, that doesn't fit the agenda.

We all know the well documented issues with the first draft ...if you want to throw all that garbage in Manginis lap ...it again, only points to an agenda.

You claiming it as fact doesn't make it one. That is your opinion that EM played a huge roll in last years draft. Neither you nor I were in that draft room. All we have are the indications from the media and what was said by the team. The team of H/H/EM never said EM played a huge role. What they said it was a team effort with everyone having input and MH as a tie breaker. HC's don't scout, which is why they usually have a bad track record of wearing both GM and HC hats. It doesn't have EMs markings all over it, or it likely would have looked like the 2009 draft, with most guys washed out of the league, or looking like reaches (kind of like how NYJ kept drafting successfully if not better w/o EM).

I am sure EM was cool with the Colt pick. Of course the story on that from all three guys was that MH pulled the trigger on Colt. I won't claim that as fact, as all we have to go by is hersay.

There is no agenda and the sooner you lose the conspiracy theories the better. The documented issue of the first draft was EM running it, making moves without discussing with the GM who was supposed to have control of the roster in his contract (he won the grievence he filed over his firing and breach of contract - but funny how that reality gets put into the conspiracy bucket)

[Sez.EJ]

Yes Holmgren brought in his guys.. The huge difference is.. he is letting them do the jobs they were hired for. Mangini brought in Kokonis for what? To say yes eric..thats great eric anything you want eric.. I have no plan of my own eric..thanks for the paycheck eric.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Masters

You claiming it as fact doesn't make it one.

You are correct. Holmgren, Heckert, and Mangini all stating it does in my mind make it a fact.

Originally Posted by Masters

Of course the story on that from all three guys was that MH pulled the trigger on Colt.

I don't know if you believe the stuff you are saying, are just making it up or what. Couldn't be further from the truth. Heckert himself said Holmgren did not pull the trigger on anything. Mangini & Heckert worked together on the draft, as all good GM/HC combos do. Manginis 2 first drafts looked rather similar to Manginis drafts in NY. Unfortunately Mangini was bent over and screwed by Kokinas in his first year (so was the secretary) and the entire draft was dropped in his lap weeks before the event.

Tired of revisionist history. And tired of having to state the same truths over & over. Get it right, don't just make shit up and assume everyone is going to believe it.

Holmgren is not a football God. He sucked as a GM, and he largely sucked as a HC for the past decade. Holmgren in my opinion was the benefactor of great circumstances on a couple of occasions. It's not every year you are handed a team full of future HoFers.

Holmgren should have never been brought in, or if you are going to disregard promises and contracts to your current coach, you might as well just fire him first and then hire Holmgren.

All a bunch of bullshit, and it feels like we just took some gigantic steps backward.

Let's hope it improves, I don't see how it gets much worse than it was on Sunday.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Mangini brought in Kokonis for what?

You continuing to repeat this while ignoring the facts does not make it true.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by Masters

The documented issue of the first draft was EM running it, making moves without discussing with the GM who was supposed to have control of the roster in his contract.

Documented opinions by who, Tony Grossi? And again, what you say is false. EM & Kokinas were supposed to work together on the draft, Kokinas threw a temper tantrum because he wanted Savage powers. Then he basically quit on the team and went off to screw the secretary or whatever he was allegedly doing behind the scenes. Thus, HE was fired, not Mangini.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Heckert himself said Holmgren did not pull the trigger on anything. Mangini & Heckert worked together on the draft, as all good GM/HC combos do.

Yes but who shall we believe? I mean the word after this last draft from Holmgrens mouth was HE made all the decisions last draft, 'cause he couldn't, you know, trust the last guy that he ushered out the door. That's exactly what he sat up there on stage and claimed. So either Heckert is lying or Holmgren is once again lying out of his ass to sooth his ego.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Holmgren is not a football God. He sucked as a GM, and he largely sucked as a HC for the past decade. Holmgren in my opinion was the benefactor of great circumstances on a couple of occasions. It's not every year you are handed a team full of future HoFers.

As some stated when he was being interviewed and I refused to accept at the time, he is an egomaniac that was Ron Wolf's fucking coffee fetcher. Without Ron Wolf apparently the talking heads from Green Bay AND Seattle were correct, without a tough GM up his ass and making the important decisions he's just an average HC.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Holmgren should have never been brought in

Ouch, another inconvenient fact. I can't deny it though, no he shouldn't have.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

All a bunch of bullshit, and it feels like we just took some gigantic steps backward.

Let's hope it improves, I don't see how it gets much worse than it was on Sunday.

We HAVE taken HUGE steps backwards, and the longer he and his inept little posse are here bilking Lerner out of millions the further backwards we will continue to go. People can and will deny that and that's whatever, have it it I guess but you'll quickly find out. All I gotta say is it took ONE game and already Shurmur Soft is bouncing back at forth at the podium in a pool of sweat while scratching his head and inferring the other team is a cheater. Even HE knows he's in over his head, even if his little fanclub doesn't.

Ahhh well, I will at least be entertained by this clusterfuck in one regard, waiting to see if the egomaniac running the team throws his little buddy under the bus or goes down with him. Either way should provide entertainment.

Btw, anyone catch that Dallas Defense last night? Aggressive and tough as a motherfucker. I certainly was wrong about Rob Ryan, you give him some talent to work with and he can dial up an awesome defense.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

The lack of touches Hillis got yesterday is CRIMINAL.

He touched the ball 23 times! How many times per game should we give this guy the ball until he wears out midseason?

23 times is criminal? Yeah right. He led the team in both receptions and carries. Come on dude do some howework.

Or did you mean how many time on the 3 yard line? That would make much more sense.

23 times is a lot.