Tom: Tell Us About These Weird TITANS!!

[Thaid_Up]

Originally Posted by Flugel

When we get USED to winning a little more consistently, I'll start to care how pretty the Ws are. What did taking the NY Jets into OT and driving all the way to their 30 yard line get us in the win loss column last year? The paper doesn't have a yaaa but this is an AFC Championship caliber team asterick next to the loss. And the day Hillis embarassed the Ratbirds defense may have had post game commentators sayign this wasn't the same old Browns; but the bottom line credit was a loss.

I don't care HOW we get these wins right now. Just get em. Those of of us old enough to remember Brian Sipe could sometimes witness a very forgettable first 58 minutes of football flipping the switch the last time we had the football. THAT was strikingly similar to what we saw McCoy doing to Miami last week. Keep in mind though, if our defense didn't play ball all the while our offense was working on its wake up call - we wouldn't have been in position to win at the end.

Based on where we've been for quite some time, it's hard to feel like our fanbase needs to feel guilty for a win without a pretty ribbon on top. We're dangerously close to combing YMCAs for a Right Tackle while Pashos is cashing paychecks. We're about 1 more draft volume and free agency period from being able to handle injury and depth issues IMO. The reason we don't look like Pittsburgh or Baltimore is because while we didn't have a football team in 1996, 1997 and 1998 - they CONTINUED adding draft volumes of a minimum of 9-10 guys. THEN, we got our team back and they continued to draft at least 9-10 guys while our draft volumes of keepers weren't adding up to competance from the front office. Improving competance and draft volume is why we see Tom Heckert drafting a Jabaal Sheard in round 2 instead of knee jerking for Robert Quinn in round 1. And did I mention, we ADDED a first round pick for the 2012 draft while trading down for Phil Taylor? If you look at Trent Cole off the edge in Philly or DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin fetching passes - Heckert is pretty damn good where we need him to be in this era.

+1 Couldn't have said it better. Should make for a nice unified locker room.

Defense: "No problem, guys, we'll play 60 minutes and wait until you kick it in gear at the end."

Offense: Umm ok

[DeadWombat]

Oh, I'll definitely agree that Heckert has been a veritable godsend for this team. The difference in our drafting regimen and our influx of new talent has been practically NIGHT AND DAY compared to Savage's drafting and Mangini's debacle of a draft with Kokinis.

Night and day.

And that's the one thing that really gives me hope for this team because I feel that regardless of whether or not we're a good team right now, we're building talent and we're bound to get better. And its so very evident in just after two years. We are starting EIGHT players from heckert's two drafts so far. That's 4 new starters a year. A lot of of these starters are, without a doubt, total playmakers: Haden and Taylor most prominently. And many of the other picks Heckert brings in at least are finding a place on the depth chart and stay on the roster. Some of them even see solid play time.

Compare this to Savage's drafting is laughable. Comparing to Mangini and Kokinis's draft is even more so.

Actually, just for shits and giggles, let's compare that last one. Okay, its 2009. We got Alex Mack... woo. He's the only one that would start on any other team, and the only one playing at the level we would expect for where he was drafted. MoMass is our number 1 WR out of necessity, not due to his talent. On another team, he'd stick somewhere on the depth charts, but you know what? You don't draft for depth in the middle of the second round. We kept Robo from the top of the 2nd round who hasn't had a catch in 3 games, and Maiava, who never sees a lot of play time. That's it.

In total, we brought in 11 players from that draft, once you include all the Jets cast-offs we got for trading down for Mack. Of those 11 players, we have 2 players starting for us, and 2 guys hanging around on the depth chart. The rest have been cut. And that's the turnover from only 2 years. I wouldn't be surprised to see Robo and/or Maiava be cut by next year as well.

I'd dig deeper and look at older drafts but my brain hurts too much to think about it.

Regardless, there's one thing I'm sure of, and it's that we're bringing in lots of talent through Heckert. God bless that man.

____________

On the subject of "I dont care how we win as long as we do it."... I can understand where you're coming from. But if we win against shitty teams while looking ugly and almost losing while doing it, that tells me we're not that good. It tells me that the win was not earned by us, but we got it because the other team was so incompetent that they gave the win away. Like that Miami game.... in all honesty, we deserved to lose that game. What saved us was a miracle TD drive, followed by 4 incompetent Henne pass plays when they only needed a few yards (WTF happened to their run game?). When we play like that, I just see it as more of a fluke that we won, and if we were going against a better team, we should lose. See, a team like Miami can win a few games every once in a while. But good teams win consistently, and that's what I'd rather have.

Now, if we somehow continue to win, even against better teams... then you're right: I wont care how ugly we look. Because if we can continue this streak of winning, and do it consistently, then it shows that we DO have what it takes to win, and we're doing it not because the other team is just woefully incompetent, but because we out-played them.

I wanna see a good football team. I want that more than us winning against shitty teams and barely so.

[Alo]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Improving competance and draft volume is why we see Tom Heckert drafting a Jabaal Sheard in round 2 instead of knee jerking for Robert Quinn in round 1.

I'm very happy with how Heckert worked the draft; that was the case even before these guys proved to be beastly.

But picking Quinn wouldn't at all be a "knee jerking" move. Sheard's outplaying him right now, but Quinn's putting it together: he had four pressures and three QB hits in the Ravens game. Sheard probably was a better value pick, but we'll see who's better after they fully tap into their potential.

[Brown Warrior]

Yeah, I have a gut Robert Quinn's gonna be a very good playah.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Alo

I'm very happy with how Heckert worked the draft; that was the case even before these guys proved to be beastly.

But picking Quinn wouldn't at all be a "knee jerking" move. Sheard's outplaying him right now, but Quinn's putting it together: he had four pressures and three QB hits in the Ravens game. Sheard probably was a better value pick, but we'll see who's better after they fully tap into their potential.

I actually think Quinn CAN become a good football player based on the combination of fitness and LIKING football enough to prioritize it. Guys like Tamba Hali, Cameran Wake, James Harrison and even James Hall show us you don't have to be immediate to be successful. That said, picking this player at #6 overall based on harassment of OTs from Duke, Citadel, GA Southern, East Carolina, and Wake Forest COULD very well be setting him up for very tough/unfair criticism from our impatient media and fanbase. LT's in the NFL are usually the best athletes on the oline; so I felt like there was going to be a learning curve with Robert Quinn just as there was with Chris Long from the same college conference for the specific opponent calibers I exemplified. The reason we can think of Julius Peppers or even Shawn Merriman (prior to dirty urine) so instantly is because of how infrequently that conference has thrown the NFL instant pass rush stars off the edge. And that's where it is critical to understand the context of this entire Quinn debate in terms of the immediacy of difference making expected from a #6 overall draft pick.

A couple years ago, there was some varied interest in Everett Brown from Florida State due to his 13.5 sacks as a senior. Thoughts ranged anywhere from mid round 1 to late round 2. Irregardless, he was just in Nashville working out/auditioning for an NFL paycheck about 3 weeks ago or so. Not sure if anyone hired the guy yet. Point IS some positions like WR and outside pass rushers aren't always immediate emergences jumping levels especially when new environments have alot of depth issues and patchwork going on all around them. How many times was James Harrison cut in his first 3 years? He was an undrated rookie in 2002 where he didn't get his first 3 injury-induced NFL starts until the end of 2005. Understanding that, he didn't WIN a starting job in camp until season #4 (2006). That 4 year emergence process is the equivalent length of a first NFL contract that would NOT have benefitted a team needing an immediate impact like Cleveland IMO. That's why I wrote there might have been better places for Quinn than Cleveland and used "knee jerk" for the applicability of #6 overall.

Again, that doesn't mean Quinn can't eventually be successful in the right environment. I'm starting to really believe he can be. Because we're talking about the upper half of round 1, I can't promise the St Louis media/fanbase will be fair in noticing that the position Quinn was drafted to upgrade had 10.5 sacks via James Hall in 2010. The GOOD news for Robert Quinn is he is going to learn to play the run sooner than later judging by how many leads their defense has been asked to protect thus far. Understanding how many upper first round disappointments the DE position has yielded in the NFL over the years, I think we were VERY fortunate to land Sheard where we got him in round 2.

IMO, our biggest challenges teamwide are the growing pains of experience and new chemistries beginning. 2 new systems on both sides of the ball with a whole bunch of new players without 1 OTA. We've been far worse than starting 2-2. Meanwhile those Rams that drafted 3 WRs and added popular FA Sims-Walker aren't allowed to use injury excuses any more than we were allowed to excuse 3 QBs in walking boots, 2 WRs with concussions or 4 dislocated toes on the only receiver DCs feared deep. And then when 2 injuries came to the first 2 RTs last year as well as 2 injuries to the first 2 RGs - we headed right back to the same John St Clair we had hoped we upgraded. The good news was we were reminded that ALL teams have injuries. The BAD news was not all teams had the same piss poor draft volumes we had from 1999-2008 (after 3 years of no drafting at all). If anyone sees that as equipped to handle injury I definitely need some tutoring there. This year we added a first round pick to 2012 while our young players are learning to work together. The ONLY thing I am disappointed about was neglecting the priority of RT when we had a decent slew of free agents that would have had a yes price here. That way, the reliability of Pashos' wear and tear wouldn't hold us hostage 1 more day. At LBer, I think we'll be okay as soon as Titus Brown can move D'Qwell Jackson outside. I've certainly been wrong before and way more times than I wanted to be.

[Brown Warrior]

Good to see you, Thomas. Lotta love and support moving your way through the Interwebs, I know.

WR, like QB, seems to be changing a little as a draft prospect: Both are contributing right away. Jones and Green certainly are. Dez certainly did before the injury (which might be an issue), as did Mike Williams and Jordan Shipley.

High school kids are playing passing league all offseason and running pro style offenses now... and the NFL is looking more and more like the NCAA's various forms of spread offenses. All the gaps are closing.