Browns Road trip to San Fran this week

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

I would say tossing in 3-4 teams when I specifically said 4-3 WSLBs is "skewing," right? No possible way to disagree with that, correct?

Alright let me try to spell this out for you. The 3-4 WILB is the exact same position as the 4-3 WLB. What you are asking for in an attempt to appear slightly less wrong is the same as asking to exclude all 3-4 Strong Safeties in a debate about Safeties because they're not in a 4-3 alignment. They are still a Safety.

In this case they are still a WLB, their responsibilities and their use are the exact same, the only difference is instead of being called an OLB they are called an ILB because they have a DE beside them playing stand up. When teams mix in 4-3 looks the WILB stays in the same position with the exact same duties, only a tiny fraction of the name changes.

3-4 WILB's count when discussing WLB's as do 3-4 SILB's when discussing SAM linebackers. They are the same fucking thing. A.J. Hawk, DeMeco Ryans, Karlos Dunlap and Rocky McIntosh were all drafted by the teams they play for as "WSLB" in the 4-3.

And yeah, sorry, FA's count as well because they show where their original teams went looking for a premier WLB. The first round. Over. And over. And over. And over again. As well as for MLB's, ILB's, SLB's and 3-4 rush OLB's. 'Cause well linebacker is a premium, premier position.


Btw, it has nothing to do with not getting along with you. You say shit without thinking or knowing and then try to backtrack. I was trying to HELP YOU with that post you're trying to escape bro, I was trying to teach you something about Defense. Your "you can't count 3-4 guys" shows that you need the help getting this Defense thing down. Stop trying to spin bro and let me help teach you.

[Alo]

Not sure why you'd include 3-4 inside backers in the category: the skillset required to play the position isn't the same as the one for a 4-3 will. At the same time, the "team that drafted them" distinction isn't a good one -- se went over the same thing when discussing QBs.

Also, some of the players have been mistakenly identified as 4-3 weakside backers. For example, Mathias Kiwanuka (1st round DE/LB) plays Sam. Their weakside guy is Michael Boley: a former 5th rounder but also someone that the Giants dished out a lot of money to bring in via free agency (5 years, $25M, $11M guaranteed).

Boley's a good example of why the answer here is complicated. A lot of small, athletic linebackers like Boley slide on draft day. For that reason, you can get some nice mid/late round hits, like the Eagles appear to have done with Brian Rolle.

At the same time, 4-3 Will is a big playmaking position, so a very good one is extremely valuable. Drafting one in the first or spending big money on a vet isn't at all a bad move. UNC LB Zach Brown will go in the top half of the first because of it.

[Masters]

LB is no different than any other position when talking draft. You can find talent at any position anywhere in the draft (QB, WR, DE, LB, etc.). If you want top potential talent you have to take them in the first two rounds. That's where the "premire" talent supposedly is.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Alo

Not sure why you'd include 3-4 inside backers in the category: the skillset required to play the position isn't the same as the one for a 4-3 will.

Because a 4-3 WLB and a 3-4 WILB are the same thing, then again what would I know? I only played both positions for 4 years in High School and 3 years in a local football league.

Originally Posted by Alo

Also, some of the players have been mistakenly identified as 4-3 weakside backers. For example, Mathias Kiwanuka (1st round DE/LB) plays Sam.

My bad then.

[Brown Warrior]

Since this is my parting debate, I just want to be really clear on my point:

1. Oz asked about where we'd draft other positions if we went QB/WR in one. I said an average draft position for starting WSLBs in the 4-3 is like top of 4th. I'd done some research when we announced the switch to this formation and I remembered it being in that area.

2. Because we're discussing DRAFTING a WSLB here, not signing one, I only wanted to look at 4-3 defenses that found their starting 4-3 WSLB in the actual draft... not through free agency. It's the same methodology I used the first time.

3. The number changed from 3.7 to 3 based on some player movement (like Boley, a 5th, leaving Atlanta for the Giants).

4. The fact is this: Looking at where 4-3 teams find their starting WSLB... IN THE DRAFT, which is what we're discussing... the average draft slot is exactly 3.

5. Masters, some positions (like QB, left tackle, pass rusher) are more "first round-centric" than others... and 4-3 WSLB doesn't rank very high. We went over that ESPN article a million times. I actually think THEY took it from what used to be called Pro Football Focus, now Football Focus.

The point you and Alo both made -- that elite players at any position are more often found in earlier rounds -- is fine... but the point Bronx and I have made is true as well: It's about value. You're chances of finding a starting WSLB in round 3 are way better than finding a starting QB in round 3, statistically speaking.

I really shouldn't have posted again because it's futile... but I in no way "twisted" anything the first or second time I looked at this and so I was obviously not taken to any woodsheds. I'll be leaving with no idea whatsoever where that is or what it looks like!

Best to everybody.

[golfer704u]

It's NOT the same methodology, if a guy was drafted in round 1, he was drafted in round 1. just because he moved on to another team, that doesn't discount the fact he was drafted in round 1.

but whatever.

[Bronx Cheer]

Masters,

So you are saying we should look ahead and draft Pontbriand's replacement with Atlanta's first this year?

Just kidding, but you must admit that positional value has impact on draft position. There is a distinction between having the best RG in the game and the best LT. Thus, a four star LT prospect often gets drafted higher than a five star RG prospect. I am not a draft master like Alo, but I think the notion that you can get "starter" level talent at certain positions later in the draft versus other positions is non-controversial.

Agree about the drafted vs. FA thing here not making much sense for WSLB (top WSLBs become available in FA while other positions get franchised).

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Bronx Cheer

Masters,

So you are saying we should look ahead and draft Pontbriand's replacement with Atlanta's first this year?

Just kidding, but you must admit that positional value has impact on draft position. There is a distinction between having the best RG in the game and the best LT. Thus, a four star LT prospect often gets drafted higher than a five star RG prospect. I am not a draft master like Alo, but I think the notion that you can get "starter" level talent at certain positions later in the draft versus other positions is non-controversial.

Ofcourse it has an impact. but if you look at the actual data, the one position being discussed actually grades out higher than Shep says it does. it's not a 1st round grade. but he had it 3rd to early 4th. where it aveages out more to late second early 3rd.

[Masters]

LT and QB, come mainly out of the 1st round for the simple reality of supply and demand. There aren't as many top talent players at that position each year. Point still is, regardless of position, if you want the best talent at a given position you are going to invest high in the draft for them.

You can find a DE outside of the first round. But much like LB, CB, Saftey, etc. if you want the primere talent/potential you are going to take one high .

Jarred Allen 4th rd.
Chris Clemons (UDFA)
Charles Johnson 3rd rd.
Robert Mathis 5th rd.
Justin Tuck 3rd rd.
Trent Cole 5th rd.

That's just to name a few.

As to the crazy logic about a guys draft position no longer counting because he's not with the original team that drafted him, then that makes Rivers, Kolb, Brees, Eli, and Shuab no longer highly drafted players and their names can never be used in reference to QBs drafted high.

[Bronx Cheer]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Ofcourse it has an impact. but if you look at the actual data, the one position being discussed actually grades out higher than Shep says it does. it's not a 1st round grade. but he had it 3rd to early 4th. where it aveages out more to late second early 3rd.

Understood.

It really would be interesting to have a value for each position across the NFL for sake of comparison. My "completely pulled out of my butt" guestimate would be that, ignoring special teamers, the two lines would have relatively low average draft positions while the secondary and offensive skill positions would be higher. TE and FB would likely be pretty low, too.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Brown Warrior

Since this is my parting debate, I just want to be really clear on my point:

Best to everybody.

Dude you aint going nowhere and ya know it. You can't quit us and we can't quit you. It is what it is and we are what we are.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Bronx Cheer

Masters,

So you are saying we should look ahead and draft Pontbriand's replacement with Atlanta's first this year?

Just kidding, but you must admit that positional value has impact on draft position. There is a distinction between having the best RG in the game and the best LT. Thus, a four star LT prospect often gets drafted higher than a five star RG prospect. I am not a draft master like Alo, but I think the notion that you can get "starter" level talent at certain positions later in the draft versus other positions is non-controversial.

Agree about the drafted vs. FA thing here not making much sense for WSLB (top WSLBs become available in FA while other positions get franchised).

Of course positional value has an impact on draft position, as do a slew of other things. My only point was if you want top/premire potential talent, no matter the position (alright maybe not K, P, or LS, unless your Al David), you have to get them high in the draft. It's simply where the elite talent on paper exists and gets taken. You can find starter level talent for any position later in the draft or early. Heck you can find all pros and HOFs later in the draft, which is why I say on paper above. Just as high drafted "talent" can be out of the league in 3 years.