The MYTH of SF's Offense

[DawgFan]

Originally Posted by Flugel

I think Detroit didn't fully know what they were up against until they were up against SF's D. They challenged EVERY pass including Willis wrestling for the ball with Pettigrew on a TD play the TE had ZERO seperation on. I've seen bits and pieces of them each week and they're pretty damn good Dawgfan. There are some VERY talented corners on that D.

They dusted somebody by a 48-3 margin and I think the losing QB got credited for about 320 yards passing so it's hard to hold that against their defense IMO.

Flugs...they had a perfect storm against ONE team. The other games were all offensively challenged. As for the D, again, if the Browns were giving up 260 yards per game, we would all be screaming about the TERRIBLE pass defense. The fact is, they have given up 28 more 1st downs than us and a MUCH higher 3rd down percentage. If it weren't for some very timely INT's, they would be ranked near dead last in passing defense.

That may be the plan, to challenge for the ball and risk the yardage given up, but again, a lot of what they have done both offensively and defensively is exactly what the Browns did back with DA as QB. Set up by great ST's play, and just work the short field. If a team protects the ball, they are much likely to lose than win, just like those Browns. (remember the great Leigh Boden of that year....he gives up the big one but gets INT's)

[DawgFan]

As for the Detroit game, Detroit started at their own 20 or worse on 11 of 16 drives, SF did so in only 5 of 16.

Detroit had 21 first downs to SF's 14.

But most of all, the game was basically won by a 40 YARD PUNT RETURN with 5 minutes left to the Detroit 35 yard line.

Again, not exactly a juggernaut offense, and they were carved up for nearly 300 passing yards.

I just don't see the dominance. Bend but don't break only lasts so long.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Flugs...they had a perfect storm against ONE team. )

I hope you're right Dawgfan. I'm sort of clinging to these games in defining this opponent on deck here:

SF 13 Cincy 8
SF 48 Tampa 3
SF 25 Detroit 19

All 3 of those teams have at least 4 wins right? Detroit was as hot of an offense as it gets playing in front of a reved up home crowd and they shut it down on them especially in the 2nd half. Don't forget Alex Smith fumbled the ball away to Detroit and he gave them an INT as well. If they didn't have Alex Smith playing Santa Claus to Detroit - that wasn't going to finish nearly as close as it did.

I hope you're right that I'm overrating the crap out of SF's defense. 1 good thing on your side of this debate is that Seattle scored 17 points on SF.

Anyway, I usually go into the weekend with my homer hat on thinking we have a good chance to win and the game face is easy. This week is alot more challenging to do that. I've been reminding myself we weren't supposed to be on the same field with New England, New Orleans and the NY Jets last year. We won 2 of those and fumbled in OT at the opponent 30 yard line. That's better than we do when we're favored so maybe I'll use that to get my game face on.

[Vegasdogg]

Originally Posted by Flugel

I've been reminding myself we weren't supposed to be on the same field with New England, New Orleans and the NY Jets last year.

Funny season. We were supposed to be on the field vs BUF, JAX and CIN.

[Sez.EJ]

Latest Browns RapidReports

	Oct. 29, 2011 5:21 p.m. - by Marty Gitlin - 3 keys to a Browns win: No. 1 -- Contain Gore 3 keys to a Browns win: No. 1 -- Contain 49ers RB Frank Gore: The Browns are stronger against the pass than run, but they against the 49ers they must also defend the run. Their young, physical linemen are capable of playing the Niners' strong offensive line to a standstill, but they need help from the linebackers and safeties because Gore must be gang tackled. If he gets into the secondary, the Browns are doomed. Browns RapidReports
	Oct. 29, 2011 5:18 p.m. - by Marty Gitlin - 3 keys to a Browns win: Establish the pass 3 keys to a Browns win: No. 2 -- Establish the pass first: QB Colt McCoy needs better pass protection and to eliminate a serious case of happy feet to emerge from his doldrums. If he can't find his accuracy and his receivers can't separate, the Browns are doomed to deal wth eight defenders in the box and an impossible situation for the ground attack. Browns RapidReports
	Oct. 29, 2011 5:17 p.m. - by Marty Gitlin - 3 keys to a Browns win: Shut down the TEs 3 keys to a Browns win. No. 3 -- Shut down the tight ends: The San Francisco TEs are more dangerous than its wide receivers. Safety T.J. Ward will be greatly responsible for Vernon Davis, but cornerbacks Joe Haden and Sheldon Brown must control him when he lines up wide. The Browns don't score enough to withstand quick strikes for scores. Browns RapidReports Pretty good top 3.. Gore and Vernon Davis are both Beasts... At least they only used the word doomed 2 x. This is easily the best team we have played this year.. may by THE best team we have on our shedule all year.. Our Run D which has been very average against bad teams gets a real test this week. The OL better be ready.. I think they started blitzingn already.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Vegasdogg

Funny season. We were supposed to be on the field vs BUF, JAX and CIN.

I know - that sucked!!! Isn't that the Browns though? ANY time they're SUPPOSED to beat someone - they don't. And I'm not just talking last year with that by any means.

Here and now, I think we gotta get everybody past last year. The changes made will benefit all parties regardless of how soon it all unfolds. This pertains to Mangini as well - I don't think a hollow front office with 4 draft picks, 3 french doves, 2 goofey QBs and a partridge in a pear tree was ready for success within 2 years. I can't hold ANY of that against Shurmur, whom Mangini once wanted to interview as an OC. Our DEFENSE has improved by going with Dick Jauron over Captain Kangaroo at DC. It's hard to say what was more inexecusable - staying with a disinterested Eric Wright or staying in the huddle vrs the no huddle. This defense is about 3 good players away from some really good things IMO. Maybe all they really need is a little more experience together with 3 new starters on the dline, Jackson returning like a brand new starter, and Young.

Ditka had an interesting quote "if you stay in the past, you never get to the present. It's called present because it's a gift." LOVE that guy. Too many franchises today want the buddy and coddling system under the umbrella of "treated like men." Hard to treat people like men if they would rather play like girl scouts. It's a 2 way street. Before this gets completely turned into flag football - sometimes a team STILL needs a Ditka cleat up its fanny. I think Shurmur has some good cop bad cop in place with the staff and rightfully so. Ray Rhodes isn't the type to "thatta boy" head up the ass syndrome.

Shurmur is doing his best within the outcomes of a lockout. It would have been nice if he could have WORKED with the team during the bye week and had some OTA time. Since we don't have an AJ Green open 24/7 - this isn't anything like Cincy. We gotta find a watered down imitation or at least a goto guy for our QB in the 2 seconds he seems to have. As the league is progressing toward flag football, the AFC North has Titanic Icebergs in Baltimore, Cincy and Pittsburgh that want to make our passing game look like the Edmund Fitzgerald. Understanding this, putting Marecic on the field in lieu of backs that can actually get outside of a pass rush is like adding a heavy anchor to it all. Our backs in 1986 caught 120-122 passes where we rarely ever wasted Mack on BLOCKING blitzers. Thank God!

[DawgFan]

The big fear here seems to be the TE and RB:

Cinci has Gresham, only 1 few catches, 40 fewer yards, and the same number of TD's as Davis of SF. He had 6 catches for 58 yards and a TD vs the Browns. In other words he did well, but not a world beater against the Browns, and the D has gotten better since then.

Oakland had Darren McFadden. He had 20 carries for 91 yards and a TD. Again, nice, but well below his average...and he better per carry than Gore.

My point is, we have faced competition with these types of weapons, and our D has stood the test. I think it all comes down to our O vs their D...and they don't have a great passing D, so we may see some breakout here. I know MoMass is out, but that may actually work in our favor as we will actually have some speed (Mitchell) on the field to open things up.

Also, don't be surprised to see a lot of max protection (2 out of Smith/Moore/Watson) in the game. With all 3 producing in the passing game, you won't know who is going out in route, and it will help slow down the SF pass rush. Throw in the fact that Ogbannaya is a great pass catcher and Hardesty seems to have gotten it again...and the short routes will pull the D in for a long one (with max protect again) to Mitchell.

I just think the matchups are more in the favor of the Browns. I know what has transpired to this point doesn't really show that, but 2 of our losses came on either a fluke play or ST's gaffes, and the other was just an offensive torture fest for us.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

The big fear here seems to be the TE and RB:

Cinci has Gresham, only 1 few catches, 40 fewer yards, and the same number of TD's as Davis of SF. He had 6 catches for 58 yards and a TD vs the Browns. In other words he did well, but not a world beater against the Browns, and the D has gotten better since then.

But if you add Benson's rushing yards to the TE combo - we learn why they sealed the deal. You also made it a point to leave out the TN game, which clearly defines why some of us are worried about SF's TE and RB. Chris Johnson's ONLY good game so far this year was against the Browns, which set up their TEs via playaction taking our pass defense to summer school. Their QB only had to complete 10 passes because 3 of them were TDs, while their defense scored on a pic 6 and Chris Johnson ran for over 100 yards. The overall stats didn't look brutal; but the game wasn't competitive at all.

Football is all about matchups so Seattle 's backup QB and backup RBs with the mind of Pete Carroll isn't going to be an apples to apples comparison to Frank Gore and Vernon Davis behind the mind of Jim Harbaugh. While I'm glad Indy resorted to Barnabus Collins at QB, I can't make that the rule. We got treated to the winless Dolphins as well even though Henne was enjoying his best completion percentages of the season and maybe his career thus far.

I DO admire your confidence but we can't edit out inconvenient realities that unfolded. At the end of the day, I sincerely hope your confidence beats my pessimism. You rarely ever see me this worried about an opponent. On top of that, I saw last week's post game coach presentation to the players where he gave them Tuesday off in a short week the Browns gotta travel to the West Coast. Our margin of error is tiny this week so hopefully everyone is on the same page in the passing game on both sides of the ball and our oline protects the QB.

[Sez.EJ]

I am with ya Flugel.. and San Fran is a much better team than Tenn. We are in their house on the west coast.. It could be a blowout. I sure hope not. I want to see us step up. San Fran favored by as much as 9 1/2 right now. If I were a betting man I would take San Fran minus the points. Sorry guys.. I just see this as a potential disaster game. San Fran is coming in ultra confident after knocking of the unbeaten Detroit last week. Doesn not matter how they did it.. the got it done in the end. I think the ONLY way we win this game..is if we get turnovers and some big special teams plays. I don't exactly see the offense carrying the day against a VERY good defense. So it's a longshot IMO.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Meanwhile, SF has played teams with good passing games and poor rushing games, and only average .3 y/c less than the Browns.

Tell me out of these teams who has a good RB?
Seattle - ranked 31st (we held them to less than SF)

Lynch who is a good RB and fortunately CLE did not have to see due to a scratch in warm up

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Dallas - ranked 12th, but only after that rookie tore it up for 253 last week

Felix Jones is a good RB. The fact that DAL passes too much doesn't make Jones not a good RB.

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Cincinnati - ranked 21st (we held them to less)

Cedric Benson is a good RB. CLE did not hold Cincy to less. Cincy put up 139 yards on the ground against CLE compared to just 79 against SF.

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Philadelphia - ranked #1 and got them for over 100 yards and over 5 y/c

McCoy is a really good RB.

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Tampa Bay - ranked 22nd

Blount is a good RB

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Detroit - ranked 27th

Best is a good RB, but probably the weakest in the above list.

Originally Posted by DawgFan

So, the only team that runs the ball well that they faced put over 100 on them in only 20 carries, and is known as a passing first team.

Philly has been a passing team first in the past, not this year (why they have 30 attempts per game). I agree with the idea SF to date hasn't faced a lot of teams who are running the ball well or that much. As I previously noted half the teams SF has played are at the bottom of the league in rush yards, attempts, and rush TD. Their rush D may be a bit over rated, just as CLE pass D might be.

[Sez.EJ]

I don't see where we can look at any of the above teams listed and say.. "HEY.. our running game blows them away"... to where we expect massive success against SanFran. The passing game will have to make it happen. Good luck.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

I don't where we can look at any of the above teams listed and say.. "HEY.. our running game blows them away"... to where we expect massive success against SanFran. The passing game will have to make it happen. Good luck.

Great job Sez and Masters!

SF is only giving up 74 yards a game rushing while we seem like we're averaging about 2.9 yards a carry against teams that aren't as good as SF defensively.

I'd like to see Greco play 1 more week at RG...