QB question for you guys

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Masters

Great stuff and so true imo.

I can think of one example where it looked like McCoy basically said "I am going to trust my read and just go with it". In the JAX game there was the pass to Little where he saw the zone with the LB under and the saftey over Little. He put the ball right in the spot, Little turns late, seemed suprised the ball was there, but for a change caught it. I couldn't believe Little was late looking for the ball and looked suprised the pass was right there. To me it goes to show Little doesn't understand coverage yet. If your McCoy and you see this all the time, how do you trust to make those throws and throw guys open/throw to spots? Had Little not got his head around (which I was suprised he did) that ball goes right to the saftey at no real fault of McCoys.

Great point! I forgot about that one. In the stands I was actually almost already yelling at Little for dropping it because he didn't look soon enough. I was shocked he caught it. Then again I think he was too.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Great point! I forgot about that one. In the stands I was actually almost already yelling at Little for dropping it because he didn't look soon enough. I was shocked he caught it. Then again I think he was too.

I was already yelling at him for not getting his head turned and it going as a pick because of him.....lol

[Legendary]

For Colt I think he is a good quarterback who is trying his best for awful struggling Cleveland Browns. I believe he will be much better next season. Put Colt in Green Bay or Dallas Cowboys or New Orleans Saints he would be much better QB and more effective. It is like a racing driver with a crap car. He could perform and improve the car, but if the car is not competitive enough the driver will not be able to win race that easily.

I like Colt.

I say this on UK Brown Backers -

I say sort out the offensive line, wide receivers, and maybe a Running back if Peyton Hillis leave. Let Colt develop in next 24 games (this and next season) to see if he is the man. I think we should recruit hot QB in 2013 not 2012. (but if there is no good QB in 2013 and then 2014). Sort out the offence, replace special team coach and hire offensive co-ordinator and find some good linebacker to do pass rushing. Then build on to it in 2013. I think Colt can make it but we need to make sure we give him every opportunity and improve the team. If he isn't the answer then we can recruit hot QB when the time is right.

[hiwaygal]

Originally Posted by jason j

But here's the thing, watch what happens if a safety slags into that underneath position. He'll (Jennings) pick up that safety and press the vertical... or one of my favorites, he'll press that vertical to the outside of his man defender guide him high and (with just the slightest nudge of a hand on his hip) guide him by to the outside and skinny-post his vertical route.

Yep...I can see why your wife thinks you're a little nuts!!!


You also put into simple words something that makes so much sense to me. With the Aaron Rodgers/Greg Jennings example. A lot of their success comes from their relationship and trust. They KNOW what the other is going to do. That comes not just from practicing with a guy once in awhile but REALLY knowing exactly how they are going to react. That only comes with time. And Colt and our guys need more of that.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by jason j

Why does it work?
1.) Aaron Rodgers knows where to go with the football.
2.) Greg Jennings knows where Aaron Rodgers should go with the football.
3.) Aaron Rodgers knows that Greg Jennings knows where he's going to go with the football
4.) and last Aaron Rodgers knows that Greg Jennings is going to beat the man defender.
5.) Oh... and Everyone knows Greg's going to catch the ball you throw him... there's that.
-jj

All good stuff but was Aaron Rodgers playing or watching games when he was in his 2nd season? 3rd season? Because we have a QB that got a new playbook after his 8th start, which asks him to deprogram alot of the learnings as a rookie without 1 OTA - it isn't the continuity and talent pool Rodgers inherited 1 or 2 seasons after Favre had GB in an NFC Championship Game. Therefore, let's simplify it to page 1 of this year's playbook featuring the slant patterns into the heavy traffic of 9 men in the box. When it is a designed slant pattern and Dan Fouts is saying the Browns aren't running patterns downfield during the first 3 quarters, let's put ourselves in the shoes of the QB. His job is to execute the 3 step drop on the slant, which means on that 3rd step (the plant) he's trying to step into his throw. Adding to the challenge of throwing at targets crammed into an overpopulated phone booth is that guys like Lauvao, Pinkston, Hick or Cousins were whiffing upfront. Good luck stepping into THOSE throws. Therein lies the problem IMO, aside from Little looking like he got his hands from a rock quarry - we're not stretching a defense deep at all like Green Bay can/will.

Having said that, we tried to go somewhat vertical recently with Norwood vrs Cincy. On that first scoring drive McCoy actually threw 2 passses to Norwood that should have been TDs IMO (at least he caught them both and one was a TD). In one of the games we did a flea flicker/reverse pass where it bought better pass protection for the QB. AFTER Fouts shared concerns he didn't see 1 route downfield vrs SF, Cribbs went deep in the 4th quarter and caught a TD pass down the left sideline. The deep throw to Greg Little in the end zone was caught by the athlete (DB) who opted to jump for the ball, which isn't anything like throwing the exact same pass to AJ Green for a TD elsewhere. Therein lies a deeper problem where defenses don't feel we're going to TRY to challenge them downfield. You can't throw deep if you aren't sending anyone deep so the defense has no risk factor for cramming at least 9 guys in the box so that stayed the hurdle we aren't contesting well enough. Sometimes, you're only as good as the game plan handcuffing you. If it IS personnel, then you replace Lauvao when he whiffs on a 340 pound target right infront of him or you get a WR you KNOW will catch those passes bouncing off Little's number. Othwerwise, we show up to a dawgfight without any willingness to throw a punch that can hurt the opposition.

The GOOD NEWS is if we use the RIGHT personnel with our youg QB (on playbook 2 already) we score TDs when we've thrown to Cribbs downfield or in the corner of the end zone. Little has the most reps on the team and all that has done for Cleveland is make them the team with the most drops in the NFL as Steve Tasker summarized that as it flashed on the TV screen. His comment was those are drive killers and they make the QB's life miserable. Most QBs need a reliable goto guy. The guy Shurmur is FORCING on McCoy is a guy who doesn't know how to catch a football. I've read some interesting theories on it all BUT does anyone really think AJ Green needs to be coached up on how to catch the ball or run those elite/precise routes that made him the #1 WR off the draft board? Little was the 4th WR off the board and he can't even catch a cold in cold and flu season. I guess he can be coached on how to run better routes in a phone booth per the game plans for much of the season. We're STILL running slant patterns into the traffic jam of 9 men in the box so I don't know how coaching beyond sending people beyond the dink and donkages Fouts was . This seems like a personnel issue. Speaking of GB, when James Jones was dropping too many very catchable passes from Aaron Rodgers last year, Jordy Nelson was awarded his playing time because of the broken trust issues with QB and coach. NOW it was on Jones to restore in 2011 or Randall Cobb would also move ahead of him. Jones improved. IMO, we should sit Greg Little on the first signs he won't be catchign the ball today. For some reason I couldn't see Mike McCarthy or a Bill Parcells saying - that's okay we'll give you at least 4 more mulligans today before replacing you with a PROFESSIONAL. We've been so snakebitten that we tend to forget these guys are supposed to be PROS. Is there another city that has to worry about this same crud every freakin year?

[hammertime]

Originally Posted by mario

When the Cleveland Browns drafted Colt McCoy in the third round of last years draft, what we seen in the college film, combine, and pre-draft workouts is what we got.

What we got is a third round quarterback who doesn't have the abilities to individually put the team on his shoulder and lead us to victory like the elite quarterbacks in the league can (Big Ben, Tom Brady, Aaron, Drew, Manning) can, but we got a quarterback that with the right system, a very strong supporting cast, and a solid defense, can keep you in the games.

Colt McCoy doesn't have impressive physical attributes aside from a little bit of quickness and ability for moving away from pressure if its coming from his left side (he routinely walks into the pressure on the right as we have seen week after week). He doesn't always find the wide open receivers (especially RBs coming out of the backfield as I noticed today on a few plays), and he doesn't have an incredibly strong arm, although I feel he can make most of the throws from what I have observed.

What McCoy does have is a short memory, he doesn't seem to be all that bothered when he makes a bad play or the offense is halted on a drive. He provides good leadership, and his teammates like him.

I believe he can be a good quarterback, but he isn't the kind of player who will be good simply because he is good. He will need an above adequate supporting cast, and the right system. It is apparent he is still far more comfortable in the shotgun (which sort of diminishes the running game, not that we have one this year anyways), and I believe our coaching staff needs to do like Carolina and Denver are doing: DESIGNING the game plan to the QBs strengths to mask the weaknesses they have.

With that being said, unless a stud falls in our lap, I say the team should stick with McCoy, but not be shy to kick the tires on other QBs they seriously think can do better.

i quoted this again just because it's the fairest evaluation i seen yet.

It rings true every time we watch the guy. It basically means we suck right now.

We will suck until ALL the peices are in place or replace 1 peice. A stud QB isn't going to fall into our lap either. I'm starting to think (haha) that there is the prototype QB needed to compete in the AFC north and McCoy isn't going to hold up to beatings for much more.(neither would a Drew Brees either.)

We can be competetive with one more draft and FA signing season but it is going to be about as fragile as an ecosystem can be, zero margin for error or injury.

Sigh.............................................. ..

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by jason j

I know I don't come around too much anymore... but I get the impression y'all have been debating this for a while now. I'm not here to calm your nerves or feed your fears, but, I can certainly offer an opinion or two regarding the Browns, their approach, and their personnel, as it relates to this argument. And, if you'll permit me a little latitude, I'd like to touch on a couple of the points being put forth.

Ok, let's look at the original question... Do the Browns let it ride with Colt McCoy, or scrap the project at the end of the 2011 season?

Well... what do we know? The offense is, in a word, unsuccessful. The question is what are the logical steps to repair it. And, speaking to the original question, is replacing the quarterback the next best step?

I'm going to go ahead and say no . But that only an answer the practical question about what to do at the close of 2011. It says nothing about the long-term prospects of Colt McCoy, which is really where the original question was heading.

I've realized that the controversy about players like Colt McCoy and many others centers around an ailment the league has been suffering from for some time.

There's a disease permeating football, (actually a few, but let's just deal with this one) that really started about a decade ago. I call it "Positional Idealism." A sprawling collection of draftniks and dullards have unwittingly conspired with bloggers and beat-writers to reduce the myriad approaches and participants in one of the world's most complex sports to a meaningless construct of boiler-plate tactics and player archetypes... The "Elite Quarterback," The "True Left Tackle," The "Shutdown Corner," and on and on... And here's the punchline: It hasn't changed a thing about the game itself - only how it's discussed.

These imaginary concepts have dulled the conversation about the sport to a bullshit binary code of trait absolutes. NFL Arm? Check. Read Defenses? Check.

Read defenses? Check??? Whahhh? Really?

It's even better when you add the gradations. "Elite Arm Strength," And exactly what is the difference between the "quick release" and the "hair trigger release?" Can we just give them numbers? Something entirely arbitrary. He's got 27 arm strength and a 31 release. Is he a quarterback or fucking halfling?

They call Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers "Elite Quarterbacks," yet their approaches, abilities, and methods are demonstrably different. It renders the classification meaningless.

If you want to simplify the conversation, reduce it to the relevant processes. You can break down the passing portion of the quarterback position to two basic processes.

1.) Properly deciding where to throw the ball
2.) Reliably delivering the ball where intended (Ok, and when you intend to)

Everything else is color.

So, back to McCoy. Since no one seems to be concerned with man's "mobility" or "intangibles" (another couple of yes/no boxes folks tend to check or not check when discussing QBs), let's look at that passing game.

1.) Properly deciding where to throw the ball? Eh... I'd call it... about where I'd expect a guy to be after 17-18 starts with a complete change of offensive philosophy in the middle. He's certainly not jumping off the screen. But seems to have a grasp of what he's being asked to do. He's still sort of throwing at receivers. He hasn't shown a great gift for anticipating receivers coming open, or targeting negative spots in coverages to pull his receivers open.

2.) Reliably delivering the ball where intended? Eh (again), He's pretty consistent inside 20 yards. Beyond that, he tends to get less accurate the further he throws. Which is generally true of most quarterbacks... it's just a matter of how much "less accurate." I'd like to get a better sample of him throwing from a stationary position to get a clearer understanding on where his mechanics are breaking down. It's so rare that you see him set up, plant and throw, that it's a kind of tough to get a solid read on what he's doing. His arm slot is a little inconsistent - and that's got to be part of it. But, it's hard to say how much. I'm not a big arm slot guy, but it's very important to pick one and stick with it.

So... when I look at Colt McCoy - NFL Quarterback, I don't have a real problem with him. He looks like a developmental quarterback. But it's not really out of line with what I would consider acceptable quarterback development.

So... what's going on? If someone hired me to fix the Browns' offense, first, have them committed. Second, I fire Mike Wilson. The single negative characteristic that jumps off the screen about the Cleveland Browns is the execution from the wide receivers. The Browns receivers don't demonstrate the most rudimentary skills. Not talent. Skills.

When I see an strong 3x1, with the isolation receiver to the boundary running a slant on pre-snap off-coverage - which at the snap shows a base cover 3 to his side. Then to see him clear the curl-flat defender - the WLB (knowing he's the only receiver on that side) then cave his shoulders to cradle the ball against his body. WTF? Did he think that corner was just going to hang around back there defending grass? Uh... no. There's no one threatening that zone... he's right behind you... oh, wait, he's right in front of you. Jackass!

Was it the fear of the Middle Backer in the hook zone? The guy who's 15 yards away? Right in your line of sight? That guy?

You clear the curl defender, see the Mike backer, reach out and snatch that thing and look to beat the that 1/3 defender to your side - because he's attacking the ball. If he's on your hip, and you can shake him, you've only got the FS in the middle of the field and the Will to beat. I mean it's not like your 4 inches taller than the corner and about 3/10ths faster than the other two.

The point of all that (aside from taking the opportunity to speak sideline jargon in my offseason - a tongue my wife finds both nonsensical and repugnant), is it's a breakdown at the accountability level. The Browns wide receivers catch the ball with their shoulder pads, run themselves into coverage, and generally render themselves non-factors because they're allowed to do it. And it happens over and over and over. You don't get a lot of great shots of it on TV. But the ones you do see are egregious. And it's infuriating.

But the point is, these are skill problems - not ability problems.

Anyway... What does this have to do with Colt McCoy? It damages the empirical sample. I'm not sure he's got any particular limitation that would keep him from becoming a successful quarterback. Does he flutter balls around when he over throws? Yup. Doesn't really bother me. The best quarterbacks are going to miss 2 of 10 passes out of hand anyway. I'm not really concerned how badly... as long as it's not into traffic. Is he late on throws? All the time. So are most young quarterbacks. I'm not really all that concerned.

Overall, he seems bright and undeluded. Two traits that do tend to lead to success in most fields... quarterbacking included. I'm not sure I'd be hasty jump off the Colt McCoy train. And, for God's sake you don't jump the track in hopes you'll catch on with Matt Flynn.

That said, I don't like the crop of free agent receivers out there. Meacham, Colston, and Garcon are about the only one's I'd be interested in... maybe Early Doucet. And Colston will probably want to outearn his reliability. Meacham and Garcon fancy themselves (the ever arbitrary) #1 receivers (and they're probably not going to provide a level of production commensurate with that money). So the best bet may be to target a mid level guy... but that's going to leave a hole. There are a couple of wide receivers in the draft to help balance the offense, and that may be a good place to start fixing the offense. The Browns current record and remaining schedule could land them in the top 12, with plenty of opportunity to find a quality receiver... but that's a topic for another month.

Sorry for the tome... but it seems the whole thing has broken down into irrelevant comparisons... thought I'd muck up the works a bit.

-jj

Actually, this was my favorite post in 2011 as late as 11/30/2011. Note the passion to state how little the receivers helped their QB.

Some of today's discussions were talking about looking off the Safety. Maybe it's just easier with a talent like Kendall Wright that the QB knows he's going to pre-snap; and there's enough film on the Big 12 opponent to know there won't be any zone depth and zone transition discipline from the opponent. That's how you can freeze frame 4-5 defenders in 1 circle jerk zone out of position staring at the back of Kendall Wright's cleats after he ran through them uncontested.

[YtownBacker]

As much as I agree with most of what's in there, the question still is; is he good enough or will he develop into someone good enough? or Is RGII just that much better that you can't afford to pass on him?

jj did a great job of explaining who McCoy is and I also think he did a good job of explaining who RGIII is. I think there are a lot of NFL people that will say that they think Colt has the potential to be a good NFL QB. You will also find a lot of NFL people that say RGIII is an exceptional prospect with some outstanding skills.

The answer to the big question of which way to go lies in how each person defines words like "potential", "prospect", "ceiling", "good enough", "tangibles", "intangibles" and "Value".

What value do you place on the prospect? Is "good enough" really good enough? Is the ceiling of a prospect high enough over what you already have to justify the costs?

Discussions for a lifetime....................................

Stay with a game manager that could develop into a solid game manager or go all in on a prospect that seems to have it all and will cost a ton to get?

One you build a franchise around and the other you have to build a franchise to support.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

As much as I agree with most of what's in there, the question still is; is he good enough or will he develop into someone good enough? or Is RGII just that much better that you can't afford to pass on him?

jj did a great job of explaining who McCoy is and I also think he did a good job of explaining who RGIII is. I think there are a lot of NFL people that will say that they think Colt has the potential to be a good NFL QB. You will also find a lot of NFL people that say RGIII is an exceptional prospect with some outstanding skills.

The answer to the big question of which way to go lies in how each person defines words like "potential", "prospect", "ceiling", "good enough", "tangibles", "intangibles" and "Value".

What value do you place on the prospect? Is "good enough" really good enough? Is the ceiling of a prospect high enough over what you already have to justify the costs?

Discussions for a lifetime....................................

Stay with a game manager that could develop into a solid game manager or go all in on a prospect that seems to have it all and will cost a ton to get?

One you build a franchise around and the other you have to build a franchise to support.

Drew Brees wasn't even a game manager when his 3rd NFL season ended. 100% of San Diego wanted him gone asap for this ELITE QB that was allegedly going to take them places Brees couldn't. And why? He was on a shit team with nobody to make him look good.

I can get fancy using terminology like 9 routes, 7 routes, 4 routes, waggle pass, drag, flag route, or using talking schemes like reach hinge protection or a cup protection or whatever we want to float above casual fan heads to tell everyone we have coaching backgrounds that counted on understanding game film.

The simple point of football remains the team with the most favorable matchups on their side have the better chances of winning. Did Drew Brees simply WAKE UP a better QB in his 4th year? Or did going from 1 attack prong (Tomlinson) to having 3 attack prongs via Tomlinson + Gates + McCardell give him his very first shot at success? Why was he unsuccessful before that? Well, if you take away guitars, amps and Robert Plant from Jimmy Page you never witness one of the best musicians of all time.

Ytown, I GET your message and I LIKE RGIII enough to part with 2 picks. If it gets crazy as a Daniel Snyder can do to this auction - I heard Snyder may drive the auction as high 4-5 picks from John McClain on the radio yesterday. We do that, and he's never going to have the help he'll need here.

Can we afford to trade away more draft volumes like we did to the 2008 and 2009 drafts? Mangini actually added 4 draft picks to the scheduled 4; BUT we didn't have a GM or personnel evaluator employed when EM arrived to do that up the right way.

[Masters]

In Bree's 4th (2004) season McCardel played a total of 7 games (started 6), recorded 31 catches for a grand total 393 yards and 1TD. Gates had already been there for a year and had then started his assent to being the TE weapon he is today after spending his rookie season in 2003 learing to play (LT was drafted in 2001, the same year Brees was drafted).

The 2003 Chargers were 16th in offense (19.6) and 31st in D (27.6/g). The season also had SD starting Flutie for 5 games and seeing action in 7 (essentially yaking around Brees who showed good promiss and progress through his first 15 starts in 2002 and SD went 8-8). That 2003 season saw LT go over 2000 total yards for the second year in a row. That year was also the first year in the rain of AJ Smiths terror. It was also a fan base far from 100% in favor of kicking Brees to the curb, and certainly not what the HC, Marty, wanted done.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Masters

The 2003 Chargers were 16th in offense (19.6) and 31st in D (27.6/g). The season also had SD starting Flutie for 5 games and seeing action in 7 (essentially yaking around Brees who showed good promiss and progress through his first 15 starts in 2002 and SD went 8-8). That 2003 season saw LT go over 2000 total yards for the second year in a row. That year was also the first year in the rain of AJ Smiths terror. It was also a fan base far from 100% in favor of kicking Brees to the curb, and certainly not what the HC, Marty, wanted done.

The fanbase thing is not true. That's just Masters arguing to argue. I'm told fan bases after the year 2000 don't accept QBs drafted after round round who lead teams to the worst record in pro football so why would San Diego fan NOT want a QB first overall when their 2nd round QB had forgettable passer rating and the worst winning percentage of 32 teams? Doesn't sound the least bit consistent with what's popular opinion in OUR fan base after just just 21 starts with 8 from the first playbook and 13 from the next.

Anyway, here's the 2nd and 3rd seasons of Brees leading up to the Chargers being piss poor enough to draft 1st overall in 2004:

Season	Team	G		QBRat	Comp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/G	Y/A	TD	Int		Rush	Yds	Y/G	Avg	TD		Sack	YdsL		Fum	FumL
2002-03	San Diego	16		76.9	320	526	60.8	3284	205.3	6.2	17	16		38	130	8.1	3.4	1		24	180		1	0
2003-04	San Diego	11		67.5	205	356	57.6	2108	191.6	5.9	11	15		21	84	7.6	4.0	0		21	178		5	3

You are correct about the rift starting between Marty and the new GM. Marty DID like Drew Brees in spite of how unpopular it was with the local population. A GM that also had to account for season ticket sales coming off the worst record in football after the 3rd year QB regressed - didn't agree with Marty. He agreed with popular opinion thinking it reflected the customers who put money in the owner's pocket. Therefore, he power played Marty and the team owning the rights to the first overall pick ended up with a QB that said "don't draft me" so then they had to trade Eli for Rivers. A lot of unnecessary effort only to see New Orleans win the Superbowl Trophy San Diego still longs for. Last I knew, San Diego didn't even make the playoffs in 2011. Brees was setting passing records as New Orleans qualified for another post season.

McCardell and Gates were a very big boost. In 2004, Gates had 81 receptions, 55 first downs, 13 TDs and 941 yards. In 7 games, McCardell added 19 first downs to what gates added as well as 31 receptions and we haven't even discussed what Tomlinson added.

In 2005, McCardell had 70 receptions, 50 first downs, 9 TDs and 917 yards +
Gates had 89 receptions, 62 first downs, 10 TD 1101 yards +
Tomlinson added 51 receptions 2 TDs + 16 first downs as well 1462 yards rushing and 18 TDs more

What sucked about that hired help?