Scary Commitments & Moving On thoughts Up-top

[Flugel]

As I watch games weekly, here's some head scratchable concerns I have:

1) Why was it urgent to get Evan Moore a nice contract extension ONLY to see him make cameo appearances each week. Does he get more than 10% of the offensive reps lining up as flanker, slot or wing? He doesn't really play TE unless someone caught him sneaking up to the line of scrimmage and blocking someone.

2) Why was it urgent to get Chris Gocong this so called necessary raise? He might be the worst LBer we have. Pad height always too high, instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night time so he's ALWAYS getting blocked regardless of of whetehr Mitchell looks like Santa's sleigh in reverse or not.

3) Why are we telling Hillis we're too good for negotiating with him? Because we need another major need?

4) Jayme Mitchell. Deep 6 the ego Heckert - he stinks really bad. In the process of Mitchell being Hecket's choice - that put a refreshign attitude like Marcus Benard in the Doghouse here because the WRONG Head Coach also filling in as missing GM decided that was a REAL nice undrafted FA we can give the NFL's version of minimum wage to. Benard led us in sacks in 2010 and it appeared he bulked up to improve his stoutness vrs the run. If it wasn't already better than Wimbley's stoutness vrs the run - I dare say Wimbley would still be here.

5) Are we REALLY stuck watching a WR that can't catch because that's the GM's choice? That's no different than Butch Davis exercising his GM powers to start a lazy Gerrard Warren early on while he's telling other young players and vets they need to EARN their playing time with hustle and productivity. So when he hits a Jax QB after the whistle and gives them a first down - he stays on the field just like Greg Little after and 3rd, 4th and 5th drop. BAD message when it's a guy like Cribbs with 4 TD receptions to Little's 1 TD reception in spite of how many more reps Little has out there. And he SHOULDN'T be frsutrated he's sick of losing? He also got to watch Oakland return a kickoff while the guy replacing Cribbs on that unit was picking his nose.

6) Shawn Lauvao is the SAME story. He doesn't EVER have to show he gets it because he was Heckert's choice on draft day and replacing him a potentially more intelligent and savvy vet like Greco would mean 1 start = lost late round pick next year on the conditions we acquired him under. That's not a win NOW mentality. The POWEWRPLAY of it all from above handcuffs a rookie HC into feelign like we have to stick with Lauvao after he whiffs durign the plays and costs us 15 yards of mindless personal fouls after the play. The reason he and Little REPEAT the same mistakes ad nauseum is there's NO consequences for repeating the mistakes.

7) Why did I ever think Heckert was brilliant for drafting a roster cancer like DeSean Jackson in rd 2 in Philly? My homeristic thought that ALWAYS gets me in trouble later on is this guy nails WR picks (he also drafted Maclin there). MEANWHILE, Philly's current D has a stud like Trent Cole (much like Sheard can become) playing in a WIDE spread front overating the BeJesus out of their LBer Corps taking on the enormous natural running lanes such a formation creates. Philly's LBer Corps I believe Heckert is partly responsible for - looks every bit as bad as OUR LBer Corps vrs the run. I like D'Qwell and think Titus Brown should be somewhere in the mix - he got 1 rep 2 weeks ago and it was a sack so he rarely played much after. Whatever!

8) My biggest worry of all, is a bad diagnosis of what is going wrong can lead to us trading WAY too much future help for a QB that can't change the unwatchable WR Corps unless it's David Copperfield I suppose. The OTHER bad in that is if there are no intentions of trading away the next 10 drafts for Andrew Luck or The Bleach Blonde at USC is we'll REACH a QB that shouldn't be in the upper round 1 up into a status he does not belong at ONLY to find out the same old - "he needs speed on the perimeter and it needs to be guys that can catch the ball." Gee, really? USC has that galore with guys that catch ainbows and outleap defenders ALL the time. In Cleveland, all those same passes are interceptions IF the guards allow him to even throw the ball.

9) How can I feel better about all this - when this was the stuff that was supposed to change in lieu of providing much more of the same?

[Thaid_Up]

Originally Posted by Flugel

9) How can I feel better about all this - when this was the stuff that was supposed to change in lieu of providing much more of the same?

Damn, Flugs, why don't you just shoot me! Great post as usual. Have zero answers for 1-8 and my #9 answer is more desperation than reason. I'm pasting from another thread.


I'll try and keep this short. I said in another thread earlier in the year that I thought the brass decided that with new systems, new coaches, lockout, etc. this team was not going to challenge for anything this year so they're gonna run those new systems down the team's throat no matter what. Players would be coached, graded, and evaluated and then decisions would be made for next year. I believe that's why there were no moves in the FA market. See the players you want and then use next year's draft and FA to bring in the players you need.

Not even saying I'm right but for a true fan who desperately wants to believe this team actually wants to accomplish something and move forward what other explanation can there be without going for KOK's theory of robbing Lehner blind and moving on?(no dis intended, King) Is that why Mitchell's ass isn't on the bench? Is that why Little's ass isn't on the bench? Although I think that since Little didn't play last year and doesn't have a lot of experience at the position Shurmur is just playing him for reps. The Hillis deal is just mind boggling. Like I said, man, just shoot me.

Then all this gets into another argument EE had about if I'm right, why should he, you, or I accept throwing away a season this way. But now I'm just rehashing old posts and my brain hurts.

Unless you want to buy into the idea that Lerhner could care less how this team progresses (and who could argue with that at this point?) you have to grab into anything that would paint a better picture than what we're seeing now. I have to or the team I've worshiped forever is forcing me to move on. Not there yet, though

[golfer704u]

Great post Tom,

My biggest worry is one you elude to in this post rather blantantly.

IS Pat Shurmur deciding how many snaps each guy gets? or is that being handed down from above? The only guy in your examples that I can say Shurmur is controlling the issue is Moore. and if Riff is right and his practice effort is low, I'd back Shurmur.

But NO TEAM works well when the GM is dictating to the HC who to play when. What ever my feelings are for Shurmur, he deservers the right to make those decisions.

In my opinion it's what cursed the Savage/Crennel years. I still disagree with you and others hear that Savage wasn't quite as bad as some want to make him out to believe. Wimbleys play in Oakland shows that. But when you realize the reality was Savage was drafting players regardless of what Crennel wanted. THAT's where things implode on a front office.

I also think some of the players Heckert has drafted are going to be good and I think that part he is good at. But is FA and player signings, I'm not so sure, AND I worry that decisions are being made on the field based to try and justify moves made by the GM.

[pl4tinum]

These guys have to think that their player drafting/evaluation skills are good enough to draft guys while still winning games. Losing "on purpose-ish" to get higher draft picks is a joke. I think Shurmur is just that worthless of a coach. Shurmur has basically made me question Holmgren and that's something I've never thought I'd do.

[1brownsfans]

Originally Posted by Flugel

2) Why was it urgent to get Chris Gocong this so called necessary raise? He might be the worst LBer we have. Pad height always too high, instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night time so he's ALWAYS getting blocked regardless of of whetehr Mitchell looks like Santa's sleigh in reverse or not.

The reason Gocong got the contract that he did is because he can play all 3 LBer positions in our defense. Is he an above average player, no but he adds some much needed depth to a very shallow position on the Browns team.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Thaid_Up

Not even saying I'm right but for a true fan who desperately wants to believe this team actually wants to accomplish something and move forward what other explanation can there be without going for KOK's theory of robbing Lehner blind and moving on?(no dis intended, King) Is that why Mitchell's ass isn't on the bench? Is that why Little's ass isn't on the bench? Although I think that since Little didn't play last year and doesn't have a lot of experience at the position Shurmur is just playing him for reps. The Hillis deal is just mind boggling. Like I said, man, just shoot me.

Then all this gets into another argument EE had about if I'm right, why should he, you, or I accept throwing away a season this way. But now I'm just rehashing old posts and my brain hurts.

Unless you want to buy into the idea that Lerhner could care less how this team progresses (and who could argue with that at this point?) you have to grab into anything that would paint a better picture than what we're seeing now. I have to or the team I've worshiped forever is forcing me to move on. Not there yet, though

None taken Thaid.

I feel I should explain something our newer members who are unfamiliar with me may not know. I am/was actually somewhat of a homer when it comes to new guys coming in here. I was Holmgren's AND Heckerts biggest boosters on this forum when they came in and gleefully debated ALL the flashing red warning signs as being false. I was falsely propping up Holmgren as a genius and Heckert as a draft guru just as good as Ozzie, Pittspukes asshole and Bill Polian. I ignored everything to the contrary because I WANTED to believe that Lerner hit it out of the ballpark this time, that Lerner just reunited the Parcells DNA and the Walsh DNA off the Brown tree creating a superhybrid tree.

I cannot begin to tell you how bad it makes me feel to have my opinion changed and say the things i've brought up. It gives me a sick stomach and depression just thinking about it all and coming to the conclusion that the new team President is simply here for a paycheck and to get his largely ineffective coaching tree paid. I feel worse about putting blinders on from the start and not facing what those who have actually been around this guy for years were saying.

There is little doubt left in my mind, in fact none that the guy is merely collecting a paycheck. To answer your questions on further explanation for all of this it isn't merely the fact that the acting owner of the franchise is walking around in his office in a Seahawks hoodie feverishly watching the 'Hawks lose each week, there ARE other facets.

The word of the day is egomaniac. Ron Wolf, the Packers GM that had to tolerate and put up with Holmgren for almost a decade sees Holmgren as an egomaniac. He has delusions of grandeur that he is this brilliant NFL mind and that the only method to doing things is the way he does them. Witness to this would be the fact that since leaving Green Bay he has been on a nonstop mission to prove that he, not Ron Wolf was the genius behind the team that created the legacy and mythology of Mike Holmgren. You can see it plain as day with his QB drafts, he's been drafting QB's with serious knocks against them coming out for over a decade now trying to recreate the Favre, Hasselbeck, Brunnell, Warner magic that Wolf crafted like a wizard.

I don't think he's the only one though. Heckert seems to have the same sized ego and chip of his shoulder. Snubbed by multiple teams for the big GM job and looked at as Andy Reid's coffee fetcher he seems obsessed with trying to beatsquare pegs into round holes to prove he was the mastermind in Philly. Because of that we get him bringing over guys he actually helped draft in Philly when Reid casts them onto the scrap heap, overpaying them, and we get an unwillingness to admit his choices such as Jayme Mitchell suck. We also get to witness him making nonsensical draft choices in an attempt to prove himself the top GM in the NFL.

Heckert is largely overthinking it all. He's making stupid choices like trading away 3rd round picks to move up to draft 350lb NT's, wasting picks on guys like Greg Little and drafting guys with 3rd-4th round grades early in round two trying to outsmart everyone. The only guy he is outsmarting is himself.

If an honest look is taken at all of the angles over the last two years it becomes apparent that the ego's run rampant in Berea right now. Be it bringing in a failed OC to be HC AND OC, paraded as the guy everyone else missed to the draft to the lack of free agency to the sabotaging the previous regime at every turn to treating this franchise like they're so special they can take however long they wish to turn it around to... To the condescending attitudes towards the fanbase. Egomania is running wild in Brownstown.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Here's my two cents on the points you've raised, in bold...

Originally Posted by Flugel

As I watch games weekly, here's some head scratchable concerns I have:

1) Why was it urgent to get Evan Moore a nice contract extension ONLY to see him make cameo appearances each week. Does he get more than 10% of the offensive reps lining up as flanker, slot or wing? He doesn't really play TE unless someone caught him sneaking up to the line of scrimmage and blocking someone.

- Evan Moore is an unmitigated disaster. Why give him an extention in the first place if he lacked the necessary tools, motivations or inspirations to do the job properly? He gets a token play here or there, like you said, and be damn if he doesn't deliver when he is on the field. I want to know what the hell is going on there, Shurmur?

2) Why was it urgent to get Chris Gocong this so called necessary raise? He might be the worst LBer we have. Pad height always too high, instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night time so he's ALWAYS getting blocked regardless of of whetehr Mitchell looks like Santa's sleigh in reverse or not.

- I defended Gocong early and mid season but it's been apparent, even now without Fujita that he's not a standout LB, and Gocong and DQJ cannot get it done alone w/o someone exceptional on the other side and I think that's the most telling example of how important Fujita has been to this D despite the 'off year' and how much of a non-factor really that Gocong's been. He had a good game against Miami and we haven't seen him at that level since.

3) Why are we telling Hillis we're too good for negotiating with him? Because we need another major need?

- I don't know WTF is going on here. We need to give Hillis a contract. PERIOD, it needs to be incentive laden with milestones and cash, bada bing-bada bom, let Hillis CHASE the money for fuck sakes and get him in a Brown and Orange uniform for a few more years. The offense looks completely different out there with Hillis on the field.

4) Jayme Mitchell. Deep 6 the ego Heckert - he stinks really bad. In the process of Mitchell being Hecket's choice - that put a refreshign attitude like Marcus Benard in the Doghouse here because the WRONG Head Coach also filling in as missing GM decided that was a REAL nice undrafted FA we can give the NFL's version of minimum wage to. Benard led us in sacks in 2010 and it appeared he bulked up to improve his stoutness vrs the run. If it wasn't already better than Wimbley's stoutness vrs the run - I dare say Wimbley would still be here.

- Mitchell has been a non-factor and great point bringing up Marcus Bernard, another ghost much like Evan Moore. I've been saying we need a pass rusher opposite Sheard and I'm glad to see you've come around Flugs, though many of us have written off Michell since midseason as well. I think Heckert definitely bites the bullet on this one. Though I wouldn't hesitate to bash Heckert's draft pick of Phil Taylor like KoK does, I like Taylor and will give him a bit of time to mature.

5) Are we REALLY stuck watching a WR that can't catch because that's the GM's choice? That's no different than Butch Davis exercising his GM powers to start a lazy Gerrard Warren early on while he's telling other young players and vets they need to EARN their playing time with hustle and productivity. So when he hits a Jax QB after the whistle and gives them a first down - he stays on the field just like Greg Little after and 3rd, 4th and 5th drop. BAD message when it's a guy like Cribbs with 4 TD receptions to Little's 1 TD reception in spite of how many more reps Little has out there. And he SHOULDN'T be frsutrated he's sick of losing? He also got to watch Oakland return a kickoff while the guy replacing Cribbs on that unit was picking his nose.

- It saddens me that Cribbs has become another one of those "WTF" things but honestly I dont think it needs to be. He's a veteran of the team, he SHOULD be pissed about the losing. You put some on Colt, I mean he's the one throwing to Little 4-5-6 times while the ball is constantly bouncing off of Little's hands and chest. You definately put some on Shurmur for starting a rookie who's played so poorly, especially when others are showing better playmaking potential like Norwood. IMO its' reminiscent of Mangini's managment of the offensive talent, we know how that story ended.

6) Shawn Lauvao is the SAME story. He doesn't EVER have to show he gets it because he was Heckert's choice on draft day and replacing him a potentially more intelligent and savvy vet like Greco would mean 1 start = lost late round pick next year on the conditions we acquired him under. That's not a win NOW mentality. The POWEWRPLAY of it all from above handcuffs a rookie HC into feelign like we have to stick with Lauvao after he whiffs durign the plays and costs us 15 yards of mindless personal fouls after the play. The reason he and Little REPEAT the same mistakes ad nauseum is there's NO consequences for repeating the mistakes.

- Lauvao is not a starter, he's a backup. He's proven that this year IMO. He might improve, but honestly I think we will need to replace him in the near future, RT is a bigger concern.

7) Why did I ever think Heckert was brilliant for drafting a roster cancer like DeSean Jackson in rd 2 in Philly? My homeristic thought that ALWAYS gets me in trouble later on is this guy nails WR picks (he also drafted Maclin there). MEANWHILE, Philly's current D has a stud like Trent Cole (much like Sheard can become) playing in a WIDE spread front overating the BeJesus out of their LBer Corps taking on the enormous natural running lanes such a formation creates. Philly's LBer Corps I believe Heckert is partly responsible for - looks every bit as bad as OUR LBer Corps vrs the run. I like D'Qwell and think Titus Brown should be somewhere in the mix - he got 1 rep 2 weeks ago and it was a sack so he rarely played much after. Whatever!

- I dont have much to say on this other than when you look at the case evidence. Heckert's track record drafting Defense vs Offense is pretty obvious. I think he's got a better eye for defensive talent than he does offensive talent. We lament him as this savior of our football team because of picks like Haden, Ward, Sheard and Taylor yet Holmgren wants all the credit if Colt McCoy can be a superstar and Colt is a 3rd round Bustola if he can't be the future of the Cleveland Browns I mean FFS here, its a bit ridiculous!! (Sorry for the abreviation, I just didn't want to type it.)

8) My biggest worry of all, is a bad diagnosis of what is going wrong can lead to us trading WAY too much future help for a QB that can't change the unwatchable WR Corps unless it's David Copperfield I suppose. The OTHER bad in that is if there are no intentions of trading away the next 10 drafts for Andrew Luck or The Bleach Blonde at USC is we'll REACH a QB that shouldn't be in the upper round 1 up into a status he does not belong at ONLY to find out the same old - "he needs speed on the perimeter and it needs to be guys that can catch the ball." Gee, really? USC has that galore with guys that catch ainbows and outleap defenders ALL the time. In Cleveland, all those same passes are interceptions IF the guards allow him to even throw the ball.

- I don't want us to reach for Luck, I really, really don't. We need a stud WR, IMO. Someone who knows what they are doing on the field so that he can help Colt make plays. We KNOW Colt can make the throws, we've SEEN it time and again honestly. Colt needs someone out there who has POTENTIAL but can already catalyze a play on the field with his ability. IMO. Cribbs is okay, but with nobody on the opposite end of the field to help him with the secondary coverage heat, they'll just make sure Cribbs is covered and everything else is square. We've seen it for what 14 weeks now? A kneejerk reaction right now is the LAST thing the team needs.

9) How can I feel better about all this - when this was the stuff that was supposed to change in lieu of providing much more of the same?

- I've been asking myself this same question. I have hope that maybe Heckert can do as he has done the past couple drafts which is for the most part acquire depth regardless of talent level, young depth is just as good as old over the hill, overpaid depth IMO. With maybe 2-3 good players. His first draft was better than his second, IMO, but with the young team, the young, inexperienced, seemingly unprepared coach guiding an equally young, inexperienced offense. That is showing, that lack of preparation.

Where's the practice? Where's the gameplanning? We've already mentioned all this around week 9-10 and we haven't seen any improvement after Baltimore railroads us. Nearly 300 yards RUSHING.... Meanwhile Hillis can barely get to the 50 milestone... with no depth behind him and no passing game. Baltimore's D keyed in and took care of business. I've written the year off... we'll be a 5-11 team AGAIN with any LUCK.

[King of Kings]

- Mitchell has been a non-factor and great point bringing up Marcus Bernard, another ghost much like Evan Moore. I've been saying we need a pass rusher opposite Sheard and I'm glad to see you've come around Flugs, though many of us have written off Michell since midseason as well. I think Heckert definitely bites the bullet on this one. Though I wouldn't hesitate to bash Heckert's draft pick of Phil Taylor like KoK does, I like Taylor and will give him a bit of time to mature.

Whoa easy there bro, I said i'd give him time. All i'm saying is it will be a HUGE leap he needs to take to warrant using a first and third on the guy. If you use multiple premium draft picks on a player they need to perform at an elite level and preferably show signs of that from year one. So far he's shown us he's comparable to a street FA against average to above average G/C's and so far it looks like those two picks were a mistake.

Hell i've kinda been pretty kind to Heckert, allowing him to claim Taylor and Ward as hits(4/22 looks ALOT better than 2/22.)

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Great post Tom,

My biggest worry is one you elude to in this post rather blantantly.

IS Pat Shurmur deciding how many snaps each guy gets? or is that being handed down from above? The only guy in your examples that I can say Shurmur is controlling the issue is Moore. and if Riff is right and his practice effort is low, I'd back Shurmur.

But NO TEAM works well when the GM is dictating to the HC who to play when. What ever my feelings are for Shurmur, he deservers the right to make those decisions.

In my opinion it's what cursed the Savage/Crennel years. I still disagree with you and others hear that Savage wasn't quite as bad as some want to make him out to believe. Wimbleys play in Oakland shows that. But when you realize the reality was Savage was drafting players regardless of what Crennel wanted. THAT's where things implode on a front office.

I also think some of the players Heckert has drafted are going to be good and I think that part he is good at. But is FA and player signings, I'm not so sure, AND I worry that decisions are being made on the field based to try and justify moves made by the GM.

Really good points made Golf! I like your questions about who is dictating who plays. It still makes me think back to Butch Davis pissing off all the players he was telling "we earn our reps here with hustle and snot bubbles" while Big Money was the laziest guy on the team getting those reps regardless. Today, Greg Little and Shawn Lauvao NEVER come off the field whether it's an unnecessary 15 yard flag from Lauvao or multiple drops from Little.

My beef with Savage was usually in defense of what Mangini inherited and what I felt was unjust criticism toward having only 4 draft picks inherited with the sizable roster volume that needed to be purged WITHOUT a front office guiding Mangini. I just found Savage to be too disconnected with what RAC wanted in his front 7. You bring up a terrific example like Wimbley who playing his best football in a 4-3 scheme just like D'Qwell Jackson is doing so today. Where I saw the problem was RAC came here saying he wanted to run a 3-4 so he needed certain pedigree of LBer and the types of dlinemen that can play in a 2 gap scheme upfront. Savage got him high paid veterans from 4 man dlines with 1 gap schemes like: Shaun Smith, Shaun Rogers, Corey Williams and Robaire Smith. The ONLY guy that wasn't a disappointment was Robaire Smith due to the fact he played in a 3 man scheme in Houston before he went to TN's 4 man scheme. His problem was age and wear and tear. He landed on IR a couple times. Other bad choices included Jason Fisk on an empty gas tank and Ted Washington about 4 years after his best football. He was really excited about signing Antwan Peek from Hosuton who was NEVER healthy before coming to Cleveland. He went to IR every year here as well. We had the PERFECT 3-4 LBer on our doorstep in round 2 by the name of LaMar Woodley the year we drafted D'Qwell near the top of round 2. It actually took me all the way until this year to feel happy with Jackson's performance. He wasn't a very good 3-4 ILBer just like Jon Vilma never was with the Jets before excelling in New Orleans' 4-3. Neither guy was built/born to take on the girthy OGs of the NFL. The sad reason I was most excited about changing our defense back to a 4-3 this year was because of how long I was disappointed we could never find the right LBers. I saw too many ILBers nout suited to take on 330 pound OGs behind 3 guys upfront that should have never left their previous 1 gap schemes for the 2 gap scheme they weren't suited for. That's why David Bowens provided a surprising spark when he replced D'Qwell Jackson inside in 2009 because he was bigger and he handled the OGs easier. I view all that as a BAD personnel decision maker, which absolutely handcuffed/killed the plan RAC had in mind. A GM has to know what his coach needs. I look at what RAC did with the right personnel in KC and he has a conference leading sacker in Tamba Hali the last 2 years while LBer Derrick Johnson has been playing the best football of his career. That KC defense turned it right around last year because Scott Pioli was equipping RAC with the right guys for his scheme.

The thing that irked me most about Savage was I was soooo excited he told us we were going to build through the draft and not overpay in FA. In the press conference I watched and heard online, he said the draft was the biggest reason he got hired in Cleveland. Next thing I know, we didn't have a day 1 for the 2008 draft and we only had 4 draft picks remaining for 2009. He made some horrible FA choices like signing Joe Andruzzi and Kevin Shaffer to be the blind sight for our right handed QBs. There were alot blunders more but I don't want to get too long winded. I think Mangini got unfairly criticized due to that nightmare Savage left him there.

If you want to tell me Savage wasn't any worse than the reason he was hired to better up - I can't argue at all. Me, being the HOMER I always am, I had a powerful first impression of Savage that led to the conclusion: he sounds VERY trustworthy with the confidence in his approach and draft skills. Like everyone else that has had his position here, I think they under-estimated the overall challenge once the work began following the upfront promises and willingness to be different. Now, I'm worrying I've put the same trust and confidence in Heckert. Savage is over in Philly as a key personnel scout where they traded away a bunch of picks to draft DE Brandon Graham out of Michigan in round 1 a couple years - has he made a splash yet? And Heckert is here giving raises to Evan Moore and Chris Gocong while telling a guy like Hillis to Go-Fish on that new contract talk. The KARMA of all this since Mangini got his walking papers for not being an instant miracle worker is now they have to take a step or 2 backward to see that the Lerner business isn't attracting the top rated miracle workers to coach this team. We might want to hire David Copperfield as a consultant considering what Gil Haskell has done for his 6-7 figured salary.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

Whoa easy there bro, I said i'd give him time. All i'm saying is it will be a HUGE leap he needs to take to warrant using a first and third on the guy. If you use multiple premium draft picks on a player they need to perform at an elite level and preferably show signs of that from year one. So far he's shown us he's comparable to a street FA against average to above average G/C's and so far it looks like those two picks were a mistake.

Hell i've kinda been pretty kind to Heckert, allowing him to claim Taylor and Ward as hits(4/22 looks ALOT better than 2/22.)

I'm just saying you don't hesitate to throw either Taylor nor Ward under the bus when you're dissing Heckert. I'm not disagreeing that we need more time to see if they will truly be of value for the long term or not. I think Ward's going to be a special player, IMO. We need a corner and another safety and we could have a dangerous secondary, with a proper LB corps, our D could maybe be fearsome.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil

I'm just saying you don't hesitate to throw either Taylor nor Ward under the bus when you're dissing Heckert. I'm not disagreeing that we need more time to see if they will truly be of value for the long term or not. I think Ward's going to be a special player, IMO. We need a corner and another safety and we could have a dangerous secondary, with a proper LB corps, our D could maybe be fearsome.

I think Ward will be a good player, but he has the durability issues like Hardesty (not as bad as Hardesty, but still an issue). It will all hinge on whether or not he can stay healthy.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Enigmatic Evil

I'm just saying you don't hesitate to throw either Taylor nor Ward under the bus when you're dissing Heckert. I'm not disagreeing that we need more time to see if they will truly be of value for the long term or not. I think Ward's going to be a special player, IMO. We need a corner and another safety and we could have a dangerous secondary, with a proper LB corps, our D could maybe be fearsome.

I don't see it as throwing Taylor under the bus. He hasn't played well and hasn't made an impact and frankly should be spelling Paxson for now. A far cry from a can't miss prospect you burn your 3rd rounder trading up for. If he beasts it one day cool and I hope he does.

As to Ward i'm kind in that I let him have Ward. You're right, I don't like Ward. His coverage ability sucks balls and he quits on plays(huge pet peeve of mind). I see him at this point as a Sean Jones clone and it's unlikely he develops the instinct to be able to consistently defend the pass. The only reason I let Heckert use them as not a miss is because he isn't a liability against the run. Unfortunately 80% of the rest of the D is but he isn't, so he at least has that going for him.