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12-14-2011
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12-14-2011
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It's far too soon to even judge Heckert's picks. Draft classes typically can't be evaluated completely until 2 or 3 years after they happen. Guys taken after round 3 typically cannot be judged for 2~4 years as guys taken in rounds 4-7 usually don't become regular contributors (not counting ST) for that long. It's why they drop to those later rounds. They require time to develop for various reasons (size, raw talent, etc.). As to Savage being better than Heckert and Savage hitting on more than two picks a year, lets just take a look. Savage Drafts 2005 1st round Edwards - a player, but a bit of a bust as a #3 overall pick 2nd round Pool - a player, marginal talent, but servicable 3rd round Frye - out of the league, enough said 4th round Perkins - spent pick with nothing in return 5th round McMillen - spent pick with nothing in return 6th round Speegle - spent pick with nothing in return 6th round Hoffman - spent pick with nothing in return 7th round Dunn - spent pick with nothing in return All in all hit on one, maybe 2 players. Considering where the two players were taken and the return they have delivered, closer to misses than hits. But we can call it 2. 2006 Draft 1st round Wimbley - Bust in CLE and Savage traded up with BALT to get him, allowing BALT to take Ngata. 2nd round Jackson - Solid player and still with CLE 3rd round Wilson - spent pick with nothing in return 4th round Williams - spent pick with nothing in return 4th round Sowells - spent pick with nothing in return 5th round Harrison - was a decent back, but apparently has got issues 5th round Minter - spent pick with nothing in return 6th round Vickers - one of the best FBs in the league 6th round Oshinowo - spent pick with nothing in return 7th round Hamilton - spent pick with nothing in return All in all hit on two, maybe 3players. Considering where Wimbley was taken and the cost we'll call it 2 2007 Draft 1st round Joe Thomas - Pro bowler and one of the best, if not the best LT in the league 1st round Quin - bust. 2nd round Wright - a decent CB 5th round McDonald - servicable CB 6th round Purcell - spent pick with nothing in return 7th round Pitman - spent pick with nothing in return 7th round Steptoe - spent pick with nothing in return So one big hit and maybe 2 others. So we'll call this 3. 2008 Draft 4th round Bell - spent pick with nothing in return 4th round Rucker - spent pick with nothing in return 6th round Rubin - Great find that late in the draft and a top notch DT/NT 6th round Hubbard - spent pick with nothing in return 7th round Hall - spent pick with nothing in return One player hit on. Total here is one out of four drafts where Savage hit on more than 2 guys. Then you look at the others and notice the majority are out of football and have been out for a while Heckerts Drafts 2010 Draft 1st round Haden - All indications are a hit with this pick 2nd round Ward - All indiciations until his injury this year was hit with this pick 2nd round Hardesty - looking like a miss, especially since he moved up to get him 3rd round McCoy - Jury is out 3rd round Lauvao - looking like a miss 5th round Asante - couldn't stay healthy during camp and cut. He is on TBs roster 6th round Mitchell - jury is out 6th round Geathers - spent pick with nothing in return As of today it would be 2 hits with the possiblity of it being 4. Will be another year or two before we know it. 2011 Draft 1st round Taylor - all indications are a hit (not to mention grabbed another 1st rounder for next year) 2nd round Sheard - all indications are a hit 2nd round Little - jury is out. High risk/high reward pick here 4th round Cameron - jury is out 4th round Marecic - jury is out 5th round Skrine - jury is out 5th round Pinkston - starting to look like a hit 7th round Hagg - jury is out As of today it would be 2 hits with the possiblity of it being 4 or more. Will be another year or two before we know it. So in two drafts Heckert has hit 2 in each witht he possibility of it panning out to be 4 in each. We'll know better in a year or two. My guess is both will turn out to be 3 and 4 hits (or more if guys remain and contribute on STs and are serviceable back up players). So your theory that Savage was hitting on more than 2 a year or hitting better than Heckert today is a bit off base. As to the cap space, who were these guys Heckert should have been signing and wanted to come to CLE this past shortened offseason? By the way, the blogger of that piece didn't seem to be trying to compare Savage to Heckert. He simply was showing what a mess the previous 3 drafts before Holmgren and Heckert came in were. But in your zeal you seem to ignore the writer put in the 2009 draft as well (not Savage). The blogger could have just lifted one of Tom's posts and pull all of the Browns drafts from 1999 to 2009, which Tom rightfully blasts as a major reason for CLE continued failure. Year after year they missed on picks from the top of the draft down, save for the occassional hit in the first round. It's a major reason CLE has been so bad. When you draft poorly for years your team will not have talent. Teams in the NFL don't become winning organizations through FA, they do so through the draft. |
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12-14-2011
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Its the drops, you can't be consistantly dropping passes that would be first downs, etc. We already lived Braylon Edwards and the Cleveland FanBase is very picky about its WR's in light of that we have really had one okay WR in Kevin Johnson in town since 1999. We have seen a lot of failed potential come through town and yeah maybe we are quick to throw Little under the bus but the drops are hard to watch. Platinum's post proves it, look at the names, Darrin Chiaverini, Jajuan Dawson, Quincy Morgan, Andre Davis, Robo, and probably add MoMass to that list very soon. Greg Little has time to rebound IMO, I think legitimately the reason he's been given more playing time is the same thing that may do more harm than good, that's that the team wants to see what they have in him. However, this being his second season TOTAL playing WR, he needs proper COACHING to develop the tools he would not have learned from one year of college ball at WR. I wonder if he is receiving that level of professional coaching we would expect but on the other hand, we've seen players like Jordan Norwood come through and make plays, Evan Moore even, and they are losing snaps so a guy like Little can learn head first. I don't know...
__________________ BROWNS 2012: Its Weeden's job to lose, it was the second we took him #22 overall. We had a pretty good draft, and I'd like to start seeing some results. Fans already looking to next year and I don't blame them. I think we will have things to be excited about that we lacked last year and we have some real facepalm moments just like last year. It's going to be tough. We aren't Barking Hard for nothing. WOOF WOOF WOOF!  |
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12-14-2011
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12-14-2011
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I think Little will stick as long as he can cut down on the drops. He has the other tools. And if he fails as a WR maybe he should go back to RB  I just hope our talent evaluation skill on the offensive side of the ball can show through in this draft. When you draft so bad for so long you're guaranteed to suck. Any injury just exposes the depth problem. We dont even have average guys that we drafted hanging around as insurance/backups because we either hit or miss completely in the draft. Like 50% of the guys we drafted since 99 didnt even play in the league for more than 1 season. |
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12-14-2011
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By my math that's two hits and 20 misses. Yes I include the many draft picks he stupidly traded away as misses. Quote:
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I realize in your eyes Tommy can do no wrong but on a team like this with holes? You bring in free agents. Even if it's only 3 or 4 you had to pay a little bit more to, we had the cap space to do that AND have plenty of money leftover to overpay his precious Eagles rejects. |
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12-14-2011
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First off Savage had 30 picks, not 22. Neither Pool nor Edwards are bigger hits than any of the hits in the last 2 years imo. Neither one is even in Haden's class. But lets just take your 8. That's 8 out 30 picks. In no year did he hit better than 3 in one class. At best he hit 3 in 2 of the 4 drafts he ran. So much for your 2-4 Savage hit on in any year. Frankly I can't believe anyone would try to point to Savage as being "good" at the draft. I defended him for a time, but once the years went by and you could truly judge his drafts, they were bad. Wimbley was not a hit for CLE or a 3-4. So while a good NFL player not sure how that can count as a hit when drafting for the Browns. But hey, give him that one and you got 2 drafts where he hit on more than 2 players (a grand total of 3 both times). You may not like Ward and you have the right to your opinion. But it would differ drastically from what scouts think. Ward was doing better this year in coverage. Plus we are talking about a SS and those guys are usually weaker in pass coverage. Clark over in PIT is shitty in coverage too, but he's a damn fine SS when you understand the primary job of one. He also hasn't been "injury prone". He played every game last year. This year is the first he's missed time with an injury. It's the NFL, injuries happen. You can try to give Haden to EM, but it wasn't his draft. It's Heckerts draft and his pick. It's not a reasonable argument to decide to pick and chose guy a was A EM pick guy B was a Heckert pick. Pinkston as a rookie is of course going to be a down grade to the vet Steinback. He's a rookie. He's if nothing else is a servicable depth player, which is what at minimum one hopes to get out of a 5th round pick. Cameron hasn't seen the field and is a project player. It's far to early to judge him. Just as it is too early to juden Skrine, Hagg, or Maricic (let's not pretend Vickers was some super stud his first season and that the FB plays a huge roll in a WCO. Considering the cost of him vs. what HOU is paying Vickers when both are seeing the field for just as many snaps, which aren't a lot, it's value). You can think Taylor is not a good pick, but much like with Ward, scouts will disagree with you. Jackson isn't getting all his clean tackles or no reason. The combination of Taylor and Rubin is allowing for that. Taylor ranks 8th in the league in tackles for DTs, 5th among DTs in sacks, 9th in QB hits among DTs, and 5th in QB hits among DTs (http://wp.advancednflstats.com/defenderstats.php?pos=DT). Heckert has had 16 picks to date. Out of those 16 he has hit on what most would view as 5, with the possibility of 3-5 more guys actually being hits from this past draft (time will tell). Who was available in FA is irrelevant. Guys have to want to come to CLE. While there were that many guys available, not a large chuck were actually impact guys who will really help CLE (or most teams, out side of a bit of depth). Guys have to want to come to CLE unless CLE wants to simply over pay for guys not worth the amount paid, and we have seen how that has worked out. No one has said Heckert has done no wrong. He has made some mistakes (trading up for Hardesty is one example). By the way, the only Eagles "rejects" he has signed were Alex Smith in 2010 and Patterson this year. Neither guy was over paid (and Patterson contributes every week and is a good Nickle CB). Of course you could be refering to the contract extention given to Gocong, which I don't agree with the Browns giving him. The price of 16.8M over 3 years, with most likely not guaranteed, is not really that much in the NFL scheme. But I wouldn't have done it, but that's me. |
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12-14-2011
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Dimitrioff has yet to hit on a pick past the 3rd round. Newsome, no doubt seems to hit in the later rounds as does BB. But like I said, there are just a handful of teams/GMs who hit a lot past round 3. |
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12-14-2011
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Last edited by King of Kings; 12-14-2011 at 04:58 PM. |
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