Perpetual Motions

[Greythan]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

Oh wait, in the first part you do say.

"Vickers signed a 2 year, $3m contract with KC that has a 2011 cap hit of only $1.25m."

but then later say Houston.

Typo?

Typo, so I'm now at least half a jackass myself.

I still stand by the nitpick edit comment. Makes you wonder why you bother to take time to write something thoughtful.

[Masters]

To add to the Wright thing, I don't think him chosing one year in DET over more money/3 year in CLE had to do with organization as much as over zelous fans in CLE (back to my point of seeming to forget how he actually played).

"Browns cornerback Eric Wright, who had a tumultuous season here in 2010 and ultimately received death threats from fans, turned down more money and a longer deal from the Browns to sign a one-year contract with the Lions, a source told the Plain Dealer."

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2011/7...eveland-browns

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...m-browns-fans/

Would you want to play in a city where fans make death threats based on how you play a game?

[Greythan]

Originally Posted by Masters

Vickers has very little impact in HOUs running game. HOU, like CLE, makes very little use of the FB in the running game, since it sees a lot more of single back sets. Last I saw Vickers had actually seen less snaps than Owen has in CLE (even with him missing time).

For every single snap Marecic has been in our games, we were worse than had it been Vickers. I'll wait for your inevitable obsession to debate to kick in as I'm sure you'll somehow try to take a counter stance to this. I can think of a number of key, short yardage plays this year WITH Marecic where we failed. Vickers is just a much better player at this time.

Originally Posted by Masters

Wright? This is the same guy most people were ripping apart last year for his play. Apparently we all now forget how much he would get torched (and more time than Brown).

Nice statistical response. I appreciate the research.

Well, in addition to my point about Detroit's pass defense ranking pretty well this year, I'll add to this the Football Outsider's ranking for Eric Wright as one of Detroit's starting corners: they rank #3 against opposing #1 WR's and #4 against opposing #2 WR's. (We are #'s 17 and 25 respectively.)

Wright on this roster would have made us a better team.

Originally Posted by Masters

Roth has done very little for JAX D. This is the same guy who got himself cut from MIA. I would venture a guess that the guy may bring some other "problems".

Sure CLE could have kept all those guys, but none of those guys likely would have made any significant different in how CLEs season has played out.

Roth's been injured as I stated. I'm trying to see how you could think that Mitchell is a better option than Roth. This, by the way, is part of the rationale that Heckert used to let this guy go.

And as for the pathetic allusion to Roth as a problem child, let's not forget that our FO played a large role in disenfranchising the guy. Yes, he preferred to play in a 3-4 but if our alternatives for a 4-3 DE were as bad as we're seeing, how did we not see how keeping Roth and showing him some love might have helped our team.

However, I see you overall point. Letting all three of these guys go for the chump change they would have cost us to keep them was 100% logical.

[Greythan]

Originally Posted by Masters

To add to the Wright thing, I don't think him chosing one year in DET over more money/3 year in CLE had to do with organization as much as over zelous fans in CLE (back to my point of seeming to forget how he actually played).

"Browns cornerback Eric Wright, who had a tumultuous season here in 2010 and ultimately received death threats from fans, turned down more money and a longer deal from the Browns to sign a one-year contract with the Lions, a source told the Plain Dealer."

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2011/7...eveland-browns

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...m-browns-fans/

Would you want to play in a city where fans make death threats based on how you play a game?

Horseshit.

I'm to believe Wright's the only guy to get negative fan feedback such as this? I'm to believe that when this happens the only conclusion is for the player to leave and take less money? Why not take the bigger contract with Cleveland and hire a friggin' bodyguard?

Weak ass argument Masters, but vintage for your style of arguing for argument's sake.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Greythan

For every single snap Marecic has been in our games, we were worse than had it been Vickers. I'll wait for your inevitable obsession to debate to kick in as I'm sure you'll somehow try to take a counter stance to this. I can think of a number of key, short yardage plays this year WITH Marecic where we failed. Vickers is just a much better player at this time..

I don't dispute Vickers would be doing better then Owen when the FB is used. But the running game as a hole is not suffering because of the loss of Vickers, nor is HOU better because of his addition. I can also recall how bad people thought Vickers was when he was first drafted. He didn't play his rookie year much better then Owen

Originally Posted by Greythan

Nice statistical response. I appreciate the research.

Well, in addition to my point about Detroit's pass defense ranking pretty well this year, I'll add to this the Football Outsider's ranking for Eric Wright as one of Detroit's starting corners: they rank #3 against opposing #1 WR's and #4 against opposing #2 WR's. (We are #'s 17 and 25 respectively.)

Wright on this roster would have made us a better team.

Be a dick much? As if your original post was loaded with statistics to back up the Wright love . At least you did now. You know, if you don't like people disagreeing with your OPINION maybe internet message boards are not the place for you.

What you are missing in your equation there is DET pass rush which has a huge impact on CBs performances. I don't see those stats on Football outsiders unless it is under primium content. Where does Brown and Patterson rank? Is it just me that finds it odd that Wright ranks lower agaisnt #2s? Oh and by the way DET pass D is middle of the pack in the NFL

Then there is the reality that CLE is not getting killed in the passing game. So it's not like the secondary is some major struggle for CLE outside of the issue at saftey after Wards injury. Exactly where does Wright make CLE a better team than where they are at today?

Originally Posted by Greythan

Roth's been injured as I stated. I'm trying to see how you could think that Mitchell is a better option than Roth. This, by the way, is part of the rationale that Heckert used to let this guy go.

And as for the pathetic allusion to Roth as a problem child, let's not forget that our FO played a large role in disenfranchising the guy. Yes, he preferred to play in a 3-4 but if our alternatives for a 4-3 DE were as bad as we're seeing, how did we not see how keeping Roth and showing him some love might have helped our team.

However, I see you overall point. Letting all three of these guys go for the chump change they would have cost us to keep them was 100% logical.

Did CLE FO disenfranchise him in MIA too? You know where he was a starter and they were willing to cut him in the middle of the season.

Sure Roth would play better than Mitchell. But he has to want to be in CLE and CLE want him. If you think it was all about CLE disenfranchising him and being cheap you then you are viewing it all from nothing but a fan perspective imo. He prefered the 3-4 so much he signed to play in a 4-3 in JAX.

The over all point is these 3 guys were not going to help the team very much today or in the long term. Vickers they felt didn't fit and commanded more money then CLE wanted to put at a little used position in the offense they run. Wright didn't want to be in CLE (would you when you get death threats over blowing coverages?), and there is likely more to the Roth story than just dollars.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Greythan

Horseshit.

I'm to believe Wright's the only guy to get negative fan feedback such as this? I'm to believe that when this happens the only conclusion is for the player to leave and take less money? Why not take the bigger contract with Cleveland and hire a friggin' bodyguard?

Weak ass argument Masters, but vintage for your style of arguing for argument's sake.

So Wright's lying that he got death threat.

That's great that you would take the money and hire a body guard. Doesn't mean every other player would.

You think anyone who disagrees with you is arguing for arguement sake. Grow up and realize your opinion means as much as anyone elses, which is zero. How about this mister cry baby, I won't respond to your weak ass arguments and you can stay the F away from mine. Its no wonder the traffic here has been going way down here.

[Greythan]

Wow, easy big fella. I thought this whole "contrarian" thing was your schtick?

The gist of this thread was my making the point that $8m spent on these three guys would have been worth it and that our FO didn't come up with better alternatives for those positions this year. On the margin you can probably find something to poke a hole in, but the general point is solid. Hell, you yourself conceded the point that Vickers would have been better than Marecic and Roth would have been better than Mitchell. (The point of my entire post)

However, your initial post attempted to discredit the entire position. All it did was try to (weakly as I've shown) poke holes in the logic. I called you on it and now your offended?

Sheesh. Start a response one of these days with something like, "While I generally agree that Vickers and Roth would have helped the team, there's a few things I disagree with". It would be more engaging (if you care to be) and probably end up with you being less offended (which you seem to care about).

Now, go get your shine box.