Impact of Go To Guy

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Solon16

While i love the after the fact analogy...i have to use yer own words...:
QB is important and we need offense DESPERATELY.. Who in their right mind could dispute that.

No one would dispute that. They question becomse, when Luck and RGIII are both gone before we pick, is there anyone there REALLY worth a first round pick. Not, "they are a first round pick because QB's are so important and lots ot teams still need a QB". A Genuine first round talent grade. Which means they are able to start imediately and throw for 3000+ yards in their rookie year.

As much as I think his sucess is not sustainable. Newton did that, Dalton has done it. How about Ponder? Gabbert? That's where you'll never get me to agree.

After RGIII I see a lot of Ponder's and Gabbert's. And on this team with this coaching staff and this fan base, they wouldn't last a year here with people having unrealistic expectations.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

No one would dispute that. They question becomse, when Luck and RGIII are both gone before we pick, is there anyone there REALLY worth a first round pick. Not, "they are a first round pick because QB's are so important and lots ot teams still need a QB". A Genuine first round talent grade. Which means they are able to start imediately and throw for 3000+ yards in their rookie year.

As much as I think his sucess is not sustainable. Newton did that, Dalton has done it. How about Ponder? Gabbert? That's where you'll never get me to agree.

After RGIII I see a lot of Ponder's and Gabbert's. And on this team with this coaching staff and this fan base, they wouldn't last a year here with people having unrealistic expectations.

Well done! When we think about it, how many first rounds since 1983 had a John Elway AND Dan Marino? I guess we could say the one with Rivers and Roethlisberger was rare enough to remember 2 quality franchise QBs with - even if one of those franchises already had Drew Brees.

How often have we seen 2 talents like Peyton Manning in the first round? Inevitably, every year they hype up all the QBs and the guys like Ponder and Gabbert become beneficiaries MORE out of an overall shortage of quality QBs. Consequently, 2nd round caliber guys get justified as first round talents when they really aren't.

If Hans Christian Ponder was here sporting 2 wins and getting benched, he would be getting the same criticism McCoy got. And it's not like we've had Percy Harvin's speed here on the perimeter. Ironically McCoy's most vocal critics adore this kid so it gives me great pleasure to share how similar he is to Colt McCoy right down to the low avg yards per throw and rookie passer rating. Let's hope he doesn't get a brand new playbook with 0 OTAs coaching up the install before training camp. The similarity to McCoy speaks for itself except we only lost a late 3rd round pick while Minnesota burned an upper rd 1 pick. Enjoy:

SEASON	TEAM	GP	CMP	ATT	CMP%	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	INT	FUM	RAT
2011	MIN	9	146	268	54.5	1,757	6.56	13	72	12	5	72.3

[Riffer X]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Well done! When we think about it, how many first rounds since 1983 had a John Elway AND Dan Marino? I guess we could say the one with Rivers and Roethlisberger was rare enough to remember 2 quality franchise QBs with - even if one of those franchises already had Drew Brees.

How often have we seen 2 talents like Peyton Manning in the first round? Inevitably, every year they hype up all the QBs and the guys like Ponder and Gabbert become beneficiaries MORE out of an overall shortage of quality QBs. Consequently, 2nd round caliber guys get justified as first round talents when they really aren't.

If Hans Christian Ponder was here sporting 2 wins and getting benched, he would be getting the same criticism McCoy got. And it's not like we've had Percy Harvin's speed here on the perimeter. Ironically McCoy's most vocal critics adore this kid so it gives me great pleasure to share how similar he is to Colt McCoy right down to the low avg yards per throw and rookie passer rating. Let's hope he doesn't get a brand new playbook with 0 OTAs coaching up the install before training camp. The similarity to McCoy speaks for itself except we only lost a late 3rd round pick while Minnesota burned an upper rd 1 pick. Enjoy:

****Thommmmmm,
Ponder's gonna be a really good QB for a long time. He's got that compact release, throws a tight ball, has plenty of arm and can drive the intermediate throws... and he's insanely smart, like a 40 on his test and graduated in three years. I'm betting on that pony.

Overdrafted? Possibly. But with a wage scale, you can do that.

I would certainly trade Atlanta's pick and a third for him. If we are lucky, they would take McCoy too.!!!!!************

Have you seen Ponder's smile? It is model material!!!

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

No one would dispute that. They question becomse, when Luck and RGIII are both gone before we pick, is there anyone there REALLY worth a first round pick. Not, "they are a first round pick because QB's are so important and lots ot teams still need a QB". A Genuine first round talent grade. Which means they are able to start imediately and throw for 3000+ yards in their rookie year.

As much as I think his sucess is not sustainable. Newton did that, Dalton has done it. How about Ponder? Gabbert? That's where you'll never get me to agree.

After RGIII I see a lot of Ponder's and Gabbert's. And on this team with this coaching staff and this fan base, they wouldn't last a year here with people having unrealistic expectations.

@ Qb , I agree I wouldn't take a Qb other than Luck or RG3. Richardson is a stud and worth the 1 st IMO. Even tho they can be had all over the draft especially in second round but He is a legit offensive skill position stud. We prob go D line in the spot we are at "imo" then best O skill position with 1b and 2. "my guess" just so completly sick of no stars playing in Cleveland. NONE...richardson will be a star

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

****Thommmmmm,
Ponder's gonna be a really good QB for a long time. He's got that compact release, throws a tight ball, has plenty of arm and can drive the intermediate throws... and he's insanely smart, like a 40 on his test and graduated in three years. I'm betting on that pony.

Overdrafted? Possibly. But with a wage scale, you can do that.

I would certainly trade Atlanta's pick and a third for him. If we are lucky, they would take McCoy too.!!!!!************

Have you seen Ponder's smile? It is model material!!!

LMAO! That's a classic imitation. Hey, I started Ponder against you this week Riff. Let me know if you get a better Christmas gift than that.

[DieselPusher]

Agree with you Solon

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Solon16

@ Qb , I agree I wouldn't take a Qb other than Luck or RG3. Richardson is a stud and worth the 1 st IMO. Even tho they can be had all over the draft especially in second round but He is a legit offensive skill position stud. We prob go D line in the spot we are at "imo" then best O skill position with 1b and 2. "my guess" just so completly sick of no stars playing in Cleveland. NONE...richardson will be a star

I need you to understand and read what I'm telling you. It's not meant to be an insult but you get short fused when certain names appear in discussion. You're one that wants to be known as a draft guru because you're GOOD at noticing studs . Right now, I'll guarantee you're thinking you were the first person here to say Ricardson is going to be a stud in the NFL. However, KOKs brought him up a LONG time ago when he started to realize we weren't going to be in the position to draft Luck first. I'm not even sure there weren't others before him.

Anyway, to understand where you are going - you first need to understand where you are at as it pertains to the Cleveland Browns. Last year, you said we needed Robert Quinn at #6 overall; and he went to a team that sucked vrs the run exactly like us. NOBODY needs to throw against teams ranking rock bottom vrs the run while they rarely have leads to protect. Outcome? Quinn MIGHT have been a more appropriate pick for a team that protects leads and stops the run consistently. In Baltimore or Pittsburgh, he might have been a terrific pick. On a shit team that struggles against the run EXACTLY like he struggles vrs the run - he may never look like a wise upper first round pick. When I DARE tried to tell you I thought a guy like JJ Watt is a more complete player that can excell in either scheme and vrs the run AND pass - you challenged me to Robert Quinn was going to be rookie of the year with "book it" assurances. It was GREAT of you to own that later and I respected that from you. On the other hand, I'm still not sure you understand why we were debating. I wanted the guy who would be good vrs BOTH of our weaknesses instead of just 1 of them for the mere reasons the Rams are finding out today.

It's important to learn from this type of mistake or you will repeat it. NOBODY is telling you Richardson can't be a GREAT pick in a more compatible environment that won't invite 10 men in the box EVERY play. NOBODY is saying Richardson will NOT be a great RB. I haven't read 1 person writing that. What they are telling you is that a YOUNG Peyton Hills is ALREADY a great NFL RB and he just so happens to be employed by the Cleveland Browns. So why would a team that has countless glaring weaknesses at play maker positions in the passing game decide to try to upgrade the ONLY position our opponents respect with 10 men in the box? More specifically, their actions are saying we REALLY respect your running game but we have ZERO respect for your WRs. Seriously, what are the actions of every opponent throwing 10 men in the box telling us? Draft a RB first? Really? They're telling us we have ZERO at WR to respect. Is 16 consecutive weeks enough of a message or are we going to be dislexic with such a message?

New Orleans drafted Bama's Heisman Trophy winning RB Ingram; but he's spent his rookie season splitting reps with Pierre Thomas, Darren Sproles and Chris Ivory. In the process, their previous #2 overall pick Reggie Bush (once every bit the gotta have early as Richardson) was upgraded by mid-late round RB Darren Sproles. Houston drafted Tate in round 1 only to see Arian Foster reach mega star status while Tate is a wonderful backup. Btw, Foster didn't even require Houston to draft him so he was the same bang for the buck Hillis is. They didn't dick around insulting him while throwing compelling raises to LESSER players like Chris Gocong and Evan Moore. The ONLY difference between Foster and Hillis is Andre Johnson in the lineup limits the number of crowded defenses in the box. You get us an Andre Johnson here and Hillis gets even better while taking half the pounding.

[DawgFan]

Flugs, couldn't agree more. And while I normally hate drafting WR's high in the 1st round, a guy like Blackmon opposite Little would be a pretty huge upgrade over what we have now. Add in a legit RG and get Steiny back on the LG, move Pinkston to RT where he belongs, and suddenly you have a solid OL, with LEGIT outside threats, and a guy like Norwood in the slot, or a double TE threat with Moore and Watson, and I bet you see Hillis running for 1200+ easily.

Of course, it doesn't need to be Blackmon either, it could just as easily be Floyd or a speedster like Wright...as long as they run good routes and get open.

Further, with the RB situation, we still have Jackson coming back next year, and Ogbannaya (sic) who played well and knows Colt.

I prefer we play the Patriot game again and trade back a few slots while compiling a few more picks, pick up the DE we need with the #1, then get the next best WR with the second #1, then get some CB/G/ILB/OLB with the extra picks and the second rounders...

Anyway, like you said, just because a guy is a stud doesn't mean he FITS and doesn't mean you want to draft him.

[Thaid_Up]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Flugs, couldn't agree more. And while I normally hate drafting WR's high in the 1st round, a guy like Blackmon opposite Little would be a pretty huge upgrade over what we have now. Add in a legit RG and get Steiny back on the LG, move Pinkston to RT where he belongs, and suddenly you have a solid OL, with LEGIT outside threats, and a guy like Norwood in the slot, or a double TE threat with Moore and Watson, and I bet you see Hillis running for 1200+ easily.

Of course, it doesn't need to be Blackmon either, it could just as easily be Floyd or a speedster like Wright...as long as they run good routes and get open.

Further, with the RB situation, we still have Jackson coming back next year, and Ogbannaya (sic) who played well and knows Colt.

I prefer we play the Patriot game again and trade back a few slots while compiling a few more picks, pick up the DE we need with the #1, then get the next best WR with the second #1, then get some CB/G/ILB/OLB with the extra picks and the second rounders...

Anyway, like you said, just because a guy is a stud doesn't mean he FITS and doesn't mean you want to draft him.

What he said

[akronjoe]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

Flugs, couldn't agree more. And while I normally hate drafting WR's high in the 1st round, a guy like Blackmon opposite Little would be a pretty huge upgrade over what we have now. Add in a legit RG and get Steiny back on the LG, move Pinkston to RT where he belongs, and suddenly you have a solid OL, with LEGIT outside threats, and a guy like Norwood in the slot, or a double TE threat with Moore and Watson, and I bet you see Hillis running for 1200+ easily.

Of course, it doesn't need to be Blackmon either, it could just as easily be Floyd or a speedster like Wright...as long as they run good routes and get open.

Further, with the RB situation, we still have Jackson coming back next year, and Ogbannaya (sic) who played well and knows Colt.

I prefer we play the Patriot game again and trade back a few slots while compiling a few more picks, pick up the DE we need with the #1, then get the next best WR with the second #1, then get some CB/G/ILB/OLB with the extra picks and the second rounders...

Anyway, like you said, just because a guy is a stud doesn't mean he FITS and doesn't mean you want to draft him.

Nice post.
I agree a top wr like Blackmon suddenly makes hill more dangerous as well as our Tes who now see a safety float toward Blackmon. It helps the run game by teams not being able to stack the box.
Yet I am not sold on Pinkston as a LG and cannot pencil him in as a RT.
I think Lavaou is very slow and a huge liability as a pass blocker. I am not sure stieny can come back as well. we need a lot of help at oline.

[Flugel]

If we already had 2 solid WRs, 2 solid DEs, 2 solid OTs and didn't have the most depth at RB with a Peyton Hillis who SHOULD have been a much bigger priority than 1 Evan Moore - I would join the Richardson enthusiasts. I actually AGREE the kid is an absolute stud but we follow a team missing play makers everywhere BUT RB.

Now there's recently been an idea of trading our Colt McCoy for the equivalent in St Louis, whom we have been told just needs WRs that can make plays. The problem with Bradford is he's not very durable either even though some can only see greener grass. We're in a division where James Harrison gets the green light to treat defenseless players like Mel Gibson treats his ladies. And when a harmless fine gets thrown his way - he announces he's all done with the NFL and all the stupid Steelheads pay his fines. Meaning? Bradford will hold up behind center in that rivalry like my wife's china or Houston's version of China fragile: Yao "Ouch" Ming.

QB isn't an exact science and never has been regarding how quickly guys emerge. When SD waited 3 years to conclude Brees was ONLY a backup to the guy they were drafting 1st overall, they FINALLY added Gates and McCardell. Kind of interesting they were ONLY willing to add receiving targets when they used their first overall pick on a QB. Well, the hotshot QB held out while Brees had a breakout season going from 1 prong of attack (Tomlinson) to 3 prongs in 1 off season. They diagnosed a headache as a brain tumor that required an extensive exploratory surgery ONLY to realize the headache could have been treated better with 3 Advil tablets instead of 1. And YES I get good VETERAN QBs make everyone around them better like Brees does today. HOWEVER, when Brees was McCoy's NFL age in terms of being 22 starts old- he was ONLY seen as backup QB material regardless of hindsight 20/20 today. Young QBs on crappy teams get concussions like Aikman because they're waiting for guys that can't get open to get open while protection up front is suspect at best.

I read somebody saying there's a bunch of QB haters regarding the upcoming draft. I don't think 1 person on this board wants our QB position to remain looking like it's the most mismanaged/misguided position league-wide since 1999. I think some are willing to say the growing pains of a Troy Aikman, John Elway, Steve Young and Drew Brees during their first 32 starts was an accurate forecast of crappy QBs to follow. Guess what happened as soon as they got BETTER talent to work with? They woke up as the SAME QBs their franchises wanted them to be on draft day. How many Pro Bowls have those 4 guys combined for? Post season wins? How many are in or are headed for the NFL Hall of Fame? My point? As much as I adore Andrew Luck - if someone outbids us for his services - we're way past due putting talent into the following positions: DE, WR, RT, OLB, Safety, OG, CB. With Watson's recent head injury, it might even behoove us to see if there's another Jimmy Graham or Rob Gronkowski out there in the next draft.

Then, we can add Green Bay's Matt Damon clone to come in and give us about the same thing McCoy could just to please the greener grass enthusiasts. We've been changing QBs right and left without ever once asking WHY. That never stopped me from reminding people our PERSONNEL GURUS could have selected Aaron Rodgers instead of Braylon Edwards, Tom Brady instead of Spergon Wynne and Kurt Warner instead of Scott "+6" Milanovich. I mean why take a good Christian kid when we could grab the next Art Schlichter to bet on the opponent his team was playing against? That only needed to make sense in 1 city; and unfortunately it did. We were even in position to draft Roethlisberger so let's PLEASE understand the well earned mistrust we have with our front office getting the QB position right. We can't just sweep those recent Delhomme and McCoy complaints under the rug without asking how they all got here right? So what specifically is going to be different when we make our next QB acquisition? I say we add the GB backup to compete with McCoy and add some freakin gridiron chess pieces for a refreshing change. I'm a HUGE Luck fan but we would be the 1 franchise that wouldn't get the kid any help and pretend life with Greg Little is wonderful every time he drops the 3rd down pass that would have moved the chains. We can't just keep summarizing ALL the QB stink all the time when a guy like Garcia made Pro Bowls and postseasons before and after Cleveland. Why ask why when we can just turn on every single QB that got killed trying to help us.