Which would you pick RGIII or Blackmon

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

KoK has some interesting feelings RE: drafting a defensive player or something other than a skill position so we can suck bad again next year and have a reason to fire Shurmur/Holmgren. It has some merit to it.

I can't help it, I enjoy thinking outside the box. Plus i've seen the story play itself out elsewhere before. In fact one of the last times I watched it play out was with Shurmur's old bosses lucking their way into a playoff spot. I dunno about playoffs HERE but looking ahead what I could foresee is a Jeff Fisher type deal where this staff gets us to a perpetual .500 every season. Or alternately you could call it the poor man's Eagles syndrome. We all know how Lerner is, clueless about football and they'll be able to sucker him on being so close to a SB for another decade if they can manage .500 every season.

I don't like thinking like I am right now but it does seem like possibly the best thing to hope for.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

That being said, I just can't bring myself to think like that. This is the year we have a shot at a blue chip QB that is a stud in every category

I agree, i'd love to have Luck too. I dream about that possibility. I'm just not sure this F.O. has the balls to pull the trigger.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Stats be damned, RG3

But see it goes beyond stats. Stats were brought up by the HarrellIII defenders a few times and I used them to illustrate a point. It's not about stats, it's about the Big 12, a QB friendly conference that makes QB's look a helluva lot better than they are. It also is about the Offense he runs which does the same thing. Here, let me show you something. A list of Big 12 QB's.

Brad Smith- 8,000 yards passing, 4,000 rushing. Converted to punt returner.
Michael Bishop- CFL practice squad player.
Reggie McNeal- CFL Wide Receiver
Eric Crouch- Bounced around a few practice squads and is now an Arena League QB.
Stephen McGee- Career backup
Josh Heupel- Couldn't stick as a practice squad QB anywhere, retired.
Jason White- Heisman winner, never drafted.
Koy Detmer- Career backup
Chris Simms- Career backup
Sage Rosenfels- Career backup
Graham Harrell- Had to play in the CFL for awhile, fighting to keep a practice squad spot.
Jerrod Johnson- AFL QB
Seneca Wallace- Need I say?
Josh Freeman- 1st round bust
Vince Young- 1st round bust
Blaine Gabbert- 1st round bust
Colt McCoy- Everyone wants to replace him so....
Sam Bradford- Everyone but me on the board believes him to be another 1st round bust so...

Most all of these guys were "elite QB prospects with everything and more" too. They didn't work out. The Big 12 QB highlight begins and ends with All He Do Is Slit His Wrists.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

I mean how many 1st round draft picks have we missed on since our return? Let's try to strike gold this year at the most important position there is ...while we still can.

If my latest idea comes to fruition? We'll be able to grab an elite QB prospect next year. Without major upgrades on offense does anyone truly see this team winning more than a game or two? I don't. Although if we did draft HarrellIII there's a posibility the same thing happens so subconsciously you may be onto something.

[next2nothing]

Originally Posted by Greythan

I hear you but your post is dripping with desperation and that's what scares me about RGIII. If an objective, high-quality evaluation by our staff has the guy rated as "can't miss" or even just a notch below that.... I'm okay with taking him. Anything less and you're giving in to desperation and that rarely works out.

Agreed.

This is hypothetical as hell and you could say it about any guy in the draft but here it goes.

If you take RGIII, you have to come to terms that he is a project QB. He is not going to come in and be good in this WCO right off the bat. End of story. The guy has played in a system that gives option QB's the edge all through college and will have to learn how to play under center instead of in the shotgun.

With that being said... would you take RGIII in this draft KNOWING he is not going to play like that #4 slot right off the bat and he also may never play up to that #4 slot? RGIII is going to have a TON to learn to transition from the wide open offense of Baylor and throwing against garbage defenses in the Big 12 to playing under center, in a pure timing offense, against 2 of the best defenses in the NFL every year (Pitt and Baltimore).

If you want to say "no risk, no gain" then risk a lot of picks and move up to take Luck. Don't waste the #4 on a guy who is going to have to take big steps, I'm talking man on the moon steps, to be a good QB in the NFL.

[King of Kings]

Okay I figure this is the best place to toss this. One of Heckert's guys is the current frontrunner for the Colts GM job. Providing the overwhelming word from the insiders is true, that Colts plan on sticking with Manning... I'll just let you folks ponder the rest.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

But see it goes beyond stats. Stats were brought up by the HarrellIII defenders a few times and I used them to illustrate a point. It's not about stats, it's about the Big 12, a QB friendly conference that makes QB's look a helluva lot better than they are. It also is about the Offense he runs which does the same thing. Here, let me show you something. A list of Big 12 QB's.

Brad Smith- 8,000 yards passing, 4,000 rushing. Converted to punt returner.
Michael Bishop- CFL practice squad player.
Reggie McNeal- CFL Wide Receiver
Eric Crouch- Bounced around a few practice squads and is now an Arena League QB.
Stephen McGee- Career backup
Josh Heupel- Couldn't stick as a practice squad QB anywhere, retired.
Jason White- Heisman winner, never drafted.
Koy Detmer- Career backup
Chris Simms- Career backup
Sage Rosenfels- Career backup
Graham Harrell- Had to play in the CFL for awhile, fighting to keep a practice squad spot.
Jerrod Johnson- AFL QB
Seneca Wallace- Need I say?
Josh Freeman- 1st round bust
Vince Young- 1st round bust
Blaine Gabbert- 1st round bust
Colt McCoy- Everyone wants to replace him so....
Sam Bradford- Everyone but me on the board believes him to be another 1st round bust so...

Take a bow for the great research there KOKs. Now THAT is defending where one is coming from. There's also the short QB who backs up Brees out of Mizzou who's name escapes me. Oklahoma State had a very productive, athletic QB Robinson who got drafted by NE a couple years ago before he was last spotted trying to make the Bengals. Hardly any of these guys are panning out so your smoke has some fire.

If there is one slight disagreement. VY was doing good until he pulled a hammy, then a groin; and then it was time to be a pocket passer he wasn't born to be. I don't want to get too distracted on that though.

I do not DISLIKE RGIII at all. I just haven't seen enough of him to pretend I know either way. Your reminders of the same system Graham Harrell put up unparalleled stats really got me re-thinking some previous excitement I had about RGIII. I almost typed HarrellIII. Good Lord! I've seen 2 RGIII regular season appearances the entire time he was in college. Both were alot of fun to watch and RGIII made some plays. This is where your arguement comes in KOKs. HOW do we know what he has translates?

If we draft the kid, I'll be his biggest fan like I am with every QB we draft. I had a Browns fan once ask me why I wanted Charlie Frye to succeed. True story believe it or not. It's as simple as he's the guy my favorite team drafted. Who would have ever thought that required an explanation; but it did. This went on all year with McCoy and I started to lose patience with people about it.

[Thaid_Up]

Originally Posted by Flugel

If we draft the kid, I'll be his biggest fan like I am with every QB we draft. I had a Browns fan once ask me why I wanted Charlie Frye to succeed. True story believe it or not. It's as simple as he's the guy my favorite team drafted. Who would have ever thought that required an explanation; but it did. This went on all year with McCoy and I started to lose patience with people about it.

Ah and that is where we venture into the world of so called experts on forums and message boards and "get any story out there now" media. You're on the same page as I am with the he's the player my team drafted and not the "my team didn't draft the player I wanted so if that guy screws up ONCE it's war." I'd rather fill other needs besides QB with our 1st rd picks but if the Browns take RGIII (or HarrellIII to pay homage to the King) I'll be rooting for him loud and proud.

[BrownieBornAndRaised]

Originally Posted by Flugel

There's also the short QB who backs up Brees out of Mizzou who's name escapes me.

Chase Daniels is who your thinking about. Mizzou also had Brad Smith before Daniels whos playing WR for Buffalo now after spending quite a few years with the NYJ. And then Daniel's successor Blaine Gabbert is lighting up the NFL with the Jacksonville Jaguars

You can also add all the other qb's that Leach had at Texas Tech besides Harrell since all put up great numbers in that wide open sling the ball over offense but did squat in the NFL. Kliff Kingsbury, B.J. Symons, Sonny Cumbie, and Cody Hodges.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

Here, let me show you something. A list of Big 12 QB's, that didn't have all of the tools that RG3 has.

*Fixed.


It's a nice argument KoK. You know I understand where you are coming from, but I still find it to be a less than infallible argument ...to say the least.

None of those QBs you listed had the brain to graduate a year early, a really good arm, nice accuracy on short intermediate & deep routes, & sub 4.3 speed COMBINED. Maybe one of those guys had 2 of those qualities?

Thing is, anybody can point to any conference or any system for that matter, and reel off a huge list of QBs who didn't make it in the NFL ...most of them don't.

Although your arguments do make those who want to hold on to Colt (I'm afraid of being pushed too hard) McCoy, want to clap with glee ...nothing is an absolute at this point, and you simply can't make the statement that RG3 will fail simply because there's never been an RG3 to enter the NFL before.

He's got everything you could ever want in a QB and then some.

2 things he lacks ...height, although I have heard some say he's a tall 6'3, and the only other true knock on him is his footwork from time to time, which is exceedingly teachable.

I'm not going to knock on wood, and hope we get to suffer through another abysmal season next year so we can grab our franchise QB next draft. No flippin way.

Holmgren said he expected a .500 football team this past season ...if we even get to .500 next season be prepared for a medocre to below average QB for the next decade.

[Alo]

Robert Griffin the 3rd

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

*Fixed.


It's a nice argument KoK. You know I understand where you are coming from, but I still find it to be a less than infallible argument ...to say the least.

None of those QBs you listed had the brain to graduate a year early, a really good arm, nice accuracy on short intermediate & deep routes, & sub 4.3 speed COMBINED. Maybe one of those guys had 2 of those qualities?

Well let's go through some of these. I give him all the credit in the world for graduating from his course in Communications early. You're right, those other QB's didn't graduate from one of the easiest courses in College a year early.

The rest though i'll point to All He Do Is Try Suicide as he was the last "cannon armed QB" from the Big 12 that was supposed to "revolutionize the game" and run his way to championships with blazing speed. Unfortunately the 4.3 speed part means dick if he's going to play QB. No QB ever has or ever will run their way to championships except for my luck Teblow 316.

That leaves the rest. That leaves Sam Bradford that I can name off the top of my head. Accurate, really nice arm, intelligent and so on. Maybe Blaine Gabbert as well. For the 3rd I seem to recall last season these draftniks were all over Jerrod Johnson with the same accolades and "surefire 1st rounder" until they found Scam to hype the hell out of instead.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Thing is, anybody can point to any conference or any system for that matter, and reel off a huge list of QBs who didn't make it in the NFL ...most of them don't.

Although your arguments do make those who want to hold on to Colt (I'm afraid of being pushed to hard) McCoy, want to clap with glee ...nothing is an absolute at this point, and you simply can't make the statement that RG3 will fail simply because there's never been an RG3 to enter the NFL before.

Sure there has. IIRC his nickname is Dog Killer and he really, really really promises to finally become an NFL caliber QB in year 10. All He Do Is Write Dark Poetry could also be put into the same slot.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

2 things he lacks ...height, although I have heard some say he's a tall 6'3, and the only other true knock on him is his footwork from time to time, which is exceedingly teachable.

I can name more than two off the top of my head bro. Here goes....

No experience taking snaps under center
No experience in anything resembling an NFL offense
No experience making complex reads
No experience threading passes into tight, NFL caliber windows
Minimal experience working the pocket
Minimal to no experience making 3, 5 or 7 step drops.
Comes from the Spread offense
Comes from the AFL of NCAA
One read then run style QB
Short(Everything i've seen lists him as 6'2" which translated means about 6'1")

Next2Nothing is correct, the hype machine aside we're talking about a project QB. Someone you'll have to literally sit on a bench Rodgers style and reteach if he is to reach the "unlimited upside" he supposedly has. Except we wouldn't have that luxury which means trying to teach a QB to take snaps from center, make 3-5-7 step drops, work the pocket, make more than one read AND learn the outdated WCO from day one out the gate.... Against Pittsburgh's, Baltimore's and Cincinnati's defenses. Add in trying to thread the needle, well learn HOW to thread the needle against Troy P, Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, James HGHarrison's pass rush, Geno Atkins passrush and Defenses like he has NEVER experienced before.

It won't be pretty. I say won't be because I have this gut feeling you get your HarrellIII wish. Call it a hunch. Despite my dreams of Luck, or taking Claiborne and getting a competent staff in here I am fairly certain as I think everyone else is that you'll be getting your wish. Let's just call it history repeating itself, ironically a history that nearly cost that 500lb sweat hog in Philly his job last year and no doubt will cost him his job this year.

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

Holmgren said he expected a .500 football team this past season ...if we even get to .500 next season be prepared for a medocre to below average QB for the next decade.

Bro you should know better than anyone what Holmgren expects and what happens rarely ever meet. The guy is in over his head and clueless. The only way his boy gets to .500 is if this Offense gets stacked with elite talent he can coach down. My predict? If you get your man and we get a WR upgrade we go to 4-12 next year. If you don't and we don't we go 1-15 next year.

[Solon16]

RG3 announces he will enter draft...I retract my statement of Blackmon NOT being available to us when we pick...Is Barrett Jones declaring? I could see Khalil and Jones both going after Luck 2, 3 and Blackmon falling to us...!

[next2nothing]

I honestly feel like we're in a win-win scenario at four.

If a team trades up with St.Louis or Minnie then it's possible Blackmon falls to us OR if RG3 is there when we're up (and we don't take him) we could make a nice trade back and acquire more picks.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

Bro you should know better than anyone what Holmgren expects and what happens rarely ever meet. The guy is in over his head and clueless. The only way his boy gets to .500 is if this Offense gets stacked with elite talent he can coach down. My predict? If you get your man and we get a WR upgrade we go to 4-12 next year. If you don't and we don't we go 1-15 next year.

Stop it already. lol After one of, if not THE toughest season I have ever had to endure as a Browns fan, and becoming more apathetic than I have ever thought I could be about the Browns ....I am trying to find some way to be POSITIVE!