Word out of Berea is ....

[JewDago]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

I live in AZ and thus get to watch all the Sun Devils games. I'm going to tell you a secret. He's the most overrated player in this draft. He has the mentality and maturity of a 5 year old and plays sloppy and undisciplined football. I'd compare him to a less mature, slightly less talented Rey Maualuga who ended up horrible in the NFL and even admits he sucks and shouldn't be a starter. If you want a LB? We can't go wrong with Luke Kuechly or Dont'a Hightower. Much safer picks and far superior Athletes.

this. burfict is awful. i'm in pac-12 country and watched him a lot, and the only thing i saw him do was amass personal fouls. ooooh, he's intense; he's also an utter moron. he'd be an utterly wasted pick, like mike junkin all over again.

[Legendary]

recruit top defenders then win every game with a phil dawson solo field goal and Cleveland Browns become first team to win

16-0 with 3-0 every game
Phil Dawson to score 19 fields goals a season and win the superbowl by himself and our defence.

Great plan. Would the fans get bored not seeing a touchdown in any of Cleveland Browns game.

[hoorta]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

I'm feeling a little crazy today SoCal, like I just had an epiphany. I might have, or maybe it's just angina. Who knows but let's flow with it for a moment...

First we gotta go back to some events over the last year again. Look, we all know Shurmur isn't going to pan out. Some hold out hope that he will and try to preach continuity. We all know what's what though. The game is too big for him and this is a weakminded loser with the losers mentality, throwing the blame on everyone but himself while making excuses. People like that don't succeed in life and they don't have success in the pro sports business. You simply can't grow from a mindset like that or improve because in your head there's nada to improve ON. He'll be the same as he was last year, and the year before and the year before. We all know that OUR media eats guys like that alive, it's only a matter of time before Mary Cay and Bud and everyone but the moron Tony Grossi is sucking the marrow from the skeletal remains of Pat Shurmur.

We also know a few other things. We know that his "uncle" is going down with him. I'll admit it's somewhat honorable in its own way. Stupid but honorable. We also know that Uncle Mike is cracking. This Cleveland gig wasn't what he expected. He didn't expect X's and O's football people as fans. He thought it would be like Seattle, a grouping of lemmings who only know what BSPN tell them. He's unable to pull one over on Ohioans and he's cracking. Not to mention he doesn't give a shit.

So what's this have to do with Claiborn? Let's call it the bandaid effect. We know what changes have to be made, what needs to be done. QB's, WR's, all that is putting a temporary bandaid on the problem. Sure we may go 7-9 or even 8-8 with those upgrades but that's simply throwing a bandaid over our wounds. We're going to trap ourselves in that place and drafting #9-#19 every year. Maybe Claiborn isn't the bandaid effect. Maybe drafting Claiborn or another Defensive player is an act of ripping that bandaid off as quick as possible. Let's face reality, we're a 1-2 win team with this current staff, no offensive upgrades and with a schedule even nominally tougher than the one we just finished.

Now I know what you're thinking, hope to lose? Not quite. Moreso accept what is in front of us and hope it goes by as quickly as possible. Drafting D? It'll make it go by REAL quick. There is no humanly possible way these guys keep their jobs if they drop down to 1-2 wins. None. That will be two years of regression in H&H's 3rd year and Shurmur's 2nd. They will be exposed for what they are and Lerner will be backed into a corner. Make the changes or follow your word and sell this franchise to someone who will. My guess is if he sticks to that this team goes up for sale by week 8 and by week 16 Ed DeBartolo Jr finally gets his way and buys the Browns. At the very least he'll HAVE TO make changes in the F.O. and coaching staff.

But also we'll be drafting #1 overall. We're already down to the #4 spot, a few less wins and we'll be sitting in #1. New staff and the firepower to get a franchise QB, an elite WR and be back in business. Now i'm not saying DON'T take a WR but maybe instead of a Pro Ready Blackmon or Jeffery we take a Nick Toon or Juron Criner, a guy who'll need a season or two to come on strong. I would kinda hope. Maybe we draft a Guard or two that just needs a little coaching up. Maybe we fill two more holes on the D instead of using our major firepower on offense. We hope that they build the cockpit well enough the next crew can step in and add his pieces and coach up what is here and build the Offense he wants.

Maybe i'm going crazy from a decade of losing. Maybe the Browns are driving me to the funny farm with a padded room. Or maybe their being in love with Claiborn, reportedly is a hidden Godsend from up above. Maybe these idiots dipping into the Defense well one more time, hopefully two more times is what's best for the Browns LONGTERM. Drafting Claiborn at #4 could be the best thing to ever happen to this franchise or maybe i'm just being optimistic again.

Geeze, "suck for Luck" except this time it's Barkley instead. Barkley ain't no Luck, he'll be damn "lucky" if he's another Carson Palmer. Beware USC quarterbacks!!!

BTW, if Blackmon is off the board, I have no problem with the Browns either trading down, or taking BPA on defense- sorry, not a CB. Get me a bookend DE opposite Sheard, or the best LB on the board.

The only thing I'll agree with you on is PattyCakes Shurmer sucked majorly this year, and I have little hope for improvement. Maybe an OC that has a few communicating neurons could help.

I've had enough of "Rinse, wash, Repeat, blow it all up" again. You might be amenable to yet another housecleaning, but I'll warrant 40% of the hardcore fanbase isn't. Send Holmgren into retirement, Heckert gets run out of town with him. Tom may not have drafted perfectly, but he's been a damnsite better than anyone else we've had since '99. Did your epiphany give you a better crew in mind? Praying Polian may be interested in coming here with his kid in tow?

Regarding Clayborne, it's been pointed out having two stud corners didn't help the Jets or Eagles all that much no? Exhibit "B" would be the Squealers- Broncos game. With a studly front seven, Ike Taylor could be hidden. Take Kiesel and Hampton out of the equation with Poly-moo-moo spying on Tebow, and Ike ain't so hot, unless you like toast.

Speaking of Pittsburgh, they've drafted lower than the Browns every freaking year like about forever- so sorry, ain't where you draft, it's how you draft. And I won't bore you with all the Pro Bowlers (and a couple of future HOFers) the Browns weren't smart enough to take when their number was called in April.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by hoorta

Geeze, "suck for Luck" except this time it's Barkley instead. Barkley ain't no Luck, he'll be damn "lucky" if he's another Carson Palmer. Beware USC quarterbacks!!!

BTW, if Blackmon is off the board, I have no problem with the Browns either trading down, or taking BPA on defense- sorry, not a CB. Get me a bookend DE opposite Sheard, or the best LB on the board.

The only thing I'll agree with you on is PattyCakes Shurmer sucked majorly this year, and I have little hope for improvement. Maybe an OC that has a few communicating neurons could help.

I've had enough of "Rinse, wash, Repeat, blow it all up" again. You might be amenable to yet another housecleaning, but I'll warrant 40% of the hardcore fanbase isn't. Send Holmgren into retirement, Heckert gets run out of town with him. Tom may not have drafted perfectly, but he's been a damnsite better than anyone else we've had since '99. Did your epiphany give you a better crew in mind? Praying Polian may be interested in coming here with his kid in tow?

Regarding Clayborne, it's been pointed out having two stud corners didn't help the Jets or Eagles all that much no? Exhibit "B" would be the Squealers- Broncos game. With a studly front seven, Ike Taylor could be hidden. Take Kiesel and Hampton out of the equation with Poly-moo-moo spying on Tebow, and Ike ain't so hot, unless you like toast.

Speaking of Pittsburgh, they've drafted lower than the Browns every freaking year like about forever- so sorry, ain't where you draft, it's how you draft. And I won't bore you with all the Pro Bowlers (and a couple of future HOFers) the Browns weren't smart enough to take when their number was called in April.

Nice post Hoorta! Barkley has never been asked to take a snap on a team without talent at any level thus far. Mater Dei has been one of the elite high school teams in the country dating back as far into the mid 90s. Woods is arguably the best WR in the country heading into his junior year. Meanwhile, the Cleveland Browns drafted USC's backup TE to get an idea of the difference between what Barkley works with and what ANY QB in Cleveland gets sentenced to. Greg Little has the worst hands in the AFC and we've seen how clostrophobic he gets in traffic.

We've ALWAYS walked players like LaMarr Woodley and Mike Wallace and Antonio Brown right over to Pittsburgh. For what it's worth, we even did that with Roethlisberger when wee preferred the next Evil Kneival. It took 3 years to get 1 year out of Winslow and then he could never practice between the 4-5 surgeries thereafter.

Magically, we've always alternated blaming the Head Coach and the QB for 100% of our problems as if everything else was just perfect.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by hoorta

Geeze, "suck for Luck" except this time it's Barkley instead. Barkley ain't no Luck, he'll be damn "lucky" if he's another Carson Palmer.

He has vastly superior skills to Carson Palmer who prior to the injuries piling up was he unquestional #2 QB in the NFL, second only to Manning. Hey if that's Barkley's ceiling i'll gladly take it. Then again I don't have an irrational hatred for the kid because he plays for BW's College team and BW likes him.

Originally Posted by hoorta

I've had enough of "Rinse, wash, Repeat, blow it all up" again. You might be amenable to yet another housecleaning, but I'll warrant 40% of the hardcore fanbase isn't.

40%? I'd say more like about 10% but that's just me.

Originally Posted by hoorta

Send Holmgren into retirement, Heckert gets run out of town with him.

Good. Tom Savage, I mean Heckert needs to be sent packing alongside the other two.

Originally Posted by hoorta

Did your epiphany give you a better crew in mind? Praying Polian may be interested in coming here with his kid in tow?

I don't need to pray, plus i'm not a Christian, sorry. Would I like the Polians here? Hell yeah, who in there right mind wouldn't? It would be my hope Lerner eventually realizes that they would be far superior options than the 3 stooges(Mikey, Tommy and Pat). I'm not holding out TOO much hope though, afterall this IS Randy Lerner we are talking about.

Originally Posted by hoorta

Speaking of Pittsburgh, they've drafted lower than the Browns every freaking year like about forever- so sorry, ain't where you draft, it's how you draft. And I won't bore you with all the Pro Bowlers (and a couple of future HOFers) the Browns weren't smart enough to take when their number was called in April.

Browns could have taken them but unfortunately for the Browns we can't have OUR Doctor walking around the locker room handing out PED's like candy. I'm so sick of hearing about Pittspuke everytime the draft comes up. It's not exactly hard to hit on most of your picks when you have the benefit of being able to juice them up. What, you thought the fact everyone ADDS 30lbs of lean muscle within 6 months of becoming a Steeler and looks like they're ready to pose in their grape smugglers was normal? No dice.

Get back to me when Goodell holds them to the same standard as everyone else and they can no longer have their 'Roid doctors onsite to juice up their rookies.

[hoorta]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

He has vastly superior skills to Carson Palmer who prior to the injuries piling up was he unquestional #2 QB in the NFL, second only to Manning. Hey if that's Barkley's ceiling i'll gladly take it. Then again I don't have an irrational hatred for the kid because he plays for BW's College team and BW likes him.

Good. Tom Savage, I mean Heckert needs to be sent packing alongside the other two.

Barkley has vastly superior skills? If he was in the 2012 draft, I'd bet he'd be the third qb taken after Luck and RG III. Just MHO.

So why the Heckert hatred? That grass is always greener. Tom screwed up twice, taking a flyer on Hardesty, letting Vickers walk and drafting Marecic. I haven't seen him giving away a second round pick to move up one slot to draft a stunt mortorcycle driver, or using a #3 overall on a WR that can't catch a cold.

So Goodell is still letting the Steelers 'roid it up, and smacking any other team that tries to pull the same stunt? Really?

Edit: IIRC, you're in Arizona. Lerner and H&H are going to get the message loud and clear in April when the season ticket renewal letters go out. 2013 will be too damn late to "turn it around", especially if the Browns suck yet again this year. Lifers like me who are married to our seats will re-up, but folks in the cheap seats are pretty much done until the product improves. People are damn tired of seeing teams like the 49ers and Bengals go from zero to 60 in one season while the Browns spin their tires yet again in the basement mud. Frankly, I'm shocked the Browns were still able to call those home games sell outs, with 1\2 the upper deck empty. I'm not saying playoffs or bust, but a vastly improved product is mandatory this year.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by hoorta

Barkley has vastly superior skills? If he was in the 2012 draft, I'd bet he'd be the third qb taken after Luck and RG III. Just MHO.

I have this gut feeling, call it a hunch if you will that IF by some miracle from baby Jesus in his little manger Cleveland passes on HarrellIII? He falls like the Pickle. Maybe not but it's a possibility.

Originally Posted by hoorta

So why the Heckert hatred?

I have this aversion, this massive flame of dislike for bad GM's. I can't help it, I just don't like them.

Originally Posted by hoorta

I haven't seen him giving away a second round pick to move up one slot to draft a stunt mortorcycle driver, or using a #3 overall on a WR that can't catch a cold.

No just valuable draft picks for Andy Reid's breadcrumbs. And half a drafts worth of draft picks for an injury prone RB. AND an extra 3rd to move up and draft some fatass NT so Rubin could play out of his natural position. You know, when he's not snubbing good players on the team while handing premium money to Andy Reid's breadcrumbs.

Originally Posted by hoorta

So Goodell is still letting the Steelers 'roid it up, and smacking any other team that tries to pull the same stunt? Really?

Show me where any investigation was launched and punishment served when they were caught having six figures worth of PED's ordered from underground distro's and shipped to their training facilities a few years back. Show me that and i'll retract the statement. Oh, right, Goodell said their explanation that their Doctor was ordering HGH, Dianabol, Test Prop, Deca Durabolin, Anavar ect ect for his elderly patients he see's on his off time was good enough for him and it made total sense 90 year olds would be juicing themselves to the gills. Meanwhile Harrison was beating the fuck out of his girlfriend while their kicker used his 20" biceps to tear apart a mens restroom in a totally random moment of rage.

It is what it is, they've been doing it for going on 40 years now and the NFL brushed it under the rug when they were finally caught red handed. I'll believe it when 90% of their roster stops looking like pro bodybuilders but that's just me.

Originally Posted by hoorta

Edit: IIRC, you're in Arizona.

And? I still have family in Cleveland, I still vacation that way and with the invention of the internet I still follow the local media. I'm not seeing a whole lot of "aw shucks guys let's keep this staff" going on. I'm seeing, reading and hearing ALOT of people ready for Holmgren and his sycophants to go back to Seattle. Many seem to be hoping he takes Lerner with him. I can't say that I disagree. Which brings me to....

Originally Posted by hoorta

Lerner and H&H are going to get the message loud and clear in April when the season ticket renewal letters go out.

I would certainly hope so, especially after the way he talked down to ticket buyers and PSA holders during his presser basically saying he could give a fuck less, someone else will buy those tickets.

[hoorta]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

I would certainly hope so, especially after the way he talked down to ticket buyers and PSA holders during his presser basically saying he could give a fuck less, someone else will buy those tickets.

Well, Mikey, you're going to get a reality check come May. 99.9% certain there isn't a waiting list for PSLs, and I foresee significant dumping in 2012.

Why? You did hit this nail on the head KOK- because if you were at the games, it was unbelievably painful to watch Turd-mer Turtle ball. The season's in the toilet, so let's punt on the opponent 42 on 4th and one- with a healthy Hillis.

A little bit of perspective from the not so cheap seats. When the Browns came back in '99 I knew it was now or never to get decent seating, so I asked my lifelong friend I went to HS and college with to get me a couple of extra seats on his seniority- which was 17 years worth at the time. In case you're interested, that got you last row in the upper deck on the 50- and I do mean LAST ROW. Well over the years, we've worked our way down to 20 yard line field level. I get quite a hoot out of the morons who say- well just give up those seats in protest. Sure- you got $30,000 for me to buy them back on e-Bay or Craiglist when the Browns start playing decent football again?

Points are: 1) I was absolutely disgusted New Years Day being surrounded by a few hundred frontrunner Steeler fans- Section 111 is all season ticket holders- seems my fellow Browns fans would rather make a quick buck off the opposing teams, than actually show up for the game. I'd burn my tickets before I'd ever sell them to a Steelers fan, even at 3-4X face value which is the going aftermarket rate there. 2) Now if you're up in the rafters, it's an entirely different story. Nosebleeds are easily obtainable- and there's going to be thousands of them up for sale come April. IMHO, there will be plenty of PSL dumping in that category, because the respective owners will be certain they can get single game tickets in about the same area, and they're not going to get reamed for full freight on two meaningless preseason games in the process. (Obtainable on StubHub for $5, I checked last year) Field level between the 25 yard lines? Sorry Charlie different story- those are all corporate, or get handed down in wills.

And on a personal level- if I don't see improvement- I'm going to start giving away my tickets to the nieces and nephews in Cleveland. I have better things to do with my weekends than make the 7 hour and 440 mile round trip drive from Dayton to Cleveland to watch crap coaching and football.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by hoorta

Well, Mikey, you're going to get a reality check come May. 99.9% certain there isn't a waiting list for PSLs, and I foresee significant dumping in 2012.

Why? You did hit this nail on the head KOK- because if you were at the games, it was unbelievably painful to watch Turd-mer Turtle ball. The season's in the toilet, so let's punt on the opponent 42 on 4th and one- with a healthy Hillis.

A little bit of perspective from the not so cheap seats. When the Browns came back in '99 I knew it was now or never to get decent seating, so I asked my lifelong friend I went to HS and college with to get me a couple of extra seats on his seniority- which was 17 years worth at the time. In case you're interested, that got you last row in the upper deck on the 50- and I do mean LAST ROW. Well over the years, we've worked our way down to 20 yard line field level. I get quite a hoot out of the morons who say- well just give up those seats in protest. Sure- you got $30,000 for me to buy them back on e-Bay or Craiglist when the Browns start playing decent football again?

Points are: 1) I was absolutely disgusted New Years Day being surrounded by a few hundred frontrunner Steeler fans- Section 111 is all season ticket holders- seems my fellow Browns fans would rather make a quick buck off the opposing teams, than actually show up for the game. I'd burn my tickets before I'd ever sell them to a Steelers fan, even at 3-4X face value which is the going aftermarket rate there. 2) Now if you're up in the rafters, it's an entirely different story. Nosebleeds are easily obtainable- and there's going to be thousands of them up for sale come April. IMHO, there will be plenty of PSL dumping in that category, because the respective owners will be certain they can get single game tickets in about the same area, and they're not going to get reamed for full freight on two meaningless preseason games in the process. (Obtainable on StubHub for $5, I checked last year) Field level between the 25 yard lines? Sorry Charlie different story- those are all corporate, or get handed down in wills.

And on a personal level- if I don't see improvement- I'm going to start giving away my tickets to the nieces and nephews in Cleveland. I have better things to do with my weekends than make the 7 hour and 440 mile round trip drive from Dayton to Cleveland to watch crap coaching and football.

Interesting stuff Hoorta. I fully understand your feelings on selling to Stools fans. I think some have a rationalization going though, or maybe HAD a rationalization going that a stadium full of piss soaked towels being slung around would embarrass the F.O. enough to affect change. The problem with that is it only works if the F.O. actually CARES about that sort of thing. As Mikey pointed out, he doesn't.

A better idea would have been to keep the tickets and just not go. Everyone should do that, have a 1/4 full stadium every home game and I guarantee those above Holmgren's head take notice very very quickly at THAT. Maybe this season that's how it'll go.