This Weekend

[lemosley01]

While McCoy didn't have an off-season to work on the WCO, he did have game days - nothing prepares your for playing real games like playing real games.

My question is, did he get better, worse, or stay the same as the season progressed. I believe the answer is one of the last two.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by lemosley01

While McCoy didn't have an off-season to work on the WCO, he did have game days - nothing prepares your for playing real games like playing real games.

My question is, did he get better, worse, or stay the same as the season progressed. I believe the answer is one of the last two.

Did he stay in the same offense where he averaged 7.1 yards per completion or did he get a new play book that asked him to throw into a crowded phone both? I get the impression he was throwing alot of passes away this year so of course we wouldn't want to credit his mental preparation and cognitive side of it all. Can't do such a thing if we have to paint the kid as Charlie Frye now can we?

The playbook changes after just 8 starts matters more than us casual fans want it to. Whoever covered the SF-Saints game felt compelled to remind viewers and listeners that Alex Smith has had to learn 7 brand new offenses in just 7 years. When he got the right one - he's in a Championship game right? Lemo, he wasn't epitomizing "all set" within the first 3 years at all.

I got his numbers from the first 3 years on the QB stats thread along with John Elway's, Steve Young's, Drew Brees', Troy Aikman's. If we go back even further Terry Bradshaw was getting benched in his 4th season for either Joe Gilliam or Terry's Handsareratty. All of sudden Swann, Stallworth, and Franco Harris were in the lineup and the metamorphisis was just like that of Brees when Gates and McCardell arrived. Again, go look at Brees' numbers and ratings in the QB stats thread to see he wasn't accurate when ALL routes were contested in traffic for the first 3 years. They drafted a QB 1st overall because of that. Very similar to what you want me to see in your point about McCoy.

YOUNG QBs prior to growing pains aren't ready to make all others around them better. Once they have promising weapons, chemistry and an understanding of the offense - they improve to the point where they make all others better.

Everybody wants the rookie sensation without the potty training. At the very first accident - the masses turn on them and start looking at mock drafts in October. I've listened to a few self proclaimed QB experts that have displayed ZERO understanding of the maturation process in terms of promising QB prospects sentenced to the terrors of an NFL franchise in transition and chaos.

About the new offense, which WR or even TE showed you he grasped it? Compare the seasons Watson had from 2010 to 2011 even when healthy. The ONLY guy that got better was Cribbs which would only mean remvong him for the MoMass who got WAY worse than you've ever seen him. It didn't matter what QB was putting the ball in his hands - it was still landing on the ground.

NOW, I'm hearing let's just bring in a rookie QB after Andrew Luck goes elsewhere and pretend the coaching everybody complained about will be terrific this time around. Yaaa, that makes tons of sense. FWIW, when McCoy was in that Big 12 a record of 10-3 would have been one of his worst seasons. That is why you heard about him as early as the red shirt Freshman year.

All I'm asking for is scoring weapons we clearly don't have. This way if we get the dream QB everyone wants - it's a Walt Disney happily ever after instead of mock drafts in October again. I can't tell you how many times I've seen AJ Green, Calvin Johnson, Vernon Davis and Jimmy Graham change the complexion of a ball game.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

I was watching the games, and Wallace looked better going against some of the NFLs toughest defenses.

Don't get me wrong, I am no Wallace fan, but when you see a guy like Wallace throwing a more catchable ball, going through more reads, and throwing down field more than your flippin' starter, it might be time to turn the page.

He led us to 7 points vrs Baltimore while Cribbs added an 84 yard punt return. Let's not pretend that was a 100% upgrade from a guy that hasn't won a start in Cleveland on a 6 million $ salary. Wasn't he supposed to be an experienced and efficient WCO QB? In the 1st Pitt game, McCoy took us to the goal line in the first 5 plays and the TD got reversed on replay. We kicked a FG from the 1 yard line just 1 or 2 plays later. Hard to blame the QB there right? I WILL fault him for the INT just 2 plays after the head trauma.

Gabe, all you want to do is call dead grass greener grass here. Last year at this time I was reading all about Kevin Kolb's greener grass all over this message board. His grass is getting nurtured in a desert. He did so wonderful we might be able to get him for the price of 2 waterboys and 1 bag of potato chips.

There's no Steve Smith here to throw the football as far as we can to between scrambles and QB draw plays. I forgot what thread you said this but you told me in a paraphrase here that the reason to give up on our QB only 21 starts old is because the NEW Head Coach can't teach offense well enough to get the kid to the level he needs to play at. Your solution? Just draft another inexperienced QB in to expose him to the same coach. You just jack hammered your entire point.

How many Baylor games have you watched in the last 4 years to give you this definite football messiah epiphany? How do you know that's not just the 2nd coming of Akili Smith off of Pac 10 Player of the Year honors immediately following "where did he come from?"

It was just a few years ago when Jamarcus Russell and Brady Quinn were flying up the mock drafts everywhere. And why? Supply and demand sucked bad enough. The problem was it became the time of year to Michaelangelo up 2 Peyton Mannings that seemingly every draft continues to promise teams in search of. Which of those 1st round draft picks became miracle workers for their franchises? The only when left backs up the wildcat QB all over again in the Rocky Mts.

Reality is McCoy had 8 starts with better numbers in Mangini's offense after observing Delhomme and Wallace fail. Because we don't have AJ Green here to catch alley ooops and rainbows from a McCoy clone - the install of a new playbook without OTAs didn't look as wonderful. The FIRST time McCoy faced Dalton - they needed our defense to stay in the huddle while Bruce Gradkowski no huddled us to a TD reception with AJ Green. That 1 play was the difference between Cincy making the playoffs and TN not making them.

Do you honestly think if we swapped QBs with Cincy that things would have turned out any different? And what if Alex Smith went back to the same surroundings he had his first 2-3 years without Harbaugh, would he be 1 game from SB Sunday? They say play makers get you to the playoffs and the BEST balance of playmakers on both sides of the ball WINS you the Championship. (IE: Clay Matthews causing fumble and the GB Safety that intercepted #7 for a TD in the SB as well the passing hookups made). How many TDs did our defense score in 2011? How many of our receivers could start anywhere but Cleveland?

Let's get to work. I'm all for giddy up and get after it with adding playmakers that change scoreboards here. THEN, we can tell if the QB is the anchor or not. Having said that, I have zero problem with addi a Case Keenum

[lemosley01]

Tom, my eyes told me that he wasn't getting better. 'Staying the same' would be best case, but I think he got worse.

That might be due to a variety of factors, but he didn't seem to improve. The big things I notice is that he is still scattershot with his passes - they are behind or too low too much.

IMO, if we can't get Luck, then we stay with McCoy for next season. No need to blow picks on reaches or 'projects' at QB when we already have a project at QB. No need to put Wallace in unless McCoy goes down. Wallace is what he is - after all the time in the league, he isn't any different, so putting him in games doesn't benefit anyone.

Still not sold on Flynn, but he wouldn't cost us picks.

[golfer704u]

So you wouldn't take Sam Bradford either? Or Josh Freeman? Lot's of QB regress in their second season. and when your OC goes from being below average, to total suckage, that might affect your play too.

[lemosley01]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

So you wouldn't take Sam Bradford either? Or Josh Freeman? Lot's of QB regress in their second season. and when your OC goes from being below average, to total suckage, that might affect your play too.

No, I wouldn't take either of them.

The parts of McCoys game that HE controls - accuracy, going through progressions, reads of the defense, etc - are not improving, and seem to be getting worse.

He holds the ball too long.

He throws the ball late.

He is staring down receivers (still)

He doesn't seem to get through his reads, even when he is holding the ball too long.

He doesn't seem to have 'pocket presence' (maybe this will come with more playing time).

Accuracy is all over the place - even on short, what should be easy (for a NFL QB) passes - the bread and butter of a WCO.

Deep accuracy (when we go deep) is pretty bad and not getting better.

Maybe he'll get it next year with the offseason to work on everything. Like I said, if you can't get Luck, then I'd simply stay with McCoy. We don't need more project QBs that we have already.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by lemosley01

Tom, my eyes told me that he wasn't getting better. 'Staying the same' would be best case, but I think he got worse.

That might be due to a variety of factors, but he didn't seem to improve. The big things I notice is that he is still scattershot with his passes - they are behind or too low too much.

IMO, if we can't get Luck, then we stay with McCoy for next season. No need to blow picks on reaches or 'projects' at QB when we already have a project at QB. No need to put Wallace in unless McCoy goes down. Wallace is what he is - after all the time in the league, he isn't any different, so putting him in games doesn't benefit anyone.

Still not sold on Flynn, but he wouldn't cost us picks.

Fair enough Lemo! You've present WHY you feel the way you do. I respect that.

I just liked Dan Fouts insinuating there's a 0% chance for a QB to be successful when an OC refuses to put WRs in routes down field. He complained about it when he covered that as the 3rd quarter ended he didn't see 1 single route all day with a WR down field. I blame the coach throwing his QB in handcuffs. It certainly she light on WHY McCoy could average 7.1 yards a completion in 2010 and get the results one would expect from throwing into crowded phone boothes all year. I'm sure sometimes he chose NOT to throw into the crowded phone especially when he was handcuffed to no audibles. When opponents see that on film, they crowd the box and create traffic for the short slant routes this offense needs to success. In essence, that makes the job considerably more difficult. It's pretty tough to be accurate when the designated slant route receiver has his eyes in the ILBer ready to light him up. I've never seen a worse setup than I saw in 2011. Just being honest.

I've seen countless professional QBs that sucked durign their first 2 years become GREAT NFL QBs; but rarely have I seen them do it without the help Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Drew Brees and Troy Aikman needed. I can add Elway too. They all had horrific numbers early. Alex Smith too. That's why I shared their numbers in another thread to show people the soph seasons weren't any better than the freshman seasons. Alot of QBs like Tom Brady redshirted rookie years in blue jeans or they dressed and kept a baseball cap on the dome.

In my experiences tuning in since the late 60s, most guys tend to hit their stride between 27-29 years of age. Exactly like the CFL/NFL Eurpoe guys such as Kurt Warner, Joe Theisman, Warren Moon, Jeff Garcia and the Jake Delhomme that led Carolina to a SB. Alex Smith took 7 full years so he's about 29. Aaron Rodgers didn't make the playoffs until his 5th NFL season so that's about 28 or so. It just seems like a ton of people today think a struggling young QB will suck forever without weighing our environment.

I'd LOVE to add a vertical threat here. Yanking a Safety or 2 from the box OPENS up underneathe stuff as well as slant routes. It creates the space our receivers and QBs haven't been treated to. All our opponents were promised on film we won't throw deep until it's desperation time when they can pin their ears backs and bring more guys than we can block anyhow. You're limited in how you play chess when you only attack with pawns.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Fair enough Lemo! You've present WHY you feel the way you do. I respect that.

I just liked Dan Fouts insinuating there's a 0% chance for a QB to be successful when an OC refuses to put WRs in routes down field. He complained about it when he covered that as the 3rd quarter ended he didn't see 1 single route all day with a WR down field. I blame the coach throwing his QB in handcuffs. It certainly she light on WHY McCoy could average 7.1 yards a completion in 2010 and get the results one would expect from throwing into crowded phone boothes all year. I'm sure sometimes he chose NOT to throw into the crowded phone especially when he was handcuffed to no audibles. When opponents see that on film, they crowd the box and create traffic for the short slant routes this offense needs to success. In essence, that makes the job considerably more difficult. It's pretty tough to be accurate when the designated slant route receiver has his eyes in the ILBer ready to light him up. I've never seen a worse setup than I saw in 2011. Just being honest.

I've seen countless professional QBs that sucked durign their first 2 years become GREAT NFL QBs; but rarely have I seen them do it without the help Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Drew Brees and Troy Aikman needed. I can add Elway too. They all had horrific numbers early. Alex Smith too. That's why I shared their numbers in another thread to show people the soph seasons weren't any better than the freshman seasons. Alot of QBs like Tom Brady redshirted rookie years in blue jeans or they dressed and kept a baseball cap on the dome.

In my experiences tuning in since the late 60s, most guys tend to hit their stride between 27-29 years of age. Exactly like the CFL/NFL Eurpoe guys such as Kurt Warner, Joe Theisman, Warren Moon, Jeff Garcia and the Jake Delhomme that led Carolina to a SB. Alex Smith took 7 full years so he's about 29. Aaron Rodgers didn't make the playoffs until his 5th NFL season so that's about 28 or so. It just seems like a ton of people today think a struggling young QB will suck forever without weighing our environment.

I'd LOVE to add a vertical threat here. Yanking a Safety or 2 from the box OPENS up underneathe stuff as well as slant routes. It creates the space our receivers and QBs haven't been treated to. All our opponents were promised on film we won't throw deep until it's desperation time when they can pin their ears backs and bring more guys than we can block anyhow. You're limited in how you play chess when you only attack with pawns.

Great points Tom and as I think about it. This explanation also makes me feel better about my personal whipping boy this season Greg Little. It probably wasn't fun as a reciever who's strengths were his frame and getting yards after the catch to know that on any short pass he caught underneath he was already going to have three guys around him hunting for his head. Might make anyone jumpy enough to drop more passes than normal. And maybe round those routes off while you are trying to figure out where that hit is going to come from, not IF it's going to come.

[Enigmatic Evil]

Great points Tom, and I think you're right. Shurmur's "masturful" routes relied on a lot of short to intermediate routes that cut across the field for short yardage. Great in practice, GREAT in Madden, but in REAL football when you have minds just as if not more brilliant than yours GAMEPLANNING for a whole week to SHUT YOU DOWN... your tendencies (and with Shurmur they're as easy to read as the worlds WORST poker player) become obvious and opposing teams shut our pass attack down with no problem and even managed to make our running game obsolete as well many games.

There was no variation or design to the pass plays we ran, no deep routs, no decoy routes. Sure Colt was far from perfect out there, but with a bandaid offensive line ALL year with 2 out of 5 decent starters, with ONE half-decent WR option and at times, no running game for balance. HE is not at the level where he can take a shit team, put it on his shoulders and win and lets be honest with ourselves, there have been maybe 5 QB'S in NFL HISTORY talented enough to actually do that. We continue to give ourselves these false senses of promise that the next QB option will be that next great thing. I've seen it happen with Couch, Frye, Quinn, Colt and even veterans we've brought in like Dilfer and Garcia were hearalded until their seasons played out and the ol merry-go-round kept on spinning.

Its a problem that more than just ONE WR or ONE QB or ONE of anything can fix... I think we need 2 or 3 key guys for this offense to really turn the corner everyone wants.

[lemosley01]

I'm not going to be too hard on Little. I think we took him too high given his experience and project status, but that isn't on Greg Little.

It is his first year in the NFL, and, as we've seen time and again, even highly rated receivers usually take a couple of years for it all to come together.

Massaquoi IMO is a lost cause - he's 3 years in and it doesn't seem to be coming together, or even hinting to come together. He still runs bad routes, doesn't come back for the ball, and gives up on plays regularly.

[Flugel]

Good points Golfer, EE and Lemo!

I've been tough on Little as well BUT all that strategy Fouts found ridiculous made life toughest on McCoy. We were asking Little to run slants at ILBer Willis and Safety Whitner ALL day long.

Earlier in the year, we were running on 95% of first downs where only 5-6 blockers were being asked to block 9-11 guys playing run exclusively per trend on film that wasn't lying. It felt like it took us 4-5 weeks to discover we MIGHT want to swing pass somebody outside all the inside traffic.

If we never put the foot speed on the field, I don't expect defenses to respect our receiving talent any more than they've had to - to date. We are the easiest team to defend right now.

I don't think musical QBs or changing coordinators every other year helps us as much as adding a talented deep threat. I guarantee it would open the underneath stuff we're finding way too crowded today.

I don't mind adding a QB like Case Keenum to come in and improve the competition at QB. I'm not married to the McCoy idea for the long term if he never justifies it. I just can't agree with people that the evaluation criteria has been fair to date and I think the names and early numbers of John Elway, Steve Young, Terry Bradshaw, Drew Brees, Troy Aikman, and Alex Smith remind us that growing pains on bad teams are inevitable. I always LOVE to hear that arguement "don't great QB make everyone around them better?" Absolutely, once they completed NFL potty training and cut all their NFL teeth.

When did the first 2 years of ANY good-great NFL QB that began on a bad team define their entire career? This is what always gets dismissed in the QB discussions because every now and then an exception to the rule like Marino and Roethlisberger go to teams that frequented playoffs and had great starts. There's been some exceptions to that rule that don't really change the rule overall IMO.