This Weekend

[Flugel]

Folks, take a look at some of the athletes and pollished receivers running routes this weekend. Try not to get too tunnelvisioned to Aaron Rodgers' team because he's not the rule or even close to it. He's the most accurate QB anywhere.

Watch the receivers for the Joey Bottaflaccos, the Alex Smiths, the TJ Yates, Tom Bradys, Drew Brees, the Eli Mannings and even Tim Tebows. They got athletes that can ressurrect passes behind them or floaters in traffic into TDs. Watch how often thse athletes make you forget just how imperfect some of the throws are.

It really matters. Some of the biggest fantasy football monsters were Gronkowski, Graham, Calvin Johnson, Victor Cruz, and Hakeem Nicks. I'm sure Vernon Davis was quite productive too. Andre Johnson had a mile on the closest DB last week when an underthrown pass with hang time end up in Johnson's arms before travelling to the end zone. Athletes light scoreboards unless we want to pretend that all our version of Danny Ferry needs is a better point guard.

[lemosley01]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Folks, take a look at some of the athletes and pollished receivers running routes this weekend. Try not to get too tunnelvisioned to Aaron Rodgers' team because he's not the rule or even close to it. He's the most accurate QB anywhere.

Watch the receivers for the Joey Bottaflaccos, the Alex Smiths, the TJ Yates, Tom Bradys, Drew Brees, the Eli Mannings and even Tim Tebows. They got athletes that can ressurrect passes behind them or floaters in traffic into TDs. Watch how often thse athletes make you forget just how imperfect some of the throws are.

It really matters. Some of the biggest fantasy football monsters were Gronkowski, Graham, Calvin Johnson, Victor Cruz, and Hakeem Nicks. I'm sure Vernon Davis was quite productive too. Andre Johnson had a mile on the closest DB last week when an underthrown pass with hang time end up in Johnson's arms before travelling to the end zone. Athletes light scoreboards unless we want to pretend that all our version of Danny Ferry needs is a better point guard.

Tom, some of the QBs (Flaccos, Ryans, Tebows, etc) rely on excellent receivers to bail them out on a regular basis.

Brady and Brees put the football where it needs to be. If you are looking for errant passes form those guys, they are few and far between. Kurt Warner did the same thing - he had 'the touch' and would put the ball right where it needed to be, time after time. Eli Manning has come a long way as well - at least since he seems to have settled down and is no longer afraid to stand in there, even in pressure.

What I really wish is we had more views from above so we could watch receivers and their routes develop - then you can see who are the GOOD, polished receivers vs. those getting by on talent.

McCoy's passes are all over the place - I don't know if someone has screwed with his mechanics or he's a basket case from all the hits. The guy was plenty accurate in college, and I don't *think* it was a result of his receivers being awesome (was it?)

[Tobalaz]

I've no doubt for one second what great receivers can do for a team, remember how good DA looked when he was tossing it up to Edwards, Jerivicious and Winslow?
Elite qbs like Rodgers, Brees and Brady are few and far between, and when their go-to guys are out they have average games we only wish someone here could muster.
High picks like Sanchez and Matty Ice look good with all those weapons but crumble under pressure, so forgive me if I'm not sold on a hype machine like RG3 when we don't have any weapons to make him better or a coach that has proven he could develop a qb worth a damn.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Since our return in '99, 70% of all WRs taken in the top 10 have been total busts.

Teams rarely are in the position to draft an elite prospect at the QB position in this league ...even those in the top 5. It just so happens we have 2 of those this year.

It's time to stop settling for average QBs. I was one who stood steadfast behind our current edition of let's try to turn an average to below average QB into a superstar. I had hoped his "intangibles" could somehow make up for other areas where he is lacking. I did my best to ignore the huge red flag we had over the off season when McCoy & his daddy were whining about Colt being pushed too hard. I thought I would still give him the benefit of the doubt and would see if he improved. Instead of improving with more weapons than he had the year prior ...he regressed in every way. The coddling didn't work. Although his daddy fancies his son as an NFL superstar, this kid certainly has not made those around him better. In fact, his back up actually made Colt look even worse ...and we all know how sub-par his back up is.

We have a shot at an elite QB with a sky high ceiling. It would be foolhardy and almost flat out pompous to pass on that opportunity and stick with the status quo.

Again, you address your other areas of need, don't pick your elite QB, and watch your team improve by a game or two ...putting that elite QBOTF out of reach. Then, you get to watch your team suffer for the next God knows how many years at the hand of an average QB who has some nice weapons around him. Great, sounds like a smart plan. I am ALL FOR grabbing our burner #1 WR at pick 1b OR even better in FA.

Summary: We need a much better point guard.

[nickers]

Originally Posted by lemosley01

Tom, some of the QBs (Flaccos, Ryans, Tebows, etc) rely on excellent receivers to bail them out on a regular basis.

Brady and Brees put the football where it needs to be. If you are looking for errant passes form those guys, they are few and far between. Kurt Warner did the same thing - he had 'the touch' and would put the ball right where it needed to be, time after time. Eli Manning has come a long way as well - at least since he seems to have settled down and is no longer afraid to stand in there, even in pressure.

What I really wish is we had more views from above so we could watch receivers and their routes develop - then you can see who are the GOOD, polished receivers vs. those getting by on talent.

McCoy's passes are all over the place - I don't know if someone has screwed with his mechanics or he's a basket case from all the hits. The guy was plenty accurate in college, and I don't *think* it was a result of his receivers being awesome (was it?)

Some of Colts problems are systemic and having lousey WR's. Im not saying Colt doesnt take some of the blame.But He's not totally at fault. However,in the WCO the QB's mechanics (hitch steps), Recognizing hot reads and positioning your body to make the throws are what make the WCO go. I just dont think you can expect much not having mini camp and OTA's and the necessary practice needed to develope that kind of timing last summer. If next season he looks lost after a full training camp,then I'll agree its time to cut the chord.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by lemosley01

Tom, some of the QBs (Flaccos, Ryans, Tebows, etc) rely on excellent receivers to bail them out on a regular basis.

Brady and Brees put the football where it needs to be. If you are looking for errant passes form those guys, they are few and far between. Kurt Warner did the same thing - he had 'the touch' and would put the ball right where it needed to be, time after time. Eli Manning has come a long way as well - at least since he seems to have settled down and is no longer afraid to stand in there, even in pressure.

What I really wish is we had more views from above so we could watch receivers and their routes develop - then you can see who are the GOOD, polished receivers vs. those getting by on talent.

McCoy's passes are all over the place - I don't know if someone has screwed with his mechanics or he's a basket case from all the hits. The guy was plenty accurate in college, and I don't *think* it was a result of his receivers being awesome (was it?)

That is some terrific insight Lemo! You don't have to answer this but how come it would take me about 70 paragraphs to get that same message out?

I REALLY think McCoy's upside is buried in chaos here, which is why anyone after Luck maybe inheriting the same difficulties. I don't bring up Brees ALL the time because that's who I want McCoy to be. I bring him up because of what he looked like as an inexperienced QB without help. TODAY, it's crystal clear that franchise NEVER needed Rivers as much as it needed patience with a young QB experiencing growing pains on a terrible team as well as help at receiving positions.

LOVE the point about needing someone from above in the ear of the guy calling plays. When Shurmur didn't see or hear the Harrison hit on McCoy - Good Lord does that slam dunk a need to re-evaluate the process. It just seems like a lot of former QBs and 1 WR (Tasker) that broadcasted our games saw things Shurmur wasn't seeing. The SF game was the best analysis I ever heard by HOF QB Dan Fouts. It was why the square peg never fit the round hole we were straining with all year.

Mike Mayock pointed out that Seattle was able to BEAT Drew Brees in last year's playoffs because they effectively collapsed the inside pocket from OG from OG. He said when you have a shorter QB this can REALLY compound the problems for a passer that thrives off great mechanics, stepping into throws and staying in the rythym of the short passing. Any arguement where our oline was weakest this year? Both OG spots.

Some of this is coaching like you alluded to and looking at film with players. I never got the impression our offense looked at film or used it the right way. When we add in that our OC didn't have a good view of the field - this makes it way tougher to be productive. Seneca Wallace went winless and he's making 5 times the salary McCoy makes.

If we can add an OC and some tools for a QB - we might not be looking at our young QB like a carpenter without a hammer and nails for much longer.

[DawgFan]

I have been reading a lot and not posting because the rhetoric has become etched in stone for more than a few on this board, but I want to address a few things about the QB/WR symbiotic relationship.

One of the things that Colt was known for coming out of college was that he was deadly accurate inside 20 yards. He also had a knack for throwing a nice jump ball downfield when the opportunity arose. Now, we see many who believe he is neither accurate nor able to go deep. This is where that symbiotic relationship comes in.

First, Heckert mentioned that the Browns WR's led the league with a TON of dropped passes. If even half of them were caught Colt would have an additional 20+ completions for an additional (based on y/c) 210 yards...and statistically an additional TD. What that means is that with WR's that caught AVERAGE (i.e. didn't drop the damn ball), Colt would have an 80.8 QBR (as opposed to a 74.6). He also would have a completion percentage of a very acceptable 61.5%. I can't vouch for how many drives dropped passes killed, but I bet the points per game would improve dramatically with 20+ extra catches.

As for the idea that Colt misses BADLY sometimes. I will go back to the fact we have a ROOKIE WR who didn't even play last year, a QB turned KR turned WR for our most reliable guy, a guy who missed half the season in MoMass in the next guy, and a practice squad call-up for our slot. MoMass was never known for good route running, in fact he was considered a risk for just that reason. A rookie with no playing time in a year plus and no real pre-season isn't likely to run the RIGHT route, much less crisp ones. And Cribbs, while an athlete, is also not exactly a CRISP route runner, but more of a fighter for the ball. The reason I point this out is that in the WCO, it is about the WR not only being EXACTLY WHERE he is supposed to be, it is about being there EXACTLY WHEN he is supposed to be there. With the above players and issues, NONE of this is happening, making it impossible to tell if Colt just f'd up or if the WR ran the wrong route, the wrong timing, or just ran it lazy (which was pointed out a number of times in a few of the games, the poor routes leading to INT's).

With all that said, we now come to sacks and Colt's durability issues. Well, if he can't count on a WR to be where he is supposed to be when he is supposed to be there and then can't count on them to actually CATCH the ball if they are....what do you think a QB is going to end up doing. Hesitating, pulling it down and running, or checking down to a simple route he can count on (just a little to early in the reads). This all ads up to the defenses crowding the box and that leads to a poor running game which then leads to sacks.

In other words, give Colt a couple of guys he KNOWS are going to fight for the ball (calling you out Norwood and MoMass), or a couple of guys he KNOWS are going to run the right route (calling you out Little and Momass), or a guy that actually doesn't have to THINK about his routes (calling you out Cribbs and Little), and MAYBE he can get it done.

I am not sure, but I don't think Colt lost his accuracy or his ability to lead. I think he has lost his confidence in the guys who supposedly are his beneficiaries...the WR's!!!

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by DawgFan

First, Heckert mentioned that the Browns WR's led the league with a TON of dropped passes. If even half of them were caught Colt would have an additional 20+ completions for an additional (based on y/c) 210 yards...and statistically an additional TD. What that means is that with WR's that caught AVERAGE (i.e. didn't drop the damn ball), Colt would have an 80.8 QBR (as opposed to a 74.6). He also would have a completion percentage of a very acceptable 61.5%. I can't vouch for how many drives dropped passes killed, but I bet the points per game would improve dramatically with 20+ extra catches.

You can say that about every QB in the NFL. Use your figures for all of them ...and every QB looks a hell of a lot better, and Colt is still where he is within the pack.

I see a lot of excuses for a 3rd round draft pick who we gave more than a fair shot at leading this team. Instead all he and his father have done is complain about it.

Seneca Wallace looked better QBing this team, why isn't everyone rallying for that guy to be the starter?

I haven't really seen much rhetoric personally. Some opinions being backed up by solid logic though. Hell, most people are still in the pro Colt camp, which is a little bewildering given the talent available in this draft if you ask me. So if anything, I would think you might feel comfortable here, knowing you are in the majority.

We pass on a rare opportunity to get a true blue chip QB now ...just remember 5 years down the road when we can't get over the hump due to QB play how you desperately wanted to give this 3rd round pick his 3rd year at leading your Browns when we had a real opportunity picking at 4 to get a prolific passer.

All the weapons in the world won't turn Colt into a better than average QB.

Just my opinion.

[YtownBacker]

Dude, you can bring that stuff here any day. Great post and a lot of meat on that bone. The naysayers and posters that think changing is better then letting it play out for once have driven me back from doing a lot of postings also. But it is refreshing to read a logical post based on some fact instead of the blind follow the mob type posts.

There's a point where, in spite of emotion, logic must prevail. We still have a President who has a proven NFL resume of being a finder and developer of young QBs. A guy who knows it doesn't happen overnight for a lot of guys especially if they are not surrounded with talent. Also a GM who has a proven track record with the draft.

If they think Colt has enough upside to be the QB that can turn this franchise into a winner then I'm good with their evaluation.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

But it is refreshing to read a logical post based on some fact instead of the blind follow the mob type posts.

lol WHAT?! There are a total of 3 people on this forum who have been rallying to draft an elite QB. How is that a "mob". Get a grip.

[YtownBacker]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

lol WHAT?! There are a total of 3 people on this forum who have been rallying to draft an elite QB. How is that a "mob". Get a grip.

The post said "follow the mob type posts". A big difference from a "mob" of people posting something.

Maybe time for you to get a grip and respect the opinions of others. There is no right or wrong here it's all opinions.

lol...........................really

You'd think I said something bad about Mangini.

[DawgFan]

Originally Posted by TheBestPlayersPlay

lol WHAT?! There are a total of 3 people on this forum who have been rallying to draft an elite QB. How is that a "mob". Get a grip.

TBPP, I would be all over drafting Luck if it wouldn't cost us the entire draft and the 1st from next year, but that is what it would likely take, and that is even if the guy is up for sale.

The reality with RGIII is that he has had ONE good year. He had less than 8 y/p in the other 3, and still managed to get sacked over 20x in the 3 years he played the full season.

You might also want to note that his backup, who only played in part of a game, had a QBR of 235.7 vs Texas Tech with a 75% completion rate and 2 TD's...so it might just be that RGIII was the beneficiary of a VERY TALENTED OFFENSE. The #1 RB averaged over 6 y/c.

I am not saying he WON'T be a stud...but come on, in that league (Big 12) NOBODY scored less than 22 ppg, and 4 averaged over 40. Further, Baylor was one of 4 teams with over 4000 yards passing, so it isn't like he was even head and shoulders over the QB competition in his own league (3rd behind Jones and Weeden for yards).

The only thing that separates him is the running, and at 6'2" 220, he is the same size as Colt and just barely bigger than Michael Vick. Do you really think that running will continue past one season of Pittsburgh, Cincinnati and Baltimore's defenses pounding him into the turf?

I don't consider him elite, so that is probably why the big difference. I consider him a GAMBLE and a PROJECT...and I don't want the Browns to risk a #4 pick on that.

IMHO