Offensive Coordinator

[golfer704u]

While I disagree with the tone KoK uses with his fellow posters around here and also feel that he's gone a bit off the deep end. I understand what has driven him there because I feel it too.

and the main point of his previous post is 100% true. Holmgren is not at all worried about his legacy here. In fact I'd say he's treating this as a toy to play with and not a team or fanbase he cares about.

His legacy is not going to change with what happens here in cleveland negatvely. And you know what pisses me off the most? WHEN Holmgren fails here, you know what will be blamed? Not Holmgren. It will be Cleveland. The town, the fanbase , just the idea of "Cleveland" sports. The talk will be "Nobody wins in Cleveland, Look at Bellicheck, he was awful there and then great in NE". Ect ect ect. And Holgren perpetuates the idea that he is not part of "Cleveland" in his interview where he talks about "those fans". He may talk about "those fans" respectfully and call us dedicated. But he stil shows in the words that he uses that he's really not invested in what happens to this fanbase or franchise. If he suceeds, oh hell yes he'll take all the credit for being a miracle worker. But if it doesn't work out? "I'm still 'Coach', the guy that has won Superbowls, it's Clevelands fault."

[YtownBacker]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

While I disagree with the tone KoK uses with his fellow posters around here and also feel that he's gone a bit off the deep end. I understand what has driven him there because I feel it too.

and the main point of his previous post is 100% true. Holmgren is not at all worried about his legacy here. In fact I'd say he's treating this as a toy to play with and not a team or fanbase he cares about.

His legacy is not going to change with what happens here in cleveland negatvely. And you know what pisses me off the most? WHEN Holmgren fails here, you know what will be blamed? Not Holmgren. It will be Cleveland. The town, the fanbase , just the idea of "Cleveland" sports. The talk will be "Nobody wins in Cleveland, Look at Bellicheck, he was awful there and then great in NE". Ect ect ect. And Holgren perpetuates the idea that he is not part of "Cleveland" in his interview where he talks about "those fans". He may talk about "those fans" respectfully and call us dedicated. But he stil shows in the words that he uses that he's really not invested in what happens to this fanbase or franchise. If he suceeds, oh hell yes he'll take all the credit for being a miracle worker. But if it doesn't work out? "I'm still 'Coach', the guy that has won Superbowls, it's Clevelands fault."

Come on man........that's sad if you really believe that.

The guy might not be doing it the way you want but to actually think he's just using it as a toy..................................really.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

While I disagree with the tone KoK uses with his fellow posters around here and also feel that he's gone a bit off the deep end. I understand what has driven him there because I feel it too.

and the main point of his previous post is 100% true. Holmgren is not at all worried about his legacy here. In fact I'd say he's treating this as a toy to play with and not a team or fanbase he cares about.

His legacy is not going to change with what happens here in cleveland negatvely. And you know what pisses me off the most? WHEN Holmgren fails here, you know what will be blamed? Not Holmgren. It will be Cleveland. The town, the fanbase , just the idea of "Cleveland" sports. The talk will be "Nobody wins in Cleveland, Look at Bellicheck, he was awful there and then great in NE". Ect ect ect. And Holgren perpetuates the idea that he is not part of "Cleveland" in his interview where he talks about "those fans". He may talk about "those fans" respectfully and call us dedicated. But he stil shows in the words that he uses that he's really not invested in what happens to this fanbase or franchise. If he suceeds, oh hell yes he'll take all the credit for being a miracle worker. But if it doesn't work out? "I'm still 'Coach', the guy that has won Superbowls, it's Clevelands fault."

Of course it'll be pinned on us. The fanatical fans that didn't cheer loud enough, the former players coming around, both "distractions" that Holmgren and Co "just didn't need." The media, the media distracted us and wasted our time by stoking the fans impatience then dumping it all on us while we're trying to build a dynasty. Just like it wasn't Mora's fault he sucks as a HC, he just wasn't given enough time. It wasn't Holmgren's fault he didn't make a good GM/President elsewhere, the problem was too many voices in the room not agreeing with me. It wasn't Zorn's fault he sucked as a HC, it was the Redskins fault for "jerking him around."

Nah, it'll be Browns fans and Browns medias fault. Nothing is EVER these guys fault according to them.

[nickers]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

The reality is there really isn't a true incentive for Holmshit to give it his all. His Legacy? Unearned or not it's set. Ron Wolf, Brett Favre and Reggie White carved out the Hall of Fame spot that awaits him. The ring is already around his pudgy finger as everyone can see whenever his hands are shown. Holmgren Ave already exists, in Green Bay. He was and still is Mr. Seahawk. His reputation as the guy to go to two SB's with two separate teams doesn't just vanish.

See Nickers there's nothing really on the line for him. His history book is already written and some Coaches he happened to "give a shot to" falling on their asses aren't going to change the history book. Won't happen. He's still going to get the gold jacket and his photo in the hallway, they won't be taking his ring away from him and Holmgren Avenue will still be there tomorrow. And the next day. So really it doesn't matter if the Browns succeed or fail with him as President. He'll still be THAT GUY just as Parcells isn't the guy who quickly gets teams to mediocre before "retiring" to the next team, he's Bill Parcells the HC of the Giants golden era.

That unfortunately for some changes things. You act like his entire Legacy and reputation is on the line and it really isn't. This is a hobby he's making 50 million dollars at until he fully retires himself into the HOF as Mr. Seahawk and "heads home to Seattle soon" as he is ever so eager to reassure the NFL fanbase of Washington State.



Actually and even the Media has brought it up it DOESN'T make things smoother. It COMPLICATES things and paints oneself into a corner. Your best buddy is the agent that represents 95% of your employees. Are you going to play hardball with your best friend or are you going to do him a solid and throw his clients some great contracts that hooks him up? The latter. Now getting down to brass tacks, say you have to fire someone(which should have been done moments after the final game of the season). You're going to fire this guy or that guy who is a friend of yours and your best friends client because he's doing a bad job? No, you're probably not going to do that. Your stuck now.



Alright i'll tell you what. Let's skip the "oh well the DC and CB Coach are friends everyone does it" spin and let's get down to it nickers. Show me one other team in the NFL where the President/GM has hired at a nearly exclusive level his friends and his best friends clients. Show me what other team where over a dozen of the employees are all longtime personal friends of the team President with only minimal ties to the HC and GM.

I will make it easy for you: Mike Brown and Al Davis. Those are the two closest examples. Mike Brown from 1990-2002 and Al Davis since he ran off one of the best football minds in the NFL John Madden. How'd that work out for them? Well the Bengals turned Bungles for over a decade and got stuck drafting #1 overall as Brown painted himself into a corner where he couldn't really fire his friends for doing a bad job but couldn't really punish them, either. Davis had went from doing that and failing to handing over the reigns until success starts happening before reverting back, and failing once again.

See, thing is that ISN'T how the NFL works if you want success. Yeah this guy might hire this guy that he knows or that guy that he knows but teams don't fill their entire team from ball boy up to President with one huge echo chamber full of ones compliant, jobless drinking buddies. Teams top brass don't hire their nephews to coach then pick out their staffs for them. Unless you're Al Davis or Mike Brown, that is.




I did. See I keep putting myself into his shoes as Team President and the decisions needing to be made and it keeps coming back to the same few things...

My option is Eric Mangini or Pat Shurmur? As Team President i'm going with EM. I know that with a talented team he has proven he can win.

My option is Pat Shurmur or Jim Harbaugh. I fired EM and need a HC. On one hand I have this NFL guy who went to College and transcended a College squad with the toughest admission standards in the NCAA and thus a tough place to recruit at into one of the best programs in the NCAA. His players enter the NFL without much of a learning curve and perform, he coached up and played a major role in developing the most coveted QB prospect since Peyton Manning. I want to run the WCO, he runs a type of WCO. I have the personnel for and have been running the 3-4, he runs the 3-4. On the flipside I have my nephew over here who has pretty much failed as an offensive coordinator elsewhere and is on the hot seat.

Yep, i'm going with Harbaugh. See nickers, this right here is why I am even more pissed off. According to Harbaugh he has tons of respect for Mike Holmgren and would love to have had an opportunity to pick his brain, talk shop and work with him. We didn't call him to even ask according to Harbaugh himself. There's no incentive for him to lie about not talking to us, in fact if he needed to lie it would have been better to feign interest and drive his price up. Simply put we didn't even talk to this man.

You can say all you want i'm negative. Fucking aye I am. We likely could have had Harbaugh here running the program. Instead he goes over to SF and takes a 7-9 team of underperformers to within a neck hair of the Superbowl in year one. The guy Holmgren deemed the superior candidate, so superior it wasn't even worth giving Harbaugh the time of day took a 5-11 team that was 17 points from being 10-6 with a brutal schedule and sunk it to within a neck hair of 3-13, finishing out 4-12.

Maybe you're right. Why be so negative about it? Is it all really that bad? Well... This year in the NFL...

Former Browns HC Bill Belichick is in his 5th Superbowl in a decade. You know, that guy we sent death threats to back in the 1990's and burned that bridge so a return in 1999 was impossible? Yep, that guy. Won 3, been to 5 and could win #4 entering a small group of men including Paul Brown(who we sent packing), Chuck Noll(Who we weren't interested in as we had better options) and Vince Lombardi. Of course we also had his star pupil, a guy Marty Schottenheimer, Bill Parcells, Ted Marchibroda and Andy Reid all call a great football mind and the kind of guy you need to rebuild a team but our President fired him too.

Marvin Lewis, a guy we decided was inferior as a choice to Butch Davis after interviewing him in 2001 just went to the playoffs with a rookie QB, two rookie WR's, patchwork Oline and a Defense full of 1st and 2nd year players. A guy who despite working for a franchise with one scout, no GM and a front office who refuses to pay their good players to stay only has 3 losing seasons out of 10. Of course compounding that situation is we deemed him an inferior choice to Pat Shurmur and obviously didn't learn from that mistake the first time around.

The aforementioned Jim Harbaugh who we decided was the inferior choice to Pat Shurmur right next to Lewis just took a 7-9 team to the NFC Championship and a hairs breath away from the Superbowl in his first season.

It's the same. Old. Fucking. Story. Paul Brown wasn't worth our time, get steppin'. Chuck Noll wasn't worth our time, we're not giving you a shot. Forrest Gregg wasn't good enough, go take someone else to the SB. Fuck Bill Walsh he's a Paul Brown guy. Marty isn't good enough, beat it and take Bill Cowher with you. Belichick isn't worth it, fuck that guy. Chris Palmer now, he's the man not runner up Brian Billick. Go win Art Modell a SB, Billick. This Butch Davis, now HE is a HC. This Marvin Lewis guy, let him go turn the perennial 1-15 Bengals into a serious franchise. Eric Mangini? Jim Harbaugh? Marvin Lewis? Pffft to hell with all this, my little nephew here Pat Shurmur is the man for the job.

But no you're right, look at the positive. We have another top 5 draft pick this year so realy we're top 5 and competing to win the playoffs. Besides all of the above is tradition, right? I mean that's what we do. We run off guys like Paul Brown, like Marty, like Belichick and we snub the Noll's, Walsh's, Harbaugh's, Cowher's and those kinds while opening our hearts for the Policy's, the Sewage's, the Holmgren's and the Shurmurs. That's what we do, it's who we are. They go and compete for(and win) lots and lots of Superbowls, we compete for and win lots and lots of top 5 draft finishes.

But anyways yeah, i've put myself in those shoe's. Now me personally i'd probably go hard for the guys we snub. If I have a tough choice like a Bill Callahan being available as an OC or a Brad Childress i'm just the type of guy that would probably go after Childress. If I had to decide on something like keep a Dickless Jauron or hire a Mike Nolan i'd probably go after the guys like Nolan. That's just me though in a hypothetical if I were in those shoe's i'd probably go after the best guys that are available and overpay quite a bit if I had to. I could be wrong though, that's only what successful franchises do 9 times out of 10, hiring all of my friends may in fact be a better decision. It doesn't work in the business world but maybe in the NFL it would work.



Maybe. That could be, maybe I am. Although I would disagree as i'm not saying hiring or drafting one person is all that it takes and i'm not bitching because we didn't draft some queer out of L.A. to be the face of the franchise. I'm bitching because i'm sick of drafting top 5, sick of losing and sick of watching good football people get the snub here only to go on to other franchises and turn those franchises around as we're being sold on outdated 5 year plans, outdated philosophies and told to have faith after the excuse faerie shows up to absolve everything.

I could switch it up if you'd like though and talk about how a 1st round QB will transform this team into a winner as we pass our way to endless Lombardi's. For right now though this post is long as hell and I gotta let people tear into it so i'm going to finish her on up.

Your pathetic..more bullshit...lol..

[nickers]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

While I disagree with the tone KoK uses with his fellow posters around here and also feel that he's gone a bit off the deep end. I understand what has driven him there because I feel it too.

and the main point of his previous post is 100% true. Holmgren is not at all worried about his legacy here. In fact I'd say he's treating this as a toy to play with and not a team or fanbase he cares about.

His legacy is not going to change with what happens here in cleveland negatvely. And you know what pisses me off the most? WHEN Holmgren fails here, you know what will be blamed? Not Holmgren. It will be Cleveland. The town, the fanbase , just the idea of "Cleveland" sports. The talk will be "Nobody wins in Cleveland, Look at Bellicheck, he was awful there and then great in NE". Ect ect ect. And Holgren perpetuates the idea that he is not part of "Cleveland" in his interview where he talks about "those fans". He may talk about "those fans" respectfully and call us dedicated. But he stil shows in the words that he uses that he's really not invested in what happens to this fanbase or franchise. If he suceeds, oh hell yes he'll take all the credit for being a miracle worker. But if it doesn't work out? "I'm still 'Coach', the guy that has won Superbowls, it's Clevelands fault."

This has to be the most way off post you ever made...the fans fault...really?....silly post and dont agree with it.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by nickers

Your pathetic..more bullshit...lol..

And typical nickers, can't debate anything or defend the points brought up so resorts to namecalling, go figure.

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by YtownBacker

Come on man........that's sad if you really believe that.

The guy might not be doing it the way you want but to actually think he's just using it as a toy..................................really.

Really? that's the one word you pick out and try to argue here? Ok he's treating it as a retirement hobby, Any better?

The rest of my statement stands. CLEVELAND will get blamed WHEN Holmgren fails. Not Holmgren. so what incentive does he have to do it right?

[golfer704u]

Originally Posted by nickers

This has to be the most way off post you ever made...the fans fault...really?....silly post and dont agree with it.

You watch. It will be "Nobody wins in Cleveland. Why would Holmgren be any different? The fans are not patient enough to build a winner." which will be laughable because Holmgren didn't show any patience either.

[Tobalaz]

The NFL has winners and losers, just like life, you can't have one without the other.
As fans, part of this mess is our fault.
"Why?" You ask?
Easy. Take a look at any other business.
If Alcoa made rims for trucks that blew out tires 12 of 16 times and people still bought them when there were other, better, safer options out there, but people kept buying them citing brand loyalty as the reason to continue to support an obviously inferior product, is the company going to change?
Hell no!
Those assholes are going to keep hiring their relatives for the big paying jobs in the company whether they gave a clue or not because why would they change a business model that works?
If you went to McDonalds and paid $80 for a hamburger, then they spit on the the burger and wiped their ass on the bun would you go back?
In the real world none of us would buy an overpriced car that broke down all the time or be a return customer at a restaurant where the food sucked just because they were good 50 years ago?
In the real world, businesses that can't provide good products or services go under because consumers won't accept inferior products or services at top dollar prices.
As long as we the fans continue to unconditionally support shit, that's what we're going to get.
Please, tell me I'm a bad fan because I'm tired of seeing a shit product, tired of wasting money buying merchandise to support nepotism and the bastardization of every happy childhood memory relating to this team.

[hiwaygal]

Originally Posted by golfer704u

While I disagree with the tone KoK uses with his fellow posters around here and also feel that he's gone a bit off the deep end. I understand what has driven him there because I feel it too.

and the main point of his previous post is 100% true. Holmgren is not at all worried about his legacy here. In fact I'd say he's treating this as a toy to play with and not a team or fanbase he cares about.

His legacy is not going to change with what happens here in cleveland negatvely. And you know what pisses me off the most? WHEN Holmgren fails here, you know what will be blamed? Not Holmgren. It will be Cleveland. The town, the fanbase , just the idea of "Cleveland" sports. The talk will be "Nobody wins in Cleveland, Look at Bellicheck, he was awful there and then great in NE". Ect ect ect. And Holgren perpetuates the idea that he is not part of "Cleveland" in his interview where he talks about "those fans". He may talk about "those fans" respectfully and call us dedicated. But he stil shows in the words that he uses that he's really not invested in what happens to this fanbase or franchise. If he suceeds, oh hell yes he'll take all the credit for being a miracle worker. But if it doesn't work out? "I'm still 'Coach', the guy that has won Superbowls, it's Clevelands fault."

From December 7, 2011:
http://www.barkinghard.com/forums/155858-post33.html