Personnel Comparison to the SF 49ers

[choco]

griffins reported anticipation problem may be real...we dont quite know yet.

however, colt has the same exact issue, as he has displayed over and over again. so im not sure shedding light on griffins knock does much for your argument.

i guess i dont really subscibe to the idea that a QB needs an all-pro team around him to develop, or to display his talent. having a great team around a QB certainly helps winning, but many of colts struggles are a result of his deficiencies. his poor pocket presence isn't a result of bad receivers or bad OL play. while im still no fan of trading up to get him, under no circumstances do you pass if he's there at 4. cause if colt needs an all-pro team to succeed, then he's never gonna be close to elite. great QB's make others better, rarely is the reverse true.

[next2nothing]

Originally Posted by brownsdownunder

Nobody looked good last year and we’re picking and choosing how “excuses” can be used. It’s okay that Joe Haden did not get one single pick because of this scheme change keeping him out of zones, but Colt McCoy is expected to rise up and show ground breaking greatness when 10% of his passes were dropped?

First off... I was unable to find a website that had this stat but I'm willing to bet Haden had zero picks this year because he didn't have many balls thrown his way. When offenses faced our defense and saw that they could either throw to Haden, Brown/Patterson... who do you think they are going to target more? Secondly... are you really trying to say that because Haden recorded zero picks that his performance is the same as Colt proving he can be the QB of this team? Come on man, a shutdown corner actually being a shutdown corner is in no way shape or form a QB showing he can be the guy.

Originally Posted by brownsdownunder

In the 2011 draft everyone wanted to get Colt help, outside of Greg Little who could one day be a really good player, we did absolutely nothing for him.

Again, I feel that the staff wanted to see how the current guys performed under the West Coast system. Was that the right thing to do? No. But I feel that is what the thinking was. How do you expect them to pinpoint what is wrong with the offense if they don't see these guys play in the one they intend to run? What if they had gone out and brought in some other WR's through FA/Draft and the offense still ran like shit, would you be saying the same thing?

Originally Posted by brownsdownunder

Spending two years developing a QB but getting him no help, and then dropping him for a rookie QB who comes with the tags "Lacks anticipation. Cannot throw receivers open. Must wait for a receiver to be open before he'll throw" amongst our wide outs, "won't be the best choice for a west coast offense" and "likes to scramble, very good at it despite knee surgery" in a division where James Harrison alone has sidelined three players (Josh Cribbs, MoMass and Colt) through illegal hits (yeah, look at his hit on Colt. If that's RG3 he crumples that knee) kind of sends warning lights in my eyes.

Yeah, Colt had no help but again what did he personally show you that makes you think if we give him help he'll be a successful NFL QB? I rooted for him all year but what I saw was missed throws, bad timing with his WR's (that is on both the WR and QB), bad decisions (throwing into double and triple coverage sometimes or in the 2nd Pitt game when he had an open lane to the endzone on the 5 but tried to force the ball into the TE), making the wrong read, holding onto the ball too long in an offense that is designed to be a quick passing offense, etc.

Every scouting report has cons on it. The key thing to look at is are these cons able to be fixed?

He doesn't throw with anticipation? Well he's going to have a whole off-season to fix it, but that can be fixed. The WCO is all about timing but I feel if we draft him that the coaching staff will have to alter the offense anyway. We can't draft him then try to plug him into a pure WCO. From all the videos I watched that Jason posted I saw nothing that says he can't throw a WR open. RGIII may not be the prototypical WCO QB but neither was McNabb when he got drafted into Phillies style of the WCO. He may have the knee surgery and likes to scramble but he is tough and can take a hit more than you think. 9/10 guys get hurt from that Harrison hit so idk what that has to do with anything other than a reach to knock RGIII.


I get this argument... but not to beat a dead horse again... it all comes down to upside/potential. I feel RGIII has more and I feel that the Browns should not pass up on him. Remember, more will happen this off-season than just the first round of the draft. No one is just expecting to draft RGIII and our offense magically be amazing.

[Masters]

"Lacks anticipation and Cannot throw receivers open" is one scouting reports analysis, while anther will say he can do both (I posted one a while ago which had a break down of him doing both). When actual NFL scouts and coached break down his game film they will see him doing both at time. Like any college QB coming to the NFL RG3 will have to get better at both, just like those in this draft and those that came before him

[Tobalaz]

For starters, I don't dislike RG3.
I'm just not too "thrilled" with him.
It has NOTHING to do with race. As far as I'm concerned, the guy could be pink with purple polka-dots and I wouldn't care.
My problem is with as many holes as we've got, the kid is a waste of a pick (or multiple picks) if we don't give him anything to work with. All it's going to do for us is set us back again, just like Couch, just like Quinn.
If the staff takes him at #4, I'm a fan.
If we trade up to #2, he better be a HUGE upgrade over McCoy or I'll ride his ass as a wasted pick.

I've posted over and over in multiple threads over the years how teams "get it right" at qb, showing what it took at the coaching level and the amount of talent around the qbs attributed to success, showing how it took time, and it all goes right out the damn window.

I agree with Hammer's statement, if we're going to sell the farm, go for Luck. Harbaugh did wonders with him and did wonders with Alex "Mr Bust" Smith. I don't believe Pattycakes or anyone else on this staff is capable of properly developing a qb, so I want one as far along as we can get.

[RGIII to da C-L-E]

Originally Posted by Tobalaz

For starters, I don't dislike RG3.
I'm just not too "thrilled" with him.
It has NOTHING to do with race. As far as I'm concerned, the guy could be pink with purple polka-dots and I wouldn't care.
My problem is with as many holes as we've got, the kid is a waste of a pick (or multiple picks) if we don't give him anything to work with. All it's going to do for us is set us back again, just like Couch, just like Quinn.
If the staff takes him at #4, I'm a fan.
If we trade up to #2, he better be a HUGE upgrade over McCoy or I'll ride his ass as a wasted pick.

I've posted over and over in multiple threads over the years how teams "get it right" at qb, showing what it took at the coaching level and the amount of talent around the qbs attributed to success, showing how it took time, and it all goes right out the damn window.

I agree with Hammer's statement, if we're going to sell the farm, go for Luck. Harbaugh did wonders with him and did wonders with Alex "Mr Bust" Smith. I don't believe Pattycakes or anyone else on this staff is capable of properly developing a qb, so I want one as far along as we can get.

What makes you believe Luck will be that much more of an upgrade over Colt compared to RGIII?

This is where your opinion rings hollow. You automatocally project doubt about Griffin's success while doing no such thing for Luck.

[brownsdownunder]

Next2 nothing.

Sorry mate, i should have posted a source on Joe Haden. It's on the Cleveland Browns website in the video section. It's the defensive backs review and i trusted it because Vic Carruci says it. I know that you know I'm not shitting on Joe in anyway because he's a boss, but from six picks to none is a big leap.

Exactly! you get my point! if we gave Colt help and he still sucked then I'd want a new QB. Absolutely. But he isn't going to be able to prove anything with the likes of MoMass.

The timing was bad, but did we honestly think it was going to be any good when "scheme change" and "lockout" came in to play? What i saw in Colt is irrelevant, i've posted it many times and it's either "stats are misleading" or "he doesn't pass my eye test". The comparisons are utterly stupid in my eyes. 99.999999999% of the time I'll see Colt McCoy low lights compared to RG3 highlights and people thinking they can actually judge between the two on that. People talk up how great a rusher he is but his stats are nothing compared to Vince Young.

At the end of the day, it's irrelevant. The drafting of RG3 only depends on now, and how the Browns are seeing what our offense is currently doing. What they see in Colt pre-draft will decide this draft. As Holgrem has already said, he has no doubts that Colt McCoy will be the hardest working Cleveland Brown this off season, and how hard he works and the result of that hard work will be the defining line between drafting RG3 and not in my eyes.

[Riffer X]

Originally Posted by choco

griffins reported anticipation problem may be real...we dont quite know yet.

however, colt has the same exact issue, as he has displayed over and over again. so im not sure shedding light on griffins knock does much for your argument.

i guess i dont really subscibe to the idea that a QB needs an all-pro team around him to develop, or to display his talent. having a great team around a QB certainly helps winning, but many of colts struggles are a result of his deficiencies. his poor pocket presence isn't a result of bad receivers or bad OL play. while im still no fan of trading up to get him, under no circumstances do you pass if he's there at 4. cause if colt needs an all-pro team to succeed, then he's never gonna be close to elite. great QB's make others better, rarely is the reverse true.

I don't get the whole "poor pocket presence" thing being assigned to Colt. I have always felt it is one of his strengths and intangibles, along with his ability to keep plays alive. Now last year would have been tough for any QB with the uncertain guard and RT play, plus not having a lot of play action and looking at 5 receivers doing 5 yard curls in a 9 man box.

I've said it many times, but IMO the whole "Colt is born to play the WCO" is a misnomer, he is made for the traditional NE offense under EM. Now he has to learn this new system which is quick hitting and progression based. It takes time and some help around him. However, the light bulb can go off in these situations, or you end up with another Wallace style career backup.

[jason j]

Originally Posted by Riffer X

I don't get the whole "poor pocket presence" thing being assigned to Colt. I have always felt it is one of his strengths and intangibles, along with his ability to keep plays alive. Now last year would have been tough for any QB with the uncertain guard and RT play, plus not having a lot of play action and looking at 5 receivers doing 5 yard curls in a 9 man box.

I've said it many times, but IMO the whole "Colt is born to play the WCO" is a misnomer, he is made for the traditional NE offense under EM. Now he has to learn this new system which is quick hitting and progression based. It takes time and some help around him. However, the light bulb can go off in these situations, or you end up with another Wallace style career backup.

It's not poor pocket presence per se with Colt. It is more translating what he sees pre-snap into where his danger areas are - where his pressure is most likely to come from. There is just a disconnect.

It is the QB's job to identify the defensive center, and shift the protection. But that still leaves some contingencies. He just seems to have difficulties processing what those are and what to do about them. Add to that the fact that he can't run away from NFL defenders, and you have a recipe for disaster... Or at least a lot of negative plays.

So it's less pocket presence and more defensive awareness.

-jj

[brownsdownunder]

Originally Posted by jason j

It's not poor pocket presence per se with Colt. It is more translating what he sees pre-snap into where his danger areas are - where his pressure is most likely to come from. There is just a disconnect.

It is the QB's job to identify the defensive center, and shift the protection. But that still leaves some contingencies. He just seems to have difficulties processing what those are and what to do about them. Add to that the fact that he can't run away from NFL defenders, and you have a recipe for disaster... Or at least a lot of negative plays.

So it's less pocket presence and more defensive awareness.

-jj

It depends to what extent he's been told he cannot audible. I think he shows great prediction of where the pressure is coming from given his ability to move out of the pocket or move around in the pocket to keep the play alive.

You Tube

Here is an example of outside the pocket. A defender is let through untouched at his back and he recognizes it instantly, out runs him and makes a nice play pretty much falling. An accurate 50 yard pass while the defender has hands on you isn't easy.

You Tube

And heres an example of him keeping it alive in the pocket. I know he ends up out of the pocket, but only because he has the awareness to move that bit extra to draw the third defender and send a precision rocket between two defenders 25+ yards to the back of the end zone.

Yes this doesn't happen every time, but it shows what he's capable of.

[jason j]

Originally Posted by brownsdownunder

It depends to what extent he's been told he cannot audible. I think he shows great prediction of where the pressure is coming from given his ability to move out of the pocket or move around in the pocket to keep the play alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xCs0...eature=related
Here is an example of outside the pocket. A defender is let through untouched at his back and he recognizes it instantly, out runs him and makes a nice play pretty much falling. An accurate 50 yard pass while the defender has hands on you isn't easy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toGeU...eature=related
And heres an example of him keeping it alive in the pocket. I know he ends up out of the pocket, but only because he has the awareness to move that bit extra to draw the third defender and send a precision rocket between two defenders 25+ yards to the back of the end zone.

Yes this doesn't happen every time, but it shows what he's capable of.

There is a big difference between calling audibles and setting the protection. Every quarterback has some responsibility for setting protection. They're the only one that can see all 11 defenders.

In the first example, he simply sets the protection incorrectly. The play calls for the tailback to fill off play action. Yet you've got a left slide on for the protection. With the TE in max protect, you've got 7 guys to block 5, but because of the shift, nobody is blocking the front side LB, and three guys on the back side are blocking no one. That is simply misreading the defense pre-snap.

Now he does a great job of getting away. But the guy shouldn't be there. When the TE blocks down, what did he think was going to happen? The LB is on a simple green dog, and is going to be in your hip pocket.

I'm not going to trifle with the throw. But consider, had he set the protection properly, and gotten the same blown coverage, maybe he can set up earlier, throw the ball out in front, the receiver doesn't have to turn and wait for the ball and that's a touchdown.

The second one, is exactly right. It's a 4 man pressure against 5 wide empty on 3rd and 12. Once the corner & safety declare off motion, there is no danger left. The right guard simply gets beaten. Colt does a nice job of sliding away from pressure and sticking the ball low and away in he end zone.

That said, this is where Colt is the most comfortable. This 5 wide shotgun look is the most similar to the offense he ran at Texas of anything the Browns run.


-jj

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by jason j

It's not poor pocket presence per se with Colt. It is more translating what he sees pre-snap into where his danger areas are - where his pressure is most likely to come from. There is just a disconnect.

It is the QB's job to identify the defensive center, and shift the protection. But that still leaves some contingencies. He just seems to have difficulties processing what those are and what to do about them. Add to that the fact that he can't run away from NFL defenders, and you have a recipe for disaster... Or at least a lot of negative plays.

So it's less pocket presence and more defensive awareness.

-jj

He sees 9 men in the box with a fenced in offensive game plan except when we play Cincy. Who is our receiving weapon you get excited about every week? Mine is Josh Cribbs if that says anything about what we have to work with. It's difficult to get pumped about the former backup USC TE or Alex Smith when Watson has a season of nagging injuries.

All the people that bellyached about Robiskie and MoMass when they wanted Mangini gone are now going with the convenient theme if Colt McCoy needs a ton of All Pros around him we need to change the QB. I'm not asking for All Pros - I'm asking for NFL caliber starters. Cribbs is supposed to be #3.

When you have 2 new playbooks in 2 years, it would be nice to see the right personnel fetching these passes that support the change to a new offense. McCoy's numbers on a bad team don't look any worse than other QBs 21 starts old on bad teams. If you're comfortable saying he'll never have it based on where this team is today; then go on thinking the only change necessary here is the QB and we don't need any draft picks. Just don't be that fan bellyaching the QB just needs help if that's what takes place.

[jason j]

Originally Posted by Flugel

He sees 9 men in the box with a fenced in offensive game plan except when we play Cincy. Who is our receiving weapon you get excited about every week? Mine is Josh Cribbs if that says anything about what we have to work with. It's difficult to get pumped about the former backup USC TE or Alex Smith when Watson has a season of nagging injuries.

All the people that bellyached about Robiskie and MoMass when they wanted Mangini gone are now going with the convenient theme if Colt McCoy needs a ton of All Pros around him we need to change the QB. I'm not asking for All Pros - I'm asking for NFL caliber starters. Cribbs is supposed to be #3.

When you have 2 new playbooks in 2 years, it would be nice to see the right personnel fetching these passes that support the change to a new offense. McCoy's numbers on a bad team don't look any worse than other QBs 21 starts old on bad teams. If you're comfortable saying he'll never have it based on where this team is today; then go on thinking the only change necessary here is the QB and we don't need any draft picks. Just don't be that fan bellyaching the QB just needs help if that's what takes place.

I'm not sure the two arguments are exclusive. What's best for a team is as much about situation as it is opportunity. The fact that the Browns can consider drafting RGIII, has as much to do with drafting 4th as it does with Colt McCoy.

The Browns have a chance to upgrade the quarterback position. That's no small consideration. I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. If we were talking about a stud OLB, would there be an uproar over the blood and sweat that Chris Gocong has given this team? Hell no. You replace him with a better athlete.

So when someone suggests we replace Colt McCoy with a more talented quarterback, everyone is somehow offended?

You get better by growing together and replacing your players with better ones. An average player in a key position is just as damaging as a bad player in another.

I don't know anyone who looks at McCoy & RGIII side by side and says, McCoy is the better choice. No matter how you slice it it's an upgrade.

There just seems to be an emotional attachment to Colt McCoy that I don't understand. Anyone can and will be replaced.

-jj