Personnel Comparison to the SF 49ers

[jason j]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

Wow... your not just drinking the RG3 coolaid.. Your guzzling it. I just don't see what your seeing..


So why do I say he looks like a project..this is why:

He seems to have problems reading defenses and has mechanics flaws with that 3/4 throwing style. He runs around a lot which hides a lot of his footwork issues too. He has serious happy feet in the pocket.. NFL qb's cannot survive long that way. Also, you cannot be running around like that in the nfl or you end up injured every year like Michael Vick. he also seems indecisive in the pocket frequently and takes a ton of sacks. 27 last year (in only 13 games).. NFL DE's are not so easily run away from either.. He already blew out a knee which is another strike. He also mostly worked as a shotgun qb.. So yeah.... I see him as a project in the NFL. He looks a whole lot like Andre Ware to me.. amazing.. absolutely amazing college QB.. but... NFL bust. ...

I am not saying he sucks..he does not.. He has a great arm and seems to be very accurate.. He is the 2nd best QB in the draft.. but he does not come without a lot of issues..which scares the heck out of me. If we draft him.. I will support him..but I'm against the pick.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Your highlighted buzz words...

"Reading Defenses." Through the eleven complete game films I've watched, I don't see it. And I've never had anyone able to show me anything that looks like a trend. He makes remarkably few bad throws. He will hang around in the pocket at times, if he doesn't get what he wants (adding to his sack numbers), but it's nothing I'd want to beat out of him. Most young quarterbacks tend to go the other way, and make poor decisions, bad throws, or cover up and collapse. It's a lot more difficult to teach a guy to hang in there, than it is to teach a guy to pull the rip chord.

His 3/4 delivery? Really? He's barely off his right ear. That's not a pristine over-the-top, but it's hardly an issue. Not with a release like his.

The "happy feet" is the one that gets me. He has active feet... right out of the John Gruden school of pocket readiness. But every time someone says happy feet, I beg the same request... show me an example, and more to the point, show me how his active feet affect his game negatively.

All they see is him bouncing around on his toes, and they say, "look, happy feet." Uh, no. Just staying "alive" in the pocket. The bounce allows him to rotate his base in order to set up quickly to throw.

You have to remember, he plays at Baylor. It's not like he's standing behind a wall of future NFL'ers... much less throwing to them. Although, he did have one.

If we agree on anything, it's that I concur... the ACL is a legit issue. Outside of that I can't seem to find anything that sticks.

I've seen a ton of criticism of the kid, I just can't find it in the tape.

-jj

[damajuki]

Ah ha. This is where Sez got his RG3 thread post from. Glad to see jj addressing it here.

One thing not mentioned in regards to RG3 is that he's EXCITING AS HELL to watch and maybe that's what jj means when he brings up the white/black thing: we simply haven't seen many QBs like RG3 and therefore the comparisons tend toward the easy and lazy. And you've got to admit that there is still a football bias towards athletic black QBs: if they are athletic, they are labeled negatively with all the things Sez posted, as opposed to "crafty" or "elusive" or positive words just as buzz-friendly.

And there is the Luck thing, too. Luck moves around plenty and very well but gets compared to Elway (okay there's the Stanford connection, too, I get it, but bear with me) while RG3 invariably gets compared to Vick, McNabb or Young.

Come now, that can't be all coincidence, can it? Again, I'm not calling it racism, I'm calling it easy and lazy.

It at least bears mentioning that it's entirely possible -- as jj just pointed out -- that RG3 is truly that rare thing in football: franchise QB. Rarer still, he could be a UNIQUE franchise QB who puts the whole package together. Rarest yet: he could play for the CLEVELAND BROWNS. That's something to savor, even just as a possibility, no?

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by damajuki

Ah ha. This is where Sez got his RG3 thread post from. Glad to see jj addressing it here.

One thing not mentioned in regards to RG3 is that he's EXCITING AS HELL to watch and maybe that's what jj means when he brings up the white/black thing: we simply haven't seen many QBs like RG3 and therefore the comparisons tend toward the easy and lazy. And you've got to admit that there is still a football bias towards athletic black QBs: if they are athletic, they are labeled negatively with all the things Sez posted, as opposed to "crafty" or "elusive" or positive words just as buzz-friendly.

The color of skin has no bearing on a QB's performance. Steve Young was white but ran 4.5s with an accurate trigger. In Tampa he was labelled as pond scum so the fans and media wanted him gone. They had to be sick to their stomachs seeing one of the most accurate QBs of all time threading the needle to Jerry Rice in the Superbowl. He timed that while Tampa fans and media were too preoccupied worrying who could take Trent Dilfer off their hands.

Previously, Doug Williams couldn't run like Steve Young so he only made it as far as Washington DC before he won a Superbowl with 5 TD passes or so. Those Tampa fans and media really knew how to peg every young QB before they all went on to Superbowls and Pro Bowls with other teams. Unfortunately, every one of those young QBs were NOT making everyone around them better when they played for a crappy franchise like Tampa as inexperienced QBs. Seems like the forgotten tradition of inexperienced QBs going through the development have inevitable turbulence and growing pains. The franchises that wish to construct the best foundation equip their most important player with tools to succeed unless they want to be just like Tampa.

RGIII is exciting in the Big 12; but so was Vince Young, Sam Bradford, Colt McCoy, Graham Harrell, Blaine Gabbert, Zac Robinson, Chase Daniels, Josh Freeman, Jason White and many others we never heard from again. They all read these so-called defenses from the Big 12. I usually saw the Big 12 possessed most of the highest rated passers in college football. Ready for this? Vince Young had the highest passer ratings in the country in his junior and final season. In order to win the National Championship in USC's front yard, he had to read every defense that former NFL DC/HC Carroll threw at him. VY is a backup on the 8-8 Dream Team today. I like athletic QBs that can escape the pocket and improvise as long as they can perform just as efficiently inside the pocket if a groin/hammy/leg injury confines them to the pocket. VY and Big Ben aren't nearly as exciting or efficient if leg injuries dictate throwing to primary or secondary targets from the pocket. I HAVE seen RGIII look wonderful from the pocket. However, I don't know where people are thinking RGIII doesn't run the ball very often though. If you haven't seen that inside scissors option read behind the fannies of his OGs than then you'll think it's a racial stereotype. Otherwise, don't shoot the messenger but you tell me if this looks like Bernie Kosar standing still behind Center - Rushing Stats: Griffin: 2,199yrds 4.3ypc 32TD's.

I'd LOVE to land RGIII but we're still drafting 4th if he is the next undisputed Peyton Manning. When/if we do draft RGIII, I'm going to look to you and Jason J to join me in defending why we are rooting for him instead of all the QBs we didn't draft. For some reason, it was an absolute no no to root for McCoy or Couch or Frye or Quinn over guys other teams drafted. Apparently, I'm not a part of the email distribution that got such a wonderful memo about fan etiquette. Yes, I really had to type such a thing on a Browns board. And if I dared to bring up injuries to already slim surroundings, I was supposed to accept those same excuses on behalf Sam Bradford, Christian Ponder, Blaine Gabbert, Josh Freeman. I was even informed poor Sam Bradford received a brand new playbook which meant he needed to throw away everything he learned as a rookie. Poor guy, that certainly couldn't be an excuse here in 2011. Good Lord! Just be prepared for whoever we draft that if they start off like Troy Aikman - the masses are gonna want Steve Walsh. And why? Because Troy Aikman wasn't making everyone around him better immediately. He needed a Herschel Walker trade that a team trading up for the next Peyton Manning won't have.

[Bronx Cheer]

If anything, Colt is more Walsh (smart QB with a so-so arm) than Aikman (the prototype), but don't let that get in the way of a good rant. You always argue to give QBs time to develop and cite Aikman, Manning and Young as examples. All three were total package #1 overall draft picks with gonzo passing stats in college. OF COURSE those guys got time to develop.

Look, I like Colt. I was keen to see him this season. I just see no reason to invest another year in him when the best case outcome is less production than we can get out of a Hasselback or Orton type. Had he flashed some brilliant play one or two games (call it the Grossman effect) but overall still finished with so-so numbers, I actually might be more inclined to give him time in the hope that he learns to limit the low points going into the future. As it turned out, though, he was consistently mediocre and rarely flashed those plays that give you hope of bigger things to come. Aikman struggled as a rookie, but also threw for 379 yards (then a rookie record) in his first season, and came within a game of the playoffs his second (despite injuries) and also went to a Pro-Bowl (I think). Manning threw for 3700 yards and 26 (26!) TDs his rookie season, and then 4000 yards his second. Young truly did struggle in Tampa on a horrific squad way worse than our Browns, but he also made enough spectacular plays to make Bill Walsh want to trade for him (Grossman!).

Now, I ask. Stop citing stats of Hall of Famers (which when you look close enough show that they don't support your argument) and tell us what has Colt done to inspire such confidence that he will improve.

The Cleveland Browns 2014 starting QB is not on the roster, and we need to explore every reasonable avenue to get him.

[Bronx Cheer]

Jason-

Man, you really are buying into RGIII, aren't you? Doesn't his college offense scare you? Hitting guys in the hands when they're wide open is one thing. Doing that when they have a DB in textbook trail position and safety help is another thing entirely.

I agree he has all the physical tools. His college experience however worries the crap out of me. Every time I watch tape of him, 40% of the pass plays are bubble screens or busted plays where he scrambles and either runs or hits a wide open receiver after the scramble. The vast majority of the remaining pass plays involve throwing to insanely wide open receivers because nobody in that conference plays defense. He gets kudos for spotting the wide open guy and delivering the ball accurately and on time, but spotting and hitting the NFL-open guy is a whole other issue.

I would draft him at #4 (not sure I would trade up), but I don't see him as anything more than your typical second or third QB in the draft type of QB prospect.

[Masters]

Whatch several of his games, or even some of the clips Jason posted, or the detail breakdown report from the one scout I posted. RG3 has shown he can hit guys not wide open who have a CB on their hip. RG3 wasn't just hitting guys running free all game long. You don't average close to 11 Y/A by having 40% of your passes as bubble screens.

[Bronx Cheer]

Originally Posted by Masters

Whatch several of his games, or even some of the clips Jason posted, or the detail breakdown report from the one scout I posted. RG3 has shown he can hit guys not wide open who have a CB on their hip. RG3 wasn't just hitting guys running free all game long. You don't average close to 11 Y/A by having 40% of your passes as bubble screens.

I have watched several of his games this season, plus the usual Youtube stuff. (Didn't see any clips from Jason in this thread, though). I still came away with this impression. I didn't say 40% were bubbles, I said 40% were either bubbles or busted (scramble) plays where big gains come from RG's legs extending the time for a CB to lose his man and not from an NFL style pocket pass. You do know that Graham Harrell put up insane numbers in the same offense right? Defense in that conference is a joke, and the bubble may not average 11 ypa, but it does average almost twice the damage as a similar play would do in the NFL.

He's a great prospect - a legit top 5 pick. I just don't think he is a once in a generation prospect given the legit questions about how he'll adjust to playing under C and to throwing regularly into tight windows.

[Masters]

Originally Posted by Bronx Cheer

I have watched several of his games this season, plus the usual Youtube stuff. (Didn't see any clips from Jason in this thread, though). I still came away with this impression. I didn't say 40% were bubbles, I said 40% were either bubbles or busted (scramble) plays where big gains come from RG's legs extending the time for a CB to lose his man and not from an NFL style pocket pass. You do know that Graham Harrell put up insane numbers in the same offense right? Defense in that conference is a joke, and the bubble may not average 11 ypa, but it does average almost twice the damage as a similar play would do in the NFL.

He's a great prospect - a legit top 5 pick. I just don't think he is a once in a generation prospect given the legit questions about how he'll adjust to playing under C and to throwing regularly into tight windows.

I misread, but 40% is still seems a bit of an exaggeration. The clips and breakdown I was refering to are in the RG3 on this page, and in the RG3 thread in Draft Propect folder. There is a lot of film on RG3 making pocket throws, including with him manimuplating the saftey (something very few college QBs do).

The offense RG3 plays in and Harrell play in are not the same offense. Sure they have similarities, but are not the same.

RG3 has taken plenty of snaps under center. One of the clips (I think it was in one of Jason's posts) shows RG3 in 3 WR/1TE/1RB set PA pass from under center. There are also plenty out there (including in one of Jason's post) showing him hitting guys in a tight window. Now sure, he is still going to have get used to more play under center. As to having to throw more often into tight windows, well that's pretty much a welcome to the NFL for every QB coming from college. Luck will have to make that transitions, just as every other QB in the NFL had to. RG3 has all tools to be able to do that.

[Masters]

Bronx, the clips I am refering to are in the RG3 thread, on page two http://www.barkinghard.com/forums/cl...i-draft-2.html

[Bronx Cheer]

Watched them. Nothing much to change my opinion as they are highlight videos. He completes like 10 passes in the A&M video. Two of which are "NFL level" : pass on a streak which is underthrown (the receiver makes an excellent adjustment against 1-on-1 coverage on a DB that never looks for the ball), and a short flanker slant at the goal line. The rest are of the zip code variety (as in, the nearest defender isn't within). Watching full game videos really underscore what I am talking about. Very little in terms of making plays when there is decent coverage.

Don't take this the wrong way - very few QBs coming out of college show this ability (even the ones who turn out to be good). The ones that do show it are either gunslingers with questions about their judgment and ability to read Ds (Anderson, Plummer, Mallet, Foles, Big Ben, etc.) or unquestionable number 1 talents (Palmer, Bledsoe, Manning x2, Luck, Ryan, maybe even Barkley) who knew they were by far the best player on the field every Saturday. It could actually be a good thing that RGIII was tutored to be safe with the ball considering the chances were that somebody would be wide open on either this play or the next. Nonetheless, it is a very important quality needed in an NFL QB for which I have not much evidence of RGIII possessing. Remember, there were even grumblings from the CLE coaching staff this season that Colt had to pull the trigger more often, and he came from the same type of college tape showing receivers galloping unmolested against Big 12 defenses.

[Masters]

We simply see completely different things when we watch full game film of RG3.

[Bronx Cheer]

Not a problem, Masters. I am married, so am fully familiar with somebody telling me I am dense or delusional. Sometimes, even both.