Personnel Comparison to the SF 49ers

[Flugel]

I thought I'd do some research to see what CHANGED the SF 49ers from the crummy football they played the previous 6 years. Here's where their most recent starting lineups came from:

OFFENSE:
LT J Staley 1st round pick 28th overall from C. Michigan
LG M Iupati 1st round pick 17th overall from Idaho
C J Goodwin 10.9 million $ free agent signing from New Orleans
RG C Rachal 2nd round pick 39th overall from USC
RT A Davis 1st round pick 11th overall from Rutgers
QB A Smith 1st round pick 1st overall from Utah
WR M Crabtree 1st round pick 10th overall from Texas Tech
WR T Ginn Jr acquired via trade former 1st round pick at #9 overall from OSU
TE V Davis 1st round pick 6th overall from Maryland
HB D Walker 6th round 175th overal from C. Missouri
RB F Gore 3rd round pick 65th overall from Miami

1 more guy for the 1st 14-15 weeks WR B Edwards FA - 1st round 3rd overall from Michigan by Cleveland

DEFENSE:
LDE R McDonald 3rd round pick 97th overal from Florida
NT I Sopoaga - undrafted
RDE J Smith - 45 million $ FA - drafted 1st round 4th overall from Missouri by Cincy
LOLB A Smith - 1st round pick 7th overall from Missouri
LILB N Bowman - 3rd round pick 91st overall from Penn State
RILB P Willis - 1st round pick 11th overall from Mississippi
ROLB A Brooks - former supplemental pick acquired via waivers from Cincy
LCB C Rogers - FA - drafted 1st round 9th overall from Auburn by Washington
SS D Whitner - 11.75 million $ FA - drafted 1st round 8th overall from OSU
FS D Goldson - 4th round 126th overall from Washington
RCB C Culliver - 3rd round 80th overall from South Carolina

This was a 6-10 team as recently as 2010. After some growing pains, established chemistries and some additional smart picks/acquisitions - they improved to getting a bye week in the post season. Doesn't this look like a fun group to play gridiron chess with?

The ongoing debate is what to conclude from a QB with a forgettable first 25 starts? Can he get better (even after the first 6 OCs got fired) once the gridiron chess table changes his margin of error to extremely comfortable? Pretty nice when your defense keeps the opponent's score low, you start 1-2 drives inside the red zone and you have a ton of high round draft picks with some ideal FAs in the 22 man starting lineup on both sides of the ball. Of course, there's always the theory that Alex Smith just woke up an efficient QB in the 7th year.

Alex Smith

Season	Team	G		QBRat	Comp	Att	Pct	Yds	Y/G	Y/A	TD	Int		Rush	Yds	Y/G	Avg	TD		Sack	YdsL		Fum	FumL
2005-06	San Francisco	9		40.8	84	165	50.9	875	97.2	5.3	1	11		30	103	11.4	3.4	0		29	185		11	3
2006-07	San Francisco	16		74.8	257	442	58.1	2890	180.6	6.5	16	16		44	147	9.2	3.3	2		35	202		10	5
2007-08	San Francisco	7		57.2	94	193	48.7	914	130.6	4.7	2	4		13	89	12.7	6.8	0		17	121		6	5
2009-10	San Francisco	11		81.5	225	372	60.5	2350	213.6	6.3	18	12		24	51	4.6	2.1	0		22	134		2	1
2010-11	San Francisco	11		82.1	204	342	59.6	2370	215.5	6.9	14	10		18	60	5.5	3.3	0		25	140		4	2
2011-12	San Francisco	16		90.7	273	445	61.3	3144	196.5	7.1	17	5		52	179	11.2	3.4	2		44	263		7	2

[Solon16]

7 first rounders on Offense.... We have 2
5 first rounders on defense...We have 2
WE SUCK ASS AT DRAFTING! There is no comparison

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Solon16

7 first rounders on Offense.... We have 2
5 first rounders on defense...We have 2
WE SUCK ASS AT DRAFTING! There is no comparison

BINGO! And when 3 are olinemen, 1 is a WR and the other is a TE with 4.3 speed - guess how much easier the passing game gets? Notice the QB passer ratings getting better as 1 pawn after another got replaced by legitimate chess pieces.

Now factor in how often their defense and STs gave them the football inside the opponent's red zone every week. Pretty nice perk if you ask me.

The point is Alex Smith was once talented enough to be drafted 1st overall. He didn't look/play like a first round QB until his 7th season Solon. We could keep drafting QBs; but unless we get better at equipping the QBs with legit tools/weapons - we're defeating the purpose. You explained exactly why above Solon.

[Sez.EJ]

Great post.. what many of us have been saying for a long time.. The QB will make little difference until the players around the QB and on defense get much better. Not to say a team has to be stacked up with 1st and 2nd rounders like San Fran.. they don't.. but you have to draft a whole lot better than we have.. Heckert is starting to make a dent in it. But he only has 2 drafts under his belt heree and we are a still long way off from matching up in our division.

[YtownBacker]

I like that they spent money in FA and top draft picks to put a outstanding OL in place.

You can find depth throughout the draft but you got to hit on your first rounders. Those are the picks you build your team around.

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by Flugel

BINGO! And when 3 are olinemen, 1 is a WR and the other is a TE with 4.3 speed - guess how much easier the passing game gets? Notice the QB passer ratings getting better as 1 pawn after another got replaced by legitimate chess pieces.

Now factor in how often their defense and STs gave them the football inside the opponent's red zone every week. Pretty nice perk if you ask me.

The point is Alex Smith was once talented enough to be drafted 1st overall. He did look/play like a first round QB until his 7th season Solon. We could keep drafting QBs; but unless we get better at equipping the QBs with legit tools/weapons - we're defeating the purpose. You explained exactly why above Solon.

I have explained nothing but the fact that the Browns are the worst drafting team since 99. Ask Detroit if they would rather have Stafford? they were 0-16 and then drafted him...what was there record with him playing a full season? what was the record of the falcons before Ryan? Giants before Eli? SD before Rivers? Denver before Tebow(giggles)
The cyclically circular argument has gone around and come around in nearly ever thread for 12 years. tired of it...the Browns need a Franchise QB PERIOD!

[Sez.EJ]

No one is saying our team couldn't use a franchise QB..but you cannnot elevate turds to stardom.. All the QB's you mention in Solon's post .. are surrounded by talent. Talent can be elevated by a great QB.. turds can only be elevated to crap.

A great QB with no time to throw, and no one to make plays is worthless. The 2006 Steelers OL was decimated by injuries. Pissburgh went 8-8 and Pigben led the league in Interceptions with 23. When his OL is healthy,..they have made the playoffs and contended nearly every year. Not to mention..they have always had good WR's a good run game and a solid D to assist him..but take away the blocking.. he sucked.... No one can convince me the Josh Cribbs or Little are currently great WR's.. Cribbs may look good..but only compared to other Browns WR's that suck.. Compared to the rest of the WR's in the league league.. he's just another guy.

So.. not only does our OL leak like a spaghetti strainer.. we lack playmakers and pass catchers.. double whammy on any QB. We set any QB up for failure unless we fix those things first. We have never fixed those things in the last 10+ years.. We keep rotating QB's (10 or 11 different QB's at this point) thinking that will change things.. It has never worked.. .. cuz we never fixed the issues of the OL or the playmakers....That being said.. I will again say..no one disagrees a franchise qb would not help.. But without the necessary tools around him..what's the point.

[Solon16]

Originally Posted by Sez.EJ

No one is saying our team couldn't use a franchise QB..but you cannnot elevate turds to stardom.. All the QB's you mention in Solon's post .. are surrounded by talent. Talent can be elevated by a great QB.. turds can only be elevated to crap.

A great QB with no time to throw, and no one to make plays is worthless. The 2006 Steelers OL was decimated by injuries. Pissburgh went 8-8 and Pigben led the league in Interceptions with 23. When his OL is healthy,..they have made the playoffs and contended nearly every year. Not to mention..they have always had good WR's a good run game and a solid D to assist him..but take away the blocking.. he sucked.... No one can convince me the Josh Cribbs or Little are currently great WR's.. Cribbs may look good..but only compared to other Browns WR's that suck.. Compared to the rest of the WR's in the league league.. he's just another guy.

So.. not only does our OL leak like a spaghetti strainer.. we lack playmakers and pass catchers.. double whammy on any QB. We set any QB up for failure unless we fix those things first. We have never fixed those things in the last 10+ years.. We keep rotating QB's (10 or 11 different QB's at this point) thinking that will change things.. It has never worked.. .. cuz we never fixed the issues of the OL or the playmakers....That being said.. I will again say..no one disagrees a franchise qb would not help.. But without the necessary tools around him..what's the point.

Then lets fucking get 1!...That's IT! No more need to discuss this same thread for last 9 years! The sooner the better! done with the same argument...

Tom you know I am Defense and OLine guy...NO MORE!

I am about a franchise QB...It took me a fking long time to get it...to get here...fought thru countless battles defending protection, and talent at skilled positions......but It is the QB ! Plain and simple! It always has been since rules changes. i.e. circa tuck rule!

Look...enuff with the fking O-Line...we have 2 probowlers...wtf do you want! Enough with the shit...! Wr ? we are an FA away.... We have great opportunity to get a guy like Broyles Toon Wright, floyd, jeffrey, edwards,whatchaku. la maichael james, TR, Wilson from VT...WE NEED A QB!!! Colt aint it!

Sez u r like a hampster on the wheel...every year....keep runnin buddy!

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Solon16

I have explained nothing but the fact that the Browns are the worst drafting team since 99. Ask Detroit if they would rather have Stafford? they were 0-16 and then drafted him...what was there record with him playing a full season? what was the record of the falcons before Ryan? Giants before Eli? SD before Rivers? Denver before Tebow(giggles)
The cyclically circular argument has gone around and come around in nearly ever thread for 12 years. tired of it...the Browns need a Franchise QB PERIOD!

Giggles aside with the Tebow reference, I appreciate the pleasant reminder of what McCoy did vrs 3 consecutive 2010 playoff teams when we had a healthy Ben Watson worthy of go to guy status and a healthy Hillis contributing another 61 receptions. We were 2-1 with our loss in OT following Stuckey's fumble at the Jets' 30 yard line. Our other 2 QBs weren't really beating anybody. Consequently, my first impression of McCoy was he made his teammates better than the alternatives just like Tebow. Many PREFER to define McCoy in his next 12 starts without a healthy Hillis or a healthy Watson plus a new playbook, new OC and a new inexperienced, primary target that led the league in dropped passes. I should have witnessed a 6 million $ alternative at QB with WCO experience winning when we allegedly got our biggest anchor off the field. Trouble was the Skelton's scoring pace in Arizona got a little overwhelming while your Kevin Kolb could only watch the way it is supposed to be done.

Nice spin on San Diego. When Rivers preferred holding out to playing football, it was Drew Brees that actually led SD to 12-4. The SAME Drew Brees that compelled San Diego to draft a QB with the 1st overall pick. Turns out the most significant additions to that franchise were Antonio Gates and Keenan McCardell. Ever heard of them? By the time Philip Rivers started his first game, his teammates had already been to the playoffs a couple different seasons. You left the most important part of that one out rather conveniently.

Anyway, Matt Ryan is currently the ONLY recent QB I've seen joining a BAD franchise and turning them around immediately. While I understand your frustration Solon, I don't think all these Peyton Mannings were as easy to find on our door step as often as you've seen them since 2007. In 2010 Holmgren inquired about the trade value of Sam Bradford; and they weren't willing to trade. Today, I'm reading he just needs weapons to throw to. The other alternative to what we landed in round 3 was Jimmy Clausen somewhere in round 2. Are we understanding this recent supply and demand any better?

We've drafted 2 QBs in round 1 ONLY to watch Derek Anderson working with KWII, Braylon Edwards and Joe J. If Derek Anderson can win 10 games with a WR capable of 16 TD receptions plus a TE commanding Safety attention - what does our very own history teach us if we allow it? Surrounding talent can = a Cinderella season for EVERY Trent Dilfer alive. Meanwhile, journeyman Kelly Holcomb started the ONLY playoff game we had; and sported the ONLY passing yardage over 428 yards with the SAME receiving corps Couch could never do that with (regardless of excuses).

I think you'll find we AGREE that Matthew Stafford is a GREAT pick if you can protect and nourish such an investment. Stafford landed on IR in 2009 and 2010 to show you they how many years out of 3 they protected their investment. The alternative to Stafford (Sanchez) was on our doorstep in 2009. He was drafted by a 9-7 team that relied heavily on running the ball for success while they were 7-7 before the last 2 opponents rested all their starters in the final 2 games so they could remain 9-7. Today, NY is going backward as the media, teammates and fans are getting restless.

When you have a 6'5" WR that runs 4.3s and can jump out of the building - you can throw jump balls, alley ooops, rainbows, slants, fades, posts, flags, outs, drags, whatever.... Let's stop pretending we're holding a Calvin Johnson hostage to a terrible QB here. Have you listened to 1 former QB, coach or WR covering our games? ALL of them have studied the passing game here on film and concluded they think McCoy CAN be a good QB in this league if the Browns would only get him some help. While I'd LOVE to add an upside and ceiling of RGIII, the last great Big 12 hopes are currently wondering how much better NFL life would be if they just had some tools for success. You can't ask a carpenter to go build a house without a hammer, nails and ladder any more than you can ask a young QB to go build a franchise without the most vital tools.

I guess it's only okay to conclude poor Sam Bradford just needs weapons to throw to because he was a 1st overall pick. And Alex Smith got 7 years and 6 Offensive Coordinator fatalities to survive until the day they had the list of surrounding cast I alluded to. 2011 in SF was a very recent reminder of the Trent Dilfer story in Baltimore.

[Masters]

Alex Smith has had a handful of good games over his career. Any one really believe he is going to lead SF to SB really? I don't, and I don't think SF believes it either. It took 7 years for SF to get a head couch who relized what he had in Alex Smith, a game manager, and then to ask him to do just that. Alex Smith was never really talented enough to be draft #1 over all. It just happens a SF front office (people who lost their jobs) happened to feel he was. I am pretty sure if they had that one to do over, Smith would not have been their choice. With hindside knowldege, Alex Smith probably doesn't even go in the first round at all.

Look at all the theoretical talent on O in SF, and yet their O was nothing steller.

I don't know what Colt will fully develop into, but if Alex Smith is the standard we are looking for, I don't know what to say. I sure don't want to wait 7 years for CLE to be average at best at the QB position. If CLE has a shot at an RG3 w/o selling the farm, it would be a mistake for them not to and to tie their hopes that in 7 years McCoy is Alex Smith

[Enigmatic Evil]

Quarterback IS NOT EVERYTHING... The Quarterbacks that DO make that kind of difference are a 1% kind of anomaly that only a few teams in any given NFL "generation" can really stake a claim to having. The Browns may need to have one, sure, we haven't had one since Tim Couch and we really over-boiled that egg until it tasted like shit, why do that to another QB when the team's not ready to make that step.

IMO, a guy like RGIII is not going to be the calibre of play maker that THIS team can reap the benefits of. Look at Carolina w/ Cam Newton this past season. HE has enough talent that he made that AWFUL Carolina offense look DANGEROUS at times simply because he has a bomb arm and Steve Smith is still capable at WR... sure he threw picks but thats what happens when the panthers most likely looked to Newton to make things happen on the field.

The Browns this season really placed similar pressure on Colt McCoy's shoulders and we learned he's not ready to be an NFL QB with the roster we had last year. He ran for his life, he showed accuracy issues he had never displayed in his previous years, he looked scattershot out there and watching the games it was really no mystery why... the team around him is garbage.

The reason San Fransisco had such a good year was because of their excellent defensive play. Someone on Twitter, or maybe it was here (it was probably here I read it) said that a Ravens/SF superbowl would be a showcase of two Dilfers w/ excellent Defense on the other side, it would have been the Yawn Bowl. Did Alex Smith REALLY look that different out there? His INT's were down, his yardage went up but a lot of his numbers look identical to other years. Could it be that a little care in building a team AROUND a QB they put a large investment into has finally started to pay off? PATIENCE building a team shows that SF made the right call in STICKING with Alex Smith, similarly to how maybe we don't want to give up on Colt?

Honestly I'm just drawing my own lines here I didn't even read the thread I'm going to do so now lol. IF I stomped on anyones toes or repeated points, I'm sorry.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Masters

Alex Smith has had a handful of good games over his career. Any one really believe he is going to lead SF to SB really? I don't, and I don't think SF believes it either. It took 7 years for SF to get a head couch who relized what he had in Alex Smith, a game manager, and then to ask him to do just that. Alex Smith was never really talented enough to be draft #1 over all. It just happens a SF front office (people who lost their jobs) happened to feel he was. I am pretty sure if they had that one to do over, Smith would not have been their choice. With hindside knowldege, Alex Smith probably doesn't even go in the first round at all.

Look at all the theoretical talent on O in SF, and yet their O was nothing steller.

I don't know what Colt will fully develop into, but if Alex Smith is the standard we are looking for, I don't know what to say. I sure don't want to wait 7 years for CLE to be average at best at the QB position. If CLE has a shot at an RG3 w/o selling the farm, it would be a mistake for them not to and to tie their hopes that in 7 years McCoy is Alex Smith

Totally agree. Isn't Alex Smith an ideal example of what can happen if you overrate the WRONG QB at the top of the draft and enable a BETTER QB like Aaron Rodgers to fall on somebody else's door step? Smith's late buzz and hype rivaled what's going on with RGIII right now. It got extensive and invasive enough that there wasn't another QB close enough to him. Hence Aaron Rodgers dropped to #24 because his ceiling was even more widely misunderstood than Alex Smith's ceiling.

Anyway, why does RGIII have to mean that Case Keenum or Brandon Weeden can't be a great alternative that would fall to us at a later draft slot without losing 1 single pick? I think we need to get back to understanding WHY I chose the path of this discussion. I appreciate Riffer pointing that out so I'm not debating with people that agree with me. It's about HOW to handle the current supply and demand of QBs that have been on our doorstep since the 2007 draft. I'm not seeing that we refused any Peyton Mannings on our doorstep on our way to the outcome of McCoy in late round 3 of 2010. Colt McCoy actually became the least of 3 evils between Sam Bradford at #1 overall, Jimmy Clausen in round 2 and McCoy in late round 3 if we compare their ratings with the salary cap hits.

I'm ALL for adding RGIII if we don't have to trade away too much significant potential help we'll need for other areas. I also understand Dan Snyder will be willing to part with a bunch of 1st round picks ahead. The SAME owner that already drafted Jason Campbell, Heath Shuler and Patrick Ramsey in round 1. He's about 50 cards short of a full deck so we better prepare ourselves for what's ahead in terms of how he will impact the asking price for RGIII at #2 overall. I DO really think RGIII would be a wonderful as long as acquiring him isn't at the expense of landing the tools he'll need to succeed and defensive help that can get him the ball occasionally in the same red zones Alex Smith often was able to begin many drives with in 2011.

I realize Jason J could sell tanning beds at the equator with his impressive takes about RGIII. I enjoyed the post you cut and pasted every bit as much. To be honest, Sam Bradford was generating a REALLY impressive pre-draft buzz among scouts where the only concerns were seemingly durability. Today, what's the biggest thing that was written about St Louis before they added Brandon Lloyd late in 2011? Sam Bradford needs tools to work with in order to get the passing game where they want it to be.

If we say forget the upcoming drafts and this one for 1 guy, is RGIII good enough to build a franchise without any tools around him? If so, he'd be like a talented carpenter without a ladder, hammer and nails so are we certain he could handle such a culture shock? Changing Baylor is a GREAT sign BUT that WR he threw to was pretty special. I can't pretend I know that much about him to say he's on that level. Therefore, I'm trying to see what we can do as alternatives like mentioning Case Keenum and Brandon Weeden in the prospects thread as guys that could fall to our door step while we address countless glaring needs here. Right now I don't see a Steve Smith talent here just patiently awaiting a Cam Newton to remind fans of his skill set. In saying that, was Cam Newton a big enough difference to where Carolina could handle NOT drafting in round 1 for the next couple years? Again, let's remember what Dan Snyder can do to the asking price.