Do We Need to START Considering a Couple Bad Boys here and there?

[Flugel]

Folks,
All my life, I noticed teams with complete assholes WON consistently. I remembered Al's Davis drafting a DE (Scott Davis?) from the University of Illinois that was in jail on draft day. You could say he was a transfer student to Attica State. Matt Millen was an absolute Richard Head if you know what I mean. I'm still not sure if he was better suited for Penn State or State Penn; but I remembered hearing Paterno didn't like him very much by the time he left his program. The Oakland secondary hunted heads but when it was the Steelers getting victimized - I lost my morals and dug it sincerely. That team loved to hit people after the whistle and get into fights on the field between plays. One of their former players spoke of a sign in their lockerroom that read - "if you're not cheating - you're not trying hard enough." That just re-assures me Al's Davis didn't recently lose his mind because there's no evidence he ever found it in the first place. "Just Win Baby!"

Another example was the Cocaine Cowboys whether it was Michael Irvin or Hollwood Henderson. Kevin Gogan brought his goonmanship BETWEEN the whistles from Oakland to Dallas (or viceversa). Duane Thomas was a jerk. One of the star Cowboy linemen died of an overdose Tuinea or someone else not too many moons ago. Alot of trouble in Paradise there over the years.

Sports Illustrated did a casket count of Steelers who compromised ethics. Jack Lambert defined douche bag when the ONLY way he coult hit our 180 pound Brian Sipe was 10 yards out bounds 5 seconds after the whistle. The Steelers this decade are winning with a rapist QB, a team doctor who was allegedly going to get investigated for excessive volumes of HGH purchases (Rooneys wallets quieted that right down), Joey Pottymouth, and Santonio Holmes. Didn't James Harrison have some recent domestic violence issues? Those Steelers love to get rough with the ladies don't they? Speaking of which, Greg Lloyd was their hero from the 90s and he was in the papers for bashign his wife's teeth in with a pistol shaft and then puttign a gun to his son's temple when he was tied to a chair witnessing the ANGRY dentist act between dad and mom.

How about the Ratbirds? They looked like an ad for the Longest Yard with Ray Lewis and Jamal Lewis wearing orange uniforms. Tony Sirgusa had an epic cheap shot on Rich Gannon after the throw. Billick became a Head Coach that knew more about F-Bombs than pass bombs in his offense. Was he EVER the genious they said he was or did Randy Moss get him more cred than he deserved for orchestrating an offense and playing chess with all the right attack pieces under the design of Denny Green's offense already implemented? Shannon Sharpe TRIED to be a jerk but if you put a mouth guard in his mouth and added it to the pronounciation of "Bubbalo Bills" - nobody understood his noises any better than they would baby crib Shakespeare.

As it's been noted all week, Lawrence Taylor ignited quite a few successful coaching gigs from the ashes of the Scott Brunner-Phil Simms tragedy of 1-15 in NEW YORK of all places. LT was an absolute MESS off the field and I read a story where he'd show up late on game day still drunk from Saturday partying. However, when it came time to hunt QBs and scare opponents - OCs league wide prepared game plans around the dangers of LT's excellence on the grid-iron. Elway looked Ben Johnson against us in the AFC Championship Game. However, when he had LT chasing him into George Martin and Carl Banks on the other side - he looked like he was wearing Kosar's 20 pound cleats. Champions always seem to have a bad boy or two.

It's ALWAYS important to have guys we WANT to root for. That said, it was refreshing to have a Webster Slaughter cocky enough to talk back to Rod Woodson and then beat the Steeler secondary for the game winning score in overtime. Kevin Mack may have been suspended for Cocaine; but what was a better memory than seeing him KO Greg Lloyd like an absolute freight train weighing 240 pounds at the velocity of 4.5 forty speed? That was hotter than the tropics!

I'm beginning to rethink we need ALL of our players to be NICE guys or terrific characters. The Jets just added Holmes, The Bengals drafted a few no-no's last year while adding a troubled character from Chicago by the name of Cedric Benson. Didn't they make the playoffs for the first time in quite some time? I'm not wishing for rapists or drug addicts/dealers as much as I want swagger and a mentality that says "you gotta deal with my ass for 60 minutes so give your soul to God because your ass belongs to me!" I'm just saying we might want to add a couple mean basterds that RE-PAY the Steelers for hitting our QB 10 yards out of bounds the way Turkey Jones double dribbled Bradshaw back in the day. You want to hit our QB late? There will be similar consequences. My dad took us to that game and what should have been Sipe vrs Bradshaw became David Mays vrs Bradshaw's backup. A very fond family memory of the Pittsburgh rivalry and it was the first Browns game I went to in Cleveland. Nobody ever learned what tamed Jack Lambert that day; but your buddy Flugel remembers that David Mays was also a Dentist and Lambert was missing his 2 front teeth shortly after they met one another.

Let's get that swagger and cocky player back on the field here. That always means we're doing better than helping the ballcarrier who just scored on us back to his feet. I've seen enough of that sequel in the last decade. Choir boys don't want to kick off and kick ass - because it's a conflict of interest...
- Tom F.

[Shep]

T-Fluges and I are back in agreement: It's FOOTBALL. It's a nasty sports for modern day pirates, not choirboys. No, you don't want drug addicts or rapists, but you also don't want a team filled with girl scouts.

I always say that it isn't just body type that makes one of my sons a football player and the other a volleyball player (and a damn good one, I might add). Jack is a bit of a tool, a total alpha male. Cooper is chill. Honestly, I'd rather travel and hang out with Cooper.

But if I were building a football team, I'd start with Jack.

[TheBestPlayersPlay]

It's definitely a good thing to have players with a nasty streak. Can you find those players who are absolute animals on the field, and good citizens off of it? Absolutely ...although I think it's probably more difficult to find that coveted combo, than say getting the guy who beats people ...on and off the field.

Also, I think if you have enough solid character guys on your team already ...it becomes easier to grab a higher risk/higher reward type guy with an ill temperament, because the guys with character will tend to reign him in a bit.

On another note ...the NFL has been, and continues to be sissified over the years, so getting the guys who thrive on late hits, gouging out eyes on the bottom of the pile, stepping on necks, etc ....is sadly a thing of the past.

[DawgFan]

There is a difference in being a 'bad character' guy, and being HYPER COMPETITIVE.

Bad character guys may win you a game or two here and there with their attitude...but they are just as likely to implode and screw you over (see Porter in Miami...how long did that last?).

HYPER COMPETITIVE guys are the guys that just plain refuse to LOSE! These are the guys that will rip the opponents head off...then go out for a beer with him after the game. There is nothing personal in it...they just won't lose if there is anything they can do about it.

I think too many people see a couple bad seeds on winning teams and assume that it is THEIR presence that is making the team win. On the contrary...I believe it is the great COMPETITIVE players around them that are keeping them under control that allow that 'bad seed' guy to play within himself enough to get the job done.

Just take a look at the Bengals...if all it takes is a bunch of bad attitude, bad seed guys....that team would be the SB champ for the past decade.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by Shep

T-Fluges and I are back in agreement: It's FOOTBALL. It's a nasty sports for modern day pirates, not choirboys. No, you don't want drug addicts or rapists, but you also don't want a team filled with girl scouts.

I always say that it isn't just body type that makes one of my sons a football player and the other a volleyball player (and a damn good one, I might add). Jack is a bit of a tool, a total alpha male. Cooper is chill. Honestly, I'd rather travel and hang out with Cooper.

But if I were building a football team, I'd start with Jack.

Good to hear about your son Shep! Sounds like he's working his glutes off BUT I also get the impressive he's very instinctive based on what I've read from you and heard about in our conversations. THAT will make him look fast on film; AND if need be it could help him in future discussions with Division I football scouts.

Rey M or the ILBer from Florida didn't run stellar 40s; but it didn't stop either player from going to Head Coaches that were once very good NFL DCs. TSuggs only ran a 4.9 but you'd never correlate that to the way he plays so intinctively on Sundays.

Speaking of LBers, I'm surprised nobody wants to hold Brian Cushing just as accountable/responsible for his drug addiction as Rey M. Makes you wonder WHO the better player would be in the absence of anabolics. I wonder if his performance levels drop at the same rate Merriman's did after getting busted for dirty urine. Doesn't this remind us of "if it sounds too good to be true - it usually is?" I'm surprised the Steelers didn't move Heaven and Earth to get Cushing. Sounds like the Kevin Greene, Joey Porter, James Harrison & Greg Lloyd roidheads they've always preferred there.
- Tom F.

[Shep]

Yeah, Jack closes 10 yards faster than anybody in the county, according to his position coach. That sub 4.0 shuttle time psyched up the RB coach so much he texted Jack... who is now playing the 2, or H-back, in addition to linebacker.

I'm pretty sure he's a legit 4.65 right now... and for a high school junior with no prep in 40s, that's crazy fast. If there are three guys on his team who can run faster, I'd be surprised.

[King of Kings]

Originally Posted by Flugel

Speaking of LBers, I'm surprised nobody wants to hold Brian Cushing just as accountable/responsible for his drug addiction as Rey M.

That's because Brian Cushing isn't a drug addict.

[mz.]

I'll never understand the following, and I have been saying it forever:

Mangini demands high character. Fuck, he HARPS on it. Yet, he's, at best, kind of dirty and at worst, a fucking cheater who either knew about Belichick cheating his ass off or was complicit in said cheating. Not to mention the fact that he went narc on BB the minute he joined the Jets. Mangini is no choir boy, and nobody can argue against this (without looking foolish) yet we can't draft Dez Bryant because he had shitty parents. What a hypocrite. That's how you stay shitty...

[Crow]

Mangini likes high character guys not because he's a moralist but likes loyalty.

It's like a side effect that gives the attributes he wants.

[PlaygroundLegend]

Originally Posted by mz.

I'll never understand the following, and I have been saying it forever:

Mangini demands high character. Fuck, he HARPS on it. Yet, he's, at best, kind of dirty and at worst, a fucking cheater who either knew about Belichick cheating his ass off or was complicit in said cheating. Not to mention the fact that he went narc on BB the minute he joined the Jets. Mangini is no choir boy, and nobody can argue against this (without looking foolish) yet we can't draft Dez Bryant because he had shitty parents. What a hypocrite. That's how you stay shitty...

Hell yes!

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by King of Kings

That's because Brian Cushing isn't a drug addict.

That all depends on how one defines sticking a needle into the body with the purpose of ingesting an unprescribed drug. We see a heroin user doing this and we don't hesitate to call him/her an addict right?

All I can think of is how the NFL wanted to make Shawn Merriman the poster boy of how you play sic em, sock em and sack em. Then we learned HOW he went from average LBer at Maryland to All Planet LBer virtually within a 15 month period - Merriman gained almost 70 pounds, lost bodyfat in the process and gained speed. You can ask Shep what I said about him pre-draft. It was along the lines of something smells REALLY fishy and if it sounds too good to be true it usually is.

Who knew the significance of "Lights Out" would pertain to 1 dirty drug test that would change everything? Merriman got pretty normal once he would be faced with regularized testing for the rest of his playing days.

I think the situation with Cushing is more of a disaster than many will want it to be because kids are seeing him as a millionaire from acing ALL the pre-draft fitness tests that upped his 1st round value. In the process, he became rookie of the year from the same lifestyle practices. It's a bad message that will trickle down into junior high schools. I'm kind of stunned I'm arguing with anybody about this. Do you want more knuckleheads like Bill Romanowski and Jim Haslett justifying their role models were junkies like the Steelers and today everyone is doing such a thing because the NFL allows it?

The SCARY thing is guys like Cushing and Merriman were extremely stupid; because countless players are already getting away with undetectable drugs like HGH today. There was a rationale from BOTH players thinking HGH wouldn't be enough for them to be better than average so they went the routes they went.

I'm not naive about the current problem taking place. There's a REASON the players don't want to be tested for HGH which has come up in recent player union discussions and it's not a positive one. Has anyone ever even CONSIDERED what else was taking place in the life of Big Ben once he went from a huiman version of Bambi with a blown out wheel to scrambling like Randall Cunningham just 3 weeks later? Even worse, a guy that was once seen as a NICE kid im Ohio and even in college is now repeatedly in situations where he is forceful with the ladies? Was he always a rapist at heart OR did this kind of emerge when his body began to add androgens and hormones that didn't belong?

If one researches all the disturbing stories about the Steelers whether it's Courson's "False Glory", researching the quality of life Mike Webster had after 20 years of steroid abuse or simply reading the SI Casket count of former Steelers - I'm not sure they're gonna think the Rooneys are such angels here on earth. For sharing all those Championships, they certainly don't seem like close group today at all. It also doesn't seem like Noll is very well liked. Seems like the 72 Dolphins are just opposte. They all LOVE and respect Shula. Most of them are still alive. I usually get lectured for daring to think the Rooneys were just concerned about their wallets from winning as the bottom line. It's not like they treated Big Ben the same way they treated Holmes now is it? Hmmmmm. Win at all costs? Nothing has changed there folks.
- Tom F.

[Flugel]

Originally Posted by mz.

I'll never understand the following, and I have been saying it forever:

Mangini demands high character. Fuck, he HARPS on it. Yet, he's, at best, kind of dirty and at worst, a fucking cheater who either knew about Belichick cheating his ass off or was complicit in said cheating. Not to mention the fact that he went narc on BB the minute he joined the Jets. Mangini is no choir boy, and nobody can argue against this (without looking foolish) yet we can't draft Dez Bryant because he had shitty parents. What a hypocrite. That's how you stay shitty...

The decision to not draft Dez Bryant had ZERO to do with his mother. It had more to do with his inability to put his football uniform on last season; AND his knack for being late for games and meetings. Even worse, his college coaches didn't give him glowing endorsements so there were some legit red flags. This KIND of player can hold an entire team hostage the way TO did the Eagles when he had them by the balls with gigantic salary commitment. If THAT example sucks I got a better one - Braylon Edwards & Dante Stallworth. Those 2 Divas are the reason we were stuck with the growing pains of inexperience at WR in 2009 like it or not.

Dez is very talented BUT I think some teams are scared about his decision making abilities to be quite honest MZ.

BB just got burned by THIS kind of player in Adalius Thomas.

You made some good points Mz. The irony about about Mangini alerting people about BB's hired cameras is that BB hasn't won a Championship since it all went down. In fact, they just lost in round 1 of the playoffs so we'll have to see if that wasn't a big secret of their success. Tom Brady certainly seemed more human as did their defense in 2009.

The ONLY BB pupil to WIN a championship elsewhere is Nick Saban - although Kirk Ferentz seems to be doing almost as impressive in the corn fields of iowa. Let's be REAL about the attraction of going to Iowa for 4 years of college vrs that of the Sunshine State or California or Texas or any of the great weather areas. Ohio State and Michigan have storied traditions with seating capacities of over 100,000. Anyway, Charlie Weis and RAC were fired recently as was Mangini after a 9-7 year. We chased the OC Davidson over to Carolina when we prematurely determined he was just another Mo Carthon.

I DO understand the need to have players you feel you can count on. That said, it sure is nice to have a cocky kid like a Webster Slaughter that can piss off a Steeler secondary before he burns it in overtime for the game winning score. A little swagger is welcomed when we're suure this guy will keep football as priority #1. Butch got burned by some of his decisions to neglect character AND injury reports so we gotta be careful.

I think Dawgfan nailed it when he explained the difference between BAD character and hyper competitive. I liked his take better than mine. I think I'd take a Ray Lewis type of talent inspite of what kind of person he might be off the field if I trusted his football passion would remain #1. I wouldn't trust TO though - he's more of a Me-O. Guys like that gotta suck as a teammate. We've seen SOME guys clean up their attitudes in new locations like Cedric Benson and even Randy Moss. We've seen others like Albert Haynesworth TOTALLY not getting it. He got his dream salary and became the most unmotivated player on the roster. That's why free agency can really burn you. Stallworth got 2 signining bonuses in Cleveland for a mere 17 receptions and 1 TD and yet nobody complains about him as much as Robiskie for some reason.

Did anyone see the Mike and Mike show when They were talking about Marcellus Wiley's 1st encounter with Bill Parcells? Mike Greenberg was saying that Wiley told him Parcells never shook his hand to greet him when they met and he was facing a chalkboard with his back to Wiley. He told Wiley to sit down and the first question out of BP's mouth was "do you do drugs?" Then he allegedly brought up Lawrence Taylor and said his biggest regret was he didn't make Lawrence Taylor a better person. Not sure if anyone knows this about Marcellus Wiley but he attended Columbia, which isn't the greatest FOOTBALL college but it's my understanding Ivy League in terms of academics. Wiley was a FA signee for Parcells in Dallas after being originally drafted by Buffalo.
- Tom F.